A TULIP Dilemma - 2 Corinthians 13:5

[theseed]

Verse 24 says: "He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life..."

I agree, John 3.16.

verse 29 says "those who do good deeds resrurrected to eternal life, those who committed evil deeds resurrected to judgment."

I agree, those who come into the light find that their good deeds were produced by God alone (John 3.21)

Verse 34 says: "I say these things that you may be saved.

I agree, the "word of Christ" is God's mode of sharing the Good News and working to bring others to Him. (Romans 10.17).

Verse 38 says, "You do not have His word abiding in you, BECAUSE you do not believe Him whom God sent."

· The word is God (John 1.1), the word became flesh (John 1.14), but no all hear the word (the seed) (John 5.24 8.51; Luke 8.11-18).



· Just has Jesus is lead by the Spirit and does nothing on his own intiative so too are we led by the Spirit and do nothing on our own intiative (Luke 4.1; John 5.30, 14.10).



· It is the word of Christ that cleanses, if it is recieved. (John 15.3).



· It is the Father that gives believers to the Son, and they keep his word (John 17.6).



· They are born from above and not part of the world (John 17.14) None of those who kept the word were not lost (John 18.9).



· Christ did not pray for the world, but only for believers, those whom the Father gave to the Son (John 17.9)

Verse 40 says, "You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have life, but you are UNWILLING to COME to Me that you MAY have life."

Yes, nobody has life without The Son John 1.9, 3.16, 14.6. Everyman that has the light, gets the light from Christ (John 1.9).

Verse 44 says "HOW can you believe WHEN you seek man's glory INSTEAD of God's glory?"

Christ is speaking to the Pharisees, who don't seek God. Why? So that prophecy might be fullfilled (John 15.25). The world hated Him without a cause.

Verse 46 says, "IF you HAD believed Moses (as you PRETEND you did), (THEN) you would believe ME; for Moses WROTE of Me."

Same thing, they don't see and they don't hear because they are blind, just has the world is (John 1.5). They do not come into the light because their good deeds are evil and they would be exposed, if they did they would find that thier good deeds are a work of God (John 3.18-21).

Now --- which one of those verses even HINTS that "they are doomed because God has not ELECTED them"?

First, you tell me which one says they are not elected? Which one says that God will never give them sight? You have a hidden premise.

removing forever the understanding "they must be ELECT" --- He is saying they ALL can BE elect! But He is REBUKING them for NOT believing.

Where do we find that Christ knows who is Elect and who is not? Where does he say that they are not elect? By definition, an election is where people cast votes, so if God elects, then by definition he casts a vote, he makes the decisions. And of course, he alone votes. But, how do we ever know who God elects? I see nothing is scripture that tells us who God elects, and who he does not. I only see marks of election. So you my friend, have commited a logical fallacy.

 

[marcie]

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[Bulldog]

Marcie, true Christians will continue in good works. It's just that it is not these wroks that save, it is faith that saves.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[marcie]

BUT THEY DONT SAVE YOU SO WHY SHOULD I CONTINUE...?????? IT DONT MATTET THEY DONT SAVE US ACCORDING TO THE MAJORITY HERE.


WORKS DONT SAVE, SO IF I FAIL .. I AM STILL SAVED CAUSE I LOVE GOD AND IF I DONT PRODUCE AND DONT LOVE GOD ... I AM STILL SAVED..


THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN TEACHING.

WHAT NOW I AM NOT SAVED.. I HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE.

I THOUGHT YOU CANT ONCE YOU BELIEVE

 

[Bulldog]

The point of doing them is because you are a new person. You are now a Christrian, and you live a moral life for God. That's what true faith in God does.

 

[marcie]

BULLDOG SAID .. Marcie, true Christians will continue in good works. It's just that it is not these wroks that save, it is faith that saves.


THIS IS MY FAVORITE QUOTE OF ALL TIME......


SO WHY CONTINUE IF THEY DONT SAVE YOU...???

IF TRUE CHRISTIANS CONTINUE WHY...

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THEY DONT.

CANT YOU TELL ME WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF WE DONT CONTINUE GOOD FRUITS.

OSAS CANT ANSWER THIS CAN THEY......??????

WHY CAUSE IT PROVES THEIR CRAZY, DISTORTED, TWISTED, NON LOGICAL BIZZARE THEORY RIGHT OUT.




I

 

[Bulldog]

Marcie, I answered "Why continue with them if they don't save you". It;s because as a Christian, you live a life in accordance with what pleases God.

 

[Bulldog]

Marcie, where do you find the concept of works saving in the Bible?

 

[marcie]

WHY WONT ANYONE ON THIS FORUM ANSWER THE ONE QUESTION.

IF I STOP PRODUCING AM I STILL SAVED,I HAVE BEEN A CHRISTIAN MY WHOLE LIFE, BAPTIZED CHURCH GOING LOVE JESUS WITH ALL MY HEART.


IF I STOP PRODUCING DO I STOP BEING A CHRISTIAN... WOULD THIS AFFECT MY OUTCOME OF SALVATION

YOU WILL NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION.

YES OR NO IF I STOP PRODUCING WILL MY OUTCOME BE AFFECTED.


I NEVER HEARD OF A GROUP WHO WILL NOT ANSWER ONE SIMPLE QUESTION.

YOU ANSWER IT WITH A STATMENT RATHER THAN AN ANSWER.

 

[Bulldog]

Look at my response to the thread you started.

Answer me this question marcie-where is the concept of works saving in the Bible?

 

[marcie]

THE COMMANDMENTS SAY WE SHALL FOLLOW THEM OR NOT GO INTO THE KINGDOM..

THOUSANDS OF VERSES IN MATTHEW, MARK LUKE , JOHN AND REVELATIONS.

 

[Bulldog]

I don't dispute that....

If we follow Jesus, we will be saved. If we don't we won't.

Except I'm not sure it's up in the thousands.

 

[Bulldog]

But that faith, or "following" is not a work.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[marcie]

BULLDOG SAID ;13

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I don't dispute that....

If we follow Jesus, we will be saved. If we don't we won't.THAN







Except I'm not sure it's up in the thousands.
THANK YOU BULLDOG YOU ANSWERED MY QUESTION ABOVE.....

YOU ARE NOW REPRESENTING A TRUE CHRISTIAN... AND FOLLOWER OF CHIRST

 

[nobdysfool]

WHY WONT ANYONE ON THIS FORUM ANSWER THE ONE QUESTION.

IF I STOP PRODUCING AM I STILL SAVED,I HAVE BEEN A CHRISTIAN MY WHOLE LIFE, BAPTIZED CHURCH GOING LOVE JESUS WITH ALL MY HEART.


IF I STOP PRODUCING DO I STOP BEING A CHRISTIAN... WOULD THIS AFFECT MY OUTCOME OF SALVATION

YOU WILL NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION.

YES OR NO IF I STOP PRODUCING WILL MY OUTCOME BE AFFECTED.


I NEVER HEARD OF A GROUP WHO WILL NOT ANSWER ONE SIMPLE QUESTION.

YOU ANSWER IT WITH A STATMENT RATHER THAN AN ANSWER.

marcie, you are not asking for an answer, you are demanding an answer in the equivalent of shouting, and then beating up anyone who doesn't give you the answer you want to hear.

Your salvation is not dependant on your works, it is dependant on faith. I don't know of a single Christian who produces fruit all the time, but they do produce fruit, if they are a Christian. Same with outward good works. Works are dependant on situations, opportunities, and factors not always controllable by the Christian. We don't do works to be seen of men to do them, or to gain the attention of men. Works that flow from faith are done unto God, and it is God who rewards, not men. Faith in Christ is what matters, because without it, all the works and fruits in the world won't save you. This is what we've been trying to get accross to you for a week now. True faith in Christ will produce works and fruit, but works and fruit do not produce faith. You are saved by faith UNTO good works. The faith is the key, the the most important part.

If you are a Christian, and bedfast, paralyzed from the neck down, what good works are you going to do? About the only one you can do is pray, and witness to anyone who comes to see you. What if you can't even speak? Does the fact that you can't DO any good works mean that your faith is of no effect? It is not in doing, but in believing, that your salvation is established.

 

[Ben johnson]

Very well said, NBF.