A troubling confession - Extra ecclesiam nulla salus!

[Xeno.of.athens]

Just as God had his old covenant church settled within the time of Moses and Joshua. From that point forward it was man who made additions and changes.

What about the prophets?

 

[ozso]

What about the prophets?

The prophets were sent by God to get Israel back on track. They also gave Messianic prophecy that was fulfilled in Christ. Most of the OT points to the fulfillment and completion of God’s plan through Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Primary doctrines or a secondary doctrine?

The teachings and practices of the churches on liturgy, justification, the Eucharist, the real presence, prayers over the Eucharist, Mary, the sacraments, etc.

 

[fhansen]

I thought always meant always as in from the beginning.

That what they meant. Now, if the rest of the world would always agree and comply....

 

[fhansen]

I'm not quite understanding your preoccupation with Arianism, to where you constantly mention it

It's a perfect case in point. Arianism was super popular, dominating, in fact. Constantine, himself, I believe, leaned towards it, and two of his sons, at least, who were appointed kings over various parts of the Roman Empire, persecuted non-Arians. Many bishops and possibly most believers favored Arianism while a minority, including Athanasius of Alexandria, opposed it, and was kicked out of his diocese five times for doing so. The question of Christ's deity simply hadn't been any kind of major topic on the minds of people up to this time. In any case Arians used Scripture to support their views and it was feared at one time that the belief may take over the whole world. 4 or 5 councils would be held addressing Christology, the first being the very first Ecumenical council at Nicaea, the last at Chalcedon, I believe. all firmly denouncing the Arian position along with other errors that had popped up. Even after all that it took decades if not centuries to finally stomp it out, at least until the JWs came along. And it took the church, led by the Holy Spirit, relying also on Scripture along with the revelation as they believed the world had received it with the advent of Christ, to define the doctrine of the Trinity and make that happen.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's a perfect case in point. Arianism was super popular, dominating, in fact. Constantine, himself, I believe, leaned towards it, and two of his sons, at least, who were appointed kings over various parts of the Roman Empire, persecuted non-Arians. Many bishops and possibly most believers favored Arianism while a minority, including Athanasius of Alexandria, opposed it, and was kicked out of his diocese five times for doing so. The question of Christ's deity simply hadn't been any kind of major topic on the minds of people up to this time. In any case Arians used Scripture to support their views and it was feared at one time that the belief may take over the whole world. 4 or 5 councils would be held addressing Christology, the first being the very first Ecumenical council at Nicaea, the last at Chalcedon, I believe. all firmly denouncing the Arian position along with other errors that had popped up. Even after all that it took decades if not centuries to finally stomp it out, at least until the JWs came along. And it took the church, led by the Holy Spirit, relying also on Scripture along with the revelation as they believed the world had received it with the advent of Christ, to define the doctrine of the Trinity and make that happen.

And this is why "outside the church there is no salvation". Those who favour Nestorianism over accurate Christology are becoming more numerous - they favour Nestorianism as part of their beliefs which are designed to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as Jesus' mother but not as the mother of God. Arianism is less common nowadays, yet it is present, and I have met evangelicals who will affirm "the godhead" but refuse "the trinity" which they say is not a bible word. Some avoid the use of a cross and are appalled by a crucifix as "idolatry". We are living in a time where many professing Christians do not know their faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

And this is why "outside the church there is no salvation".

No, outside Jesus there is no salvation.
A Christian may have been "going to church" for years but left, for all sorts of reasons. It wouldn't mean that they were no longer saved.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, outside Jesus there is no salvation.

Yes, outside of the body of Christ which is the church, there is no salvation.

 

[trophy33]

Depends on the definition of church.

The spiritual, mystical body of true believers? Sure, thats the place where salvation is given.

Physical building or being an official member of a specific denomination, participating in some specific church liturgy, for example the RCC mass? No, its not where/how salvation is given.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, outside of the body of Christ which is the church, there is no salvation.

No, outside of Jesus.
His is the only name which saves, Acts 4:12. He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.
If someone hears about, and accepts, Jesus but doesn't find a church, or one which suits them, or they were to die before they could attend church, they would still be saved.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, outside of Jesus.
His is the only name which saves, Acts 4:12. He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.
If someone hears about, and accepts, Jesus but doesn't find a church, or one which suits them, or they were to die before they could attend church, they would still be saved.

Does all that mean that you do not believe that the church is the body of Christ?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Depends on the definition of church.

The spiritual, mystical body of true believers? Sure, thats the place where salvation is given.

Physical building or being an official member of a specific denomination, participating in some specific church liturgy, for example the RCC mass? No, its not where/how salvation is given.

I do not share your views on what the church is; the church is not buildings, though she owns buildings at present. The church on Earth is not a mystical body, it is people who are part of a community that is the church which is the body of Christ.

 

[trophy33]

I do not share your views on what the church is; the church is not buildings, though she owns buildings at present. The church on Earth is not a mystical body, it is people who are part of a community that is the church which is the body of Christ.

Thats fine, I do not share many of your views, too.

Being a part of a community does not make somebody a Christian, like being in a garage does not make you a car.

 

[fhansen]

And this is why "outside the church there is no salvation". Those who favour Nestorianism over accurate Christology are becoming more numerous - they favour Nestorianism as part of their beliefs which are designed to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as Jesus' mother but not as the mother of God. Arianism is less common nowadays, yet it is present, and I have met evangelicals who will affirm "the godhead" but refuse "the trinity" which they say is not a bible word. Some avoid the use of a cross and are appalled by a crucifix as "idolatry". We are living in a time where many professing Christians do not know their faith.

Yes, the free-for-all, based primarily if not solely on Scripture without regard to the church, seems to be broadening, at a quicker pace now.

 

[fhansen]

Thats fine, I do not share many of your views, too.

Being a part of a community does not make somebody a Christian, like being in a garage does not make you a car.

True, and yet garages still have their practical benefits or role to play. In the case of a visible church unity of beliefs can be maintained only in that case, under one recognized "garage".

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, the free-for-all, based primarily if not solely on Scripture without regard to the church, seems to be broadening, at a quicker pace now.

Perhaps it is a sign of the end of this age, or not, it is hard to tell. But the Lord did teach that many would fall away before the end of the ages, and even though it has happened before we cannot feel safe for that reason, the many that are falling away now may well be a sign of the "last days", as many protestants say.

 

[ozso]

And this is why "outside the church there is no salvation". Those who favour Nestorianism over accurate Christology are becoming more numerous - they favour Nestorianism as part of their beliefs which are designed to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as Jesus' mother but not as the mother of God. Arianism is less common nowadays, yet it is present, and I have met evangelicals who will affirm "the godhead" but refuse "the trinity" which they say is not a bible word. Some avoid the use of a cross and are appalled by a crucifix as "idolatry". We are living in a time where many professing Christians do not know their faith.

Yep all them 21 century Arians and Nestorians running around. Gotta beat em off with a stick.

 

[ozso]

Does all that mean that you do not believe that the church is the body of Christ?

The body of Christ isn't a building.

 

[ozso]

True, and yet garages still have their practical benefits or role to play. In the case of a visible church unity of beliefs can be maintained only in that case, under one recognized "garage".

Yeah but the thing is the garage is only recognized by the garage.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The body of Christ isn't a building.

Yeah, we said that before.