A willingness to save as many as will believe

Brightfame52 said:

God created some for destruction and the day of wrath and never for salvation

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God gave His law. So in that sense He created some for destruction. His law was the stumbling stone. There would be those who sought righteousness by works of the law and those who by faith would be the righteousness of God.

One God and Father of All said:

God gave His law. So in that sense He created some for destruction. His law was the stumbling stone. There would be those who sought righteousness by works of the law and those who by faith would be the righteousness of God.

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Again God created some for destruction, for eternal hell for their sins, never for salvation.

FutureAndAHope said:

22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

But did not God, "endure with much longsuffering" the vessel of wrath. Longsuffering in a biblical sense is always waiting, usually waiting for change.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

We see that vessels of wrath, "knew God", but did not take the action of believing him, but rather "did not glorify God", they then became blind.

Rom 1:21-22 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools,

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Good Day, FAH

" Longsuffering in a biblical sense is always waiting, usually waiting for change."

Not sure about that...

But in this case Paul tells us why God "suffers long" (in order to)

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

He then is Long suffering with the ones he created as vessels of wrath to show His wrath, and make known his power, for the purpose of his Glory known to the Vessels that he Mercies.

The point is IMHO, the vessels if Wrath always fulfill the purpose of the creator.


In Him,

Bill

Brightfame52 said:

Again God created some for destruction, for eternal hell for their sins, never for salvation.

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Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Jer 18 1The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the [a]wheel. 4And the vessel that he made of clay was [c]marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

5Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,10if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

11“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

Rescued One said:

Sinners must choose? Sinners don't care about God's desires. All sinners choose damnation.


John 3:13
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God's plans are better than man's.

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FutureAndAHope said:

This post is a swipe at the idea that God preselected a group of people for salvation before creation, and also at that time choose others for damnation, what is known as Calvinism. It is a fatalistic idea that man does not choose to follow God of free will, but rather God elects some to salvation, and elects others to damnation, and the people have no choice in the matter.

Country to this idea, the Bible is clear God gave Himself as a ransom for all men.

1Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

The above verse shows us that a) God’s desire is to save as many as receive Him, note b) He gave himself as a ransom for all. This shows that the “all men” being talked about is a reference to their salvation. Not some general form of “other salvation”.

The following scriptures show us that “all men” includes both “saved” and unsaved, and for “us” and the “whole world”.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.​

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1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

Not only this when Jesus speaks of His willingness to save, he states that it was “man not him”, that was unwilling.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!​

A Calvinist will say that God chooses some for damnation and others for salvation. Meaning God was unwilling to save the damned that He desired their destruction. That He only had a willingness to save the elect.

But Luke 12:38 above clearly shows that God “desired to save the children of Israel”, but they were in many cases “unwilling”. The following scripture also shows us that God has a willingness to save those who are straying, that contrary to Calvinism, God does not delight in the death of the wicked, that that is not his will.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

In light of this, we need to be careful in interpreting scripture in a fatalistic way. For Jesus clearly said “I wanted to gather your children together”, that is God’s will. He wanted salvation for people. But the people “were not willing”.

The same applies today, God wants salvation for all. But often people are not willing to follow Him.

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Rather than using verses, which didn’t exist until 1550 AD, we need to read all that applies on the subject, a teaching.

Teaching in the Villages Luke 13:22-35

And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers.’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last.”

Just at that time some Pharisees approached, saying to Him, “Go away, leave here, for Herod wants to kill You.” And He said to them, “Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.’ Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’



Luke 13 begins with”

A Call to Repent (1-9)

Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. And Jesus said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem? I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Why was Jesus in Galile? That question has a simple answer, His teachings and preachings were rejected. This beginning to Luke 13 tells us the same thing He tells Nicodemus in John 3, it requires repentance. In Bible studies I John 3:1-21 into two parts:

• Conversion (1-15)
• The Grace of God (16-21)

Part 1 are instructions to Nicodemus that Repentance is necessary step to Salvation.
Part 2 is what God has done to make salvation available to those of Faith.

Thought the New Testament we learn about the necessity of Faith and Repentance. I seldom use John 3:1-21 without using Matthew 16:24-28.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.

“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

The instruction of Jesus defines who will become a disciple of Jesus:
“If anyone wishes to come after Me,”

“A Calvinist will say that God chooses some for damnation and others for salvation. Meaning God was unwilling to save the damned that He desired their destruction. That He only had a willingness to save the elect.

But Luke 12:38 above clearly shows that God “desired to save the children of Israel”, but they were in many cases “unwilling”. The following scripture also shows us that God has a willingness to save those who are straying, that contrary to Calvinism, God does not delight in the death of the wicked, that that is not his will.” From your post.

I mentioned that I am putting together a study, if anyone would like to assist in it, they are welcome to join in.

One God, One Message, One Church will be the name of the collection.

Part 1 Amazing Grace
Part 2 A New life

Part 3 The Sermon on the Mount
(The Ultimate Guide for living your life as a Christian)

Joe josephperryg4@gmail,com

One God and Father of All said:

Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Jer 18 1The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying: 2“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the [a]wheel. 4And the vessel that he made of clay was [c]marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

5Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 6“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,10if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

11“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”

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No change, God has created for His Glory some to be vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction Rom 9 Pharoah is an example

Those whom God is willing to save, will be saved by Christ and they will believe. Believing comes with the saving, by Grace. Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So we believe by Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Salvation is by Faith, but we need to define Faith. Faith is far more than an acknowledgment.
Paul tells us: "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 Verses 2-38 provide many examples of the Faith that is necessary and closes with: "And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect." Hebrews 11:39-40.
More important is the examples Jesus provides, moving mountains and mustard seeds. The most important definition is the one that can change lives. John Newton wrote, "I once was lost, but now am found;" We must be able to say: "I once was, but now I am!" If others can't see it, you ain't get it.

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