A tough questions for a blind man...

[Cribstyl]

First of all why do you call the clean/unclean laws a health message? Does the Bible mention health? God used all kinds of laws and signs to separate Israel from the other nations, many of them SDA's don't follow any more, either.

The word "man" can and does indeed sometimes mean "man specific", and not all mankind. Jesus was speaking with a Jewish audience, and are not Jews men?. Of all the Bible translations I checked, none of them said "mankind".

Eye opening truth

 

[k4c]

Eye opening truth

Are you kidding...

The wages of sin is death...

Sin is a faithful boss who pays on time.

If you don't care for your body you will be paid.

If you violate the priciples of holiness defined in God's Law, you will be paid but it won't be by God, it will be by your true master, sin.

The consequences of sin is built into creation itself.

God told Adam that if he ate of the tree he would die. He didn't say' "If you eat of the tree I will kill you".

Eating of the tree of the knowlegde of good and evil is symbolic for man determining what is good or evil, as opposed to what God says, through the conscience.

 

[ricker]

It seems to me, like many people I hear on these forums, God is sending strong delusion so that you should believe a lie.

There is a way about sinful man that has the ablility to reason away truth that has been plainly presented by God. When this is done, God sends strong delusion so that you will believe what you are saying.

Call me deluded if you want, but in the context of Jesus speaking with a bunch of Jews, "man" could easily not mean "mankind, especially with all the other witness of Scripture showing it was exclusively for Israel.

When the Bible speaks of somethng being for all mankind it is clear. For example:
Matt 28: 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2: 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,

Titus 2 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.



Since you are speaking of strong delusions, let's see what the Bible says:
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

God bless!

 

[ricker]

Are you kidding...

The wages of sin is death...

Sin is a faithful boss who pays on time.

If you don't care for your body you will be paid.

If you violate the priciples of holiness defined in God's Law, you will be paid but it won't be by God, it will be by your true master, sin.

The consequences of sin is built into creation itself.

God told Adam that if he ate of the tree he would die. He didn't say' "If you eat of the tree I will kill you".

Eating of the tree of the knowlegde of good and evil is symbolic for man determining what is good or evil, as opposed to what God says, through the conscience.

You're kinda rambling, at least I'm not sure what you are trying to say. No Christian I know advocates sinning.

 

[Cribstyl]

Are you kidding...

The wages of sin is death...

Sin is a faithful boss who pays on time.

If you don't care for your body you will be paid.

If you violate the priciples of holiness defined in God's Law, you will be paid but it won't be by God, it will e by your true master, sin.

The consequences of sin is built into creation itself.

God told Adam that if he ate of the tree he would die. He doesn't say' "if you eat of the tree I will kill you".

Eating of the tree of the knowlegde of good and evil is symbolic for man determining what is good or evil, as opposed to what God says, through the conscience.

No, I'm not kidding but, do you ever listen to yourself?

Ricker ask why call"clean/unclean laws a health message?
I agreed with Ricker because having the death penalty attached is about obedience to a law rather that promoting health.

Here's the socalled "health message" about drinking wine....


Lev 10:8¶And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Lev 10:10And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

Lev 10:11And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

Aaron the High priest was commanded by God to teach what are known are as the ceromonial law ("statute") not health laws.
The penalty for breaking those commandment (statutes) was to seperate them from the people or death. I dont consider that a health message.

The reason that God gave these commandments was NOT as a health message but rather to establish what is clean and unclean and what is Holy and what defiles.

Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
Lev 11:44 For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Lev 11:45 For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy.
Lev 11:46¶This [is] the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

 

[Cribstyl]

Call me deluded if you want, but in the context of Jesus speaking with a bunch of Jews, "man" could easily not mean "mankind, especially with all the other witness of Scripture showing it was exclusively for Israel.

When the Bible speaks of somethng being for all mankind it is clear. For example:
Matt 28: 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2: 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,

Titus 2 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.



Since you are speaking of strong delusions, let's see what the Bible says:
14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

God bless!

I concur..this response is supported with scripture (Word of God is truth, commentary can have motives, you better ask somebody)

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Call me deluded if you want, but in the context of Jesus speaking with a bunch of Jews, "man" could easily not mean "mankind, especially with all the other witness of Scripture showing it was exclusively for Israel.

When the Bible speaks of somethng being for all mankind it is clear. For example:
Matt 28: 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2: 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions,

Titus 2 11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Couldn't the term 'all people' mean all the Jews? Just sayin'...

If the word 'man' refers to Jews only then I guess salvation is only for them.

Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Cribstyl]

Couldn't the term 'all people' mean all the Jews? Just sayin'...

If the word 'man' refers to Jews only then I guess salvation is only for them.

Rom 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

ECR, If you're going to argue what a word means, at least do some homework and make sure it's being used in your example.
I'm just saying....

Rom 10:10For1063 with the heart2588man believeth4100 unto1519 righteousness1343; and1161 with the mouth4750 confession is made3670 unto1519 salvation4991

The word for 'man' used in Mark 2:27 is anthrōpos
AV — man 552, not tr 4, misc 3
Mar 2:27And2532 he said3004 unto them846, The sabbath4521 was made1096 for1223 man444, and not3756 man444 for1223 the sabbath4521:

Yes, you can argue that the word "man" can and is used in a plural tense in many of it's uses.

The context in which "man" is used in Mark 2:27, is relative to the"singular vernacular" of the complete statement made by Jesus:


Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Mar 2:28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


In this context Jesus is defending Himself against the Pharisee who thought they had authority over Him. They were acusing Jesus and His disciples of breaking the law. 2:24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? Accusation: "Behold" Hey" Why are you allowing your men to break the law?"

Jesus uses the scriptures to show the Pharisees who has authority and could perform works on the Sabbath dayMar 2:25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

Some commentaries fail to see that Jesus is establishing only who has authority over the sabbath.
Jesus is not denying that going through the corn fields on the sabbath day was lawful to do.
Jesus is saying and implying that the High priest has authority over the sabbath because of all the works a priest is to perform on the sabbath. A preist, slaughter the sacrifices, offers burnt offerings,...... etc.
Mar 2:26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

The harmony of 3gospels expands this lesson and calls the OT scripture from 1Sa 21:6 "the law". It even goes farther and say the temple was profaned, but the preist is blameless. Therfore Christ is blameless.
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

Mat 12:6But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple.
Matthews account show that Jesus continued His defense by claiming His authority over the Cheif high priest in the temple.

Will continue comments in next post.....

Mat 12:7But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

 

[Cribstyl]

Mat 12:7But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Jesus presents God's words to the Pharisees. If you knew what "I will have mercy and not sacrifice means" you would not have accused the inocent.

This was now the second time in Matthews Gospel that Jesus told the Pharisee this....Mat 9:13But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.



( Disclaimer:K4c and others dont try to share wisdom from the word. They use scriptures for word content only to prove what they're saying.
I expect him and others to reject commentary that does line up with the word. )

What Jesus was explaining by pointed to these lessons in the bible;

Hsa 6:6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Isa 1:11To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

Isa 1:12When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Isa 1:13Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].
Isa 1:15And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Isa 1:16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Isa 1:17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.




Mat 12:8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

 

[Cribstyl]

 

[k4c]

The carnal mind is dead and won't obey the Law. But the one who is born of the Spirit and walks according to the Spirit, will.

I think the best thing you can do is seek God for His enlightenment and allow the Bible to speak for itself without you forcing it to say what you don't want it to say. While you're doing this it would be better for you to stay off these forums so you can hear from God.

 

[Cribstyl]

The carnal mind is dead and won't obey the Law. But the one who is born of the Spirit and walks according to the Spirit, will.

I think the best thing you can do is seek God for His enlightenment and allow the Bible to speak for itself without you forcing it to say what you don't want it to say. While you're doing this it would be better for you to stay off these forums so you can hear from God.

I'm just like you, a big mouth. May God help us with more wisdom.....

I try to live my life in constant worship and study of God's word. I have enough wisdom not to judge you because I ask God daily to forgive me of my sins.
You need to judge yourself rather than trying to hide behind sabbath the ten commandments.
Obviously, you're so used to twisting the facts that you'll never stop arguing and condemning people about God's word.

As usual, I'll be here to correct you when you condemn and misrepresent me. (I'm addicted, god help me)

It's just like you not to respond to my post on what God's word say in context. If you disagree with my comments, why not reference what I say as unscriptural?

I will reply to those who are not too righteous and dont know it all, (like me) and are willing to let God's word be true.
It has been fruitless to try to have a dialog with you, because you're running scared of that the truth will catch up. You're getting less reasonable and more dangerous.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The context in which "man" is used in Mark 2:27, is relative to the"singular vernacular" of the complete statement made by Jesus:

My concordance says that 'anthropos' means human being...


ἄνθρωπος from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being
Derivation: from G435 and ὤψ (the countenance)

My bad for the previous scripture quote, Biblegateway doesn't highlight supplied words... here's another for you to consider.

Matt 4:4
But1161 he answered611 and said2036 , It is written1125 , Man444 shall21980 not3756 live2198 by1909 bread740 alone3441, but235 by1909 every3956 word4487 that proceedeth1607 out of1223 the mouth4750 of God2316.

There are over 500 references of G444 that all speak in the plural, not singualr as you have said. If this is true, then does not the verse from Mark 2:27 include all mankind?

 

[ricker]

Sorry, double post.

 

[ricker]

My concordance says that 'anthropos' means human being...


ἄνθρωπος from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being
Derivation: from G435 and ὤψ (the countenance)

My bad for the previous scripture quote, Biblegateway doesn't highlight supplied words... here's another for you to consider.

Matt 4:4
But1161 he answered611 and said2036 , It is written1125 , Man444 shall21980 not3756 live2198 by1909 bread740 alone3441, but235 by1909 every3956 word4487 that proceedeth1607 out of1223 the mouth4750 of God2316.

There are over 500 references of G444 that all speak in the plural, not singualr as you have said. If this is true, then does not the verse from Mark 2:27 include all mankind?

Where exactly did you get this information? I once read that the greek word used here could mean a certain group of men or people as well as mankind.

In the context of Jesus talking to Jews about Jewish law the term could well mean Jewish people.

I can't find any translation of the Bible that says "mankind" for Mark 2:27. If that is what the greek word means, there has been a whole lot of mistranslations.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Where exactly did you get this information? I once read that the greek word used here could mean a certain group of men or people as well as mankind.

In the context of Jesus talking to Jews about Jewish law the term could well mean Jewish people.

I can't find any translation of the Bible that says "mankind" for Mark 2:27. If that is what the greek word means, there has been a whole lot of mistranslations.

Jesus wasn't just teaching the Jews, He was also laying the foundation for His church. It's the duality of scripture, immediate application and future application.

Again I ask...
There are over 500 references of G444 that all speak in the plural, not singualr as you have said. If this is true, then does not the verse from Mark 2:27 include all mankind?

 

[ricker]

Jesus wasn't just teaching the Jews, He was also laying the foundation for His church. It's the duality of scripture, immediate application and future application.

Again I ask...
There are over 500 references of G444 that all speak in the plural, not singualr as you have said. If this is true, then does not the verse from Mark 2:27 include all mankind?

I ask you again, where do you get this information?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I ask you again, where do you get this information?

Sorry bout that... hope this helps.

G444 - Strong's Greek Lexicon

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[ricker]

G444 - Strong's Greek Lexicon

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

G444 ἄνθρωπος - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number



ἄνθρωποςmanfacedἄνθρωπος from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being
Derivation: from G435 and ὤψ (the countenance;
KJV Usage: certain, man. G435 G3700
Thayer: 1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman


#2 allows the verse could be about someone other than mankind.

 

[k4c]

G444 ἄνθρωπος - Strong's Greek Lexicon Number

ἄνθρωποςmanfacedἄνθρωπος from G3700); man-faced, i.e. a human being
Derivation: from G435 and ὤψ (the countenance;
KJV Usage: certain, man. G435 G3700
Thayer: 1) a human being, whether male or female
1a) generically, to include all human individuals
1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order
1b1) of animals and plants
1b2) of from God and Christ
1b3) of the angels
1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin
1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity
1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul
1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God
1g) with reference to sex, a male
2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one
3) in the plural, people
4) joined with other words, merchantman

#2 allows the verse could be about someone other than mankind.

The Strong's number, G444, can refer to human beings, male or female. It can also refer to animals. Since it can refer to human beings, male or female, as well as, animals we would have to say, according the to the fourth commandment, Jesus was using the term (man) to identify mankind, which would include all human beings (including Adam & Eve), male and female, as well as, animals. Just as the fourth commandment says.

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

Now don't try to say Jesus was referring to Jewish cattle.