A warning from a mother and father in Indiana

[BCP1928]

I haven't made any "presumptions"

but you seem to be making some claims here.

1. That people can be "born in the wrong body". OK, show me empirical proof of that, or what it would even look like, because that is a metaphysical claim

No, it's a psychological claim.

2. That gender dysphoria has nothing to do with upbringing, environment, or underlying neurosis / psychosis. So where does gender-dysphoria come from exactly? Are we going back into metaphysics?

Who said that?

There are countless studies on gender dysphoria --I don't need to start posting them here.

And even if, it could be proved that people are "born in the wrong body", it would STILL be unethical to subject them to sex-reassignment surgery, as it is impossible to change the biological sex of a human being

You don't think they know that?

 

[Merrill]

No, it's a psychological claim.

Who said that?

You don't think they know that?

so gender dysphoria is a psychological problem?

I think that is pretty much what I have been saying all along.

and it isn't what transgender advocates say --they say things like "my real self is female" or "I was born in the wrong body" --which is metaphysical nonsense.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I haven't made any "presumptions"

but you seem to be making some claims here.

1. That people can be "born in the wrong body". OK, show me empirical proof of that, or what it would even look like, because that is a metaphysical claim
2. That gender dysphoria has nothing to do with upbringing, environment, or underlying neurosis / psychosis. So where does gender-dysphoria come from exactly? Are we going back into metaphysics?

There are countless studies on gender dysphoria --I don't need to start posting them here.

And even if, it could be proved that people are "born in the wrong body", it would STILL be unethical to subject them to sex-reassignment surgery, as it is impossible to change the biological sex of a human being

Transgenderism is ideology. Gender Dysphoria is a disorder.

Why is it unethical? We have corrective surgery for all kinds of stuff.

 

[JustOneWay]

Really?

Show me where I "blamed transgendered people" of anything?

"you do realize that a segment of our society is pushing the idea that "to be really cool, you not only need to be gay, you have to be transgender"!"

Brainwashed.... How can one be brainwashed without placing blame on the one doing the brainwashing?

 

[Merrill]

Why is it unethical? We have corrective surgery for all kinds of stuff.

seriously?

we don't chop off the leg of a young boy because he wants to be a pirate

and we don't do corrective surgery on people who have nothing wrong with them.

cosmetic surgery should be reserved for adults over 18

 

[BCP1928]

so gender dysphoria is a psychological problem?

It's a problem mostly because of how the gender dysphoric are viewed and treated.

I think that is pretty much what I have been saying all along.

and it isn't what transgender advocates say --they say things like "my real self is female" or "I was born in the wrong body" --which is metaphysical nonsense.

And because saying that is an affront to your religious sensibilities they should shut up.

 

[Merrill]

"you do realize that a segment of our society is pushing the idea that "to be really cool, you not only need to be gay, you have to be transgender"!"

Brainwashed.... How can one be brainwashed without placing blame on the one doing the brainwashing?

so how do you explain a 20 fold increase in gender dysphoria among kids in the UK?

The US has seen a similar rise

you don't think it has anything to do with transgender billionaire Jennifer Pritzker donating hundreds of millions of dollars to transgender clinics, activist groups, causes, and media blitzes over the last 10 years?

 

[iluvatar5150]

seriously?

we don't chop off the leg of a young boy because he wants to be a pirate

and we don't do corrective surgery on people who have nothing wrong with them.

cosmetic surgery should be reserved for adults over 18

You've already acknowledged that gender dysphoria is a disorder. That's not really equivalent to "wanting to be a pirate" or having "nothing wrong", is it?

 

[BCP1928]

seriously?

we don't chop off the leg of a young boy because he wants to be a pirate

and we don't do corrective surgery on people who have nothing wrong with them.

cosmetic surgery should be reserved for adults over 18

I agree. But what do you do in the meantime, since treating them with compassion and understanding is ruled out? Granted that "the left" has dealt with the problem very badly, what does "the right" have to offer besides exclusion and cruelty?

 

[rambot]

I haven't made any "presumptions"

Depending on how you define "presumptions" (I will say "without study or reproducible support"), I would say you definitely did.

but you seem to be making some claims here.

1. That people can be "born in the wrong body". OK, show me empirical proof of that, or what it would even look like, because that is a metaphysical claim
2. That gender dysphoria has nothing to do with upbringing, environment, or underlying neurosis / psychosis. So where does gender-dysphoria come from exactly? Are we going back into metaphysics?

There are countless studies on gender dysphoria --I don't need to start posting them here.

Why not? I think EVERYONE would benefit from reading some ACTUAL, useful and pertinent literature.

And even if, it could be proved that people are "born in the wrong body", it would STILL be unethical to subject them to sex-reassignment surgery, as it is impossible to change the biological sex of a human being.

Just so it's clear, is biological sex defined basically just by "penis" or "vagina" or is there more complexity than that?

 

[Merrill]

It's a problem mostly because of how the gender dysphoric are viewed and treated.

And because saying that is an affront to your religious sensibilities they should shut up.

OK so now you are circling back to a metaphysical claim

you are saying that transgender people suffer from psychological problems because they are transgender

we see in the posts above the complete lack of logic or coherence in these claims regarding transgenderism. It reminds me of when the activist was asked "what is a woman" and responded with "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman"

This has nothing to do with my religious sensibilities: it is my refusal to accept irrationalist nonsense pushed by ideology

 

[iluvatar5150]

so how do you explain a 20 fold increase in gender dysphoria among kids in the UK?

The US has seen a similar rise

you don't think it has anything to do with transgender billionaire Jennifer Pritzker donating hundreds of millions of dollars to transgender clinics, activist groups, causes, and media blitzes over the last 10 years?

Sure, as it becomes more socially acceptable to express these kinds of feelings, more people are going to do so. That doesn't mean people are being brainwashed. The same thing happened with left-handedness in the first half of the 20th century:

Modeling to explore and challenge inherent assumptions when cultural norms have changed: a case study on left-handedness and life expectancy - Archives of Public Health

Background In 1991, Halpern and Coren claimed that left-handed people die nine years younger than right-handed people. Most subsequent studies did not find support for the difference in age of death or its magnitude, primarily because of the realization that there have been historical changes in...

archpublichealth.biomedcentral.com

Did we do something weird in the early 1900's to start birthing a bunch of left-handed people or did we just stop forcing people to be right-handed?

Is the current wave of kids claiming transgenderism affected by a desire to be novel and/or go along with the crowd? Probably to some degree. But we don't really know what the actual baseline is, so claiming that the current wave is purely a product of brainwashing is misguided at best.

 

[Merrill]

Depending on how you define "presumptions" (I will say "without study or reproducible support"), I would say you definitely did.




Why not? I think EVERYONE would benefit from reading some ACTUAL, useful and pertinent literature.


Just so it's clear, is biological sex defined basically just by "penis" or "vagina" or is there more complexity than that?

I am not going to get back into the debate over the reality of biological sex, or the ethics of "gender-affirming treatments" for minors

we have gone over that numerous times on this site, and many studies and citations have been provided by me and others.

no matter what I post here, you are not going to change your position, because your position is ideological, not scientific or philosophical

we don't need to post "studies" that prove biological sex is real, or that the world isn't flat.

 

[Merrill]

Sure, as it becomes more socially acceptable to express these kinds of feelings, more people are going to do so. That doesn't mean people are being brainwashed. The same thing happened with left-handedness in the first half of the 20th century:

Modeling to explore and challenge inherent assumptions when cultural norms have changed: a case study on left-handedness and life expectancy - Archives of Public Health

Background In 1991, Halpern and Coren claimed that left-handed people die nine years younger than right-handed people. Most subsequent studies did not find support for the difference in age of death or its magnitude, primarily because of the realization that there have been historical changes in...

archpublichealth.biomedcentral.com

View attachment 343049

Did we do something weird in the early 1900's to start birthing a bunch of left-handed people or did we just stop forcing people to be right-handed?

Is the current wave of kids claiming transgenderism affected by a desire to be novel and/or go along with the crowd? Probably to some degree. But we don't really know what the actual baseline is, so claiming that the current wave is purely a product of brainwashing is misguided at best.

so you are saying it is socially acceptable for kids to be transgender now?

I thought the general consensus among transgender activists was that it wasn't socially acceptable. And I agree with them: I suspect that a vast majority of Americans do not support giving kids puberty blockers, chemically castrating them, etc. And most would think that there is something wrong with a 10-year old who started saying he was born in the wrong body.

There is no analogy to be made between gender-dysphoria and left-handedness.

 

[JustOneWay]

so how do you explain a 20 fold increase in gender dysphoria among kids in the UK?

The US has seen a similar rise

you don't think it has anything to do with transgender billionaire Jennifer Pritzker donating hundreds of millions of dollars to transgender clinics, activist groups, causes, and media blitzes over the last 10 years?

We were talking about blame, and it looks like you want to blame Jennifer Pritzker. I don't care about a 20 fold increase in gender dysphoria among kids in the UK.

 

[BCP1928]

OK so now you are circling back to a metaphysical claim

you are saying that transgender people suffer from psychological problems because they are transgender

I am saying that being transgender is much more difficult than it needs to be because of the treatment they often receive.

we see in the posts above the complete lack of logic or coherence in these claims regarding transgenderism. It reminds me of when the activist was asked "what is a woman" and responded with "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman"

This has nothing to do with my religious sensibilities: it is my refusal to accept irrationalist nonsense pushed by ideology

And you care more about the ideology than you do of the actual experience of the actual children involved.

 

[rambot]

I am not going to get back into the debate over the reality of biological sex, or the ethics of "gender-affirming treatments" for minors

we have gone over that numerous times on this site, and many studies and citations have been provided by me and others.

no matter what I post here, you are not going to change your position, because your position is ideological, not scientific or philosophical

It sure is convenient that you can predict that so well. But, I mean, you are wrong. I could change my position. Frankly, if you say you posted "many studies and citations" and they were good, I would have definitely been swayed. But as I recall that thread, you didn't really address any of the counter points raised.

we don't need to post "studies" that prove biological sex is real, or that the world isn't flat.

Hey. I didn't plan to bring that up at ALL. In fact, I was hoping you would have ACTUALLY addressed the points I raised in my posts that were pertinent to our discussion before.

 

[iluvatar5150]

so you are saying it is socially acceptable for kids to be transgender now?

My impression is that, among kids, it's socially acceptable to question one's gender identity.

I thought the general consensus among transgender activists was that it wasn't socially acceptable. And I agree with them: I suspect that a vast majority of Americans do not support giving kids puberty blockers, chemically castrating them, etc. And most would think that there is something wrong with a 10-year old who started saying he was born in the wrong body.

Why are you jumping to medical interventions? Did you forget what we were talking about or are you trying to deliberate obfuscate the discussion?

Your question was, "so how do you explain a 20 fold increase in gender dysphoria among kids in the UK?"
I responded with, "as it becomes more socially acceptable to express these kinds of feelings, more people are going to do so."

We weren't talking about puberty blockers or castration. We were talking about how people feel about themselves.

There is no analogy to be made between gender-dysphoria and left-handedness.

Sure there is. I just made it.

 

[Merrill]

My impression is that, among kids, it's socially acceptable to question one's gender identity.




Why are you jumping to medical interventions? Did you forget what we were talking about or are you trying to deliberate obfuscate the discussion?

Your question was, "so how do you explain a 20 fold increase in gender dysphoria among kids in the UK?"
I responded with, "as it becomes more socially acceptable to express these kinds of feelings, more people are going to do so."

We weren't talking about puberty blockers or castration. We were talking about how people feel about themselves.



Sure there is. I just made it.

I don't think the dramatic rise in transgenderism among kids is simply a result of more social acceptance

that may play a small part

but there is also the incentives the medical field has in treating these kids (aka money), the widespread promotion of transgenderism by wealthy activists like Jennifer Pritzker, social media influencers, etc.

 

[DJWhalen]

I'm old school too, I live in Indiana and I don't blame the parent's. God made 2 sex's, male and female. God don't make mistake's. Trans anything is homosexual and that is a sin.