A thought or two about Infant Baptism

[ViaCrucis]

There is no point in beating this dead horse further. I understand your eisegetical approach to this passage and I believe that you understand my exegetical approach.

Well that was an uncomfortable paragraph to read. It had all the vibes of "I thank you Lord that I am not a sinner like all these other people, especially that tax collector over there."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

We do not know in the language of the first century if infants were included as part of the "whole Household" and there is reason to question that. 1 Timothy 3:12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. There is a conjunction between his children and household which suggests the deacon's children were not included in the household.

What? A conjunction means "not included."? The definition of a conjunction IS INCLUSION.

Are you saying every time the word "and" is used the noun preceding the conjunction is not included? So if I were to say "I like ice cream and bananas," it really means "I like bananas." This is nonsense.

You fail to realize that Paul links children and households together TWICE in 1 Tim. 3 (v1) [a pastor] He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. Here we have a word order reversal of "children" and "household" to "household" and "children." Using your own twisted logic----are you saying in your words "here is a conjunction between his household and children which suggests the deacon "household" were not included with children.

This is nonsense.

Individuals can get away with this kind of interpretation on CF, but at Anytown High School, the person would get an "F" by an English teacher.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

The person who undergoes baptism is far from passive. He or she, at a minimum, must arrange for the rite to be performed and get themselves to the sacred location. They must unwittingly or willingly permit the priest to perform the rite.

If, in fact, no effort was required, then God would simply bestow His baptismal grace upon all mankind in their passive state, without any fuss or bother on the part of people.

Yeap. Credo's always want credit for something they can't credit for.

In the rite of baptism, ALL recipients are passive. All. Baptism is done to them. No person baptizes himself. The definition of baptism is three things: Water, the true name of God placed upon the person and ANOTHER CHRISTIAN BAPTIZING YOU.

It is like open heart surgery. Recipients are passive.

Some individuals want work-righteousness credits for their baptism....faint sounds of Pelagianism.

 

[bling]

What? A conjunction means "not included."? The definition of a conjunction IS INCLUSION.

Are you saying every time the word "and" is used the noun preceding the conjunction is not included? So if I were to say "I like ice cream and bananas," it really means "I like bananas." This is nonsense.

You fail to realize that Paul links children and households together TWICE in 1 Tim. 3 (v1) [a pastor] He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity. Here we have a word order reversal of "children" and "household" to "household" and "children." Using your own twisted logic----are you saying in your words "here is a conjunction between his household and children which suggests the deacon "household" were not included with children.

This is nonsense.

Individuals can get away with this kind of interpretation on CF, but at Anytown High School, the person would get an "F" by an English teacher.

You say: "I like ice cream and bananas", which is a great example because Bananas are not ice cream or any part of ice cream. In 1 Tim. 3:12 the children were not included in the household shown by there being a conjunction between them.
In English we might say a person is smart and intelligent where smart and intelligent has the same meaning to them, but I have not found that to be the case in the Greek, but it has been a long time since I studied this.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I'm going to stay as far away from this conversation...

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm going to stay as far away from this conversation...

From your nickname it seems that you may reject the idea of the sacraments as symbols and metaphors but nothing more, is that so?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

From your nickname it seems that you may reject the idea of the sacraments as symbols and metaphors but nothing more, is that so?

Sacraments as a symbol is unbiblical. Why? The greek word for symbol is "symbolia" and the word IS NOT found in the NT nor in the LXX. No where does the NT describe a sacrament as a symbol. Those that do describe baptism or the Lord's supper as a symbol, do so by theological innovation.

The contemporary usage of the word "metaphor" carries the same baggage. A metaphor is a particular figure of speech that EXPANDS MEANING IN LANGUAGE. Modern usage ignores this and defines a metaphor as figure of speech that CHANGES MEANING. Nothing could be further from the truth. So when credos say the sacraments are metaphorical, they are saying the intended meaning must be changed to something else.

Grammar can easily change the intended meaning of language by simply changing the verb to another verb. VERBS CHANGE MEANING IN LANGUAGE NOT METAPHORS.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Yes, baptism is washing with water and the word. It brings regeneration. The flood is not baptism, but its washing action which washed away the filth of the fallen and deeply sinful creation is an analogy of washing away the filth of sin in baptism. The thing to grasp is that the flood's waters are analogous to baptism but they are not baptism.

Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?

 

[Valletta]

Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?

The cloud and the flood waters were signs of what was happening. The Bible says the flood indeed prefigured Baptism, and water is the typical sign of Baptism.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?

We have, in the OT both the Flood and the waters of the Red Sea which have been viewed as types of baptism. Curiously, both the Flood and the Red Sea were primarily destructive in nature - eliminating both all but eight people in the Flood, and eliminating Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea. I personally do not perceive any destruction with the water of baptism, do you? It seems that there might some sort of general metaphor, at best.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?

Exodus is a different situation from the one under discussion in Peter's comments; he was writing about the flood of Noah's day recorded in Genesis.
1 Peter 3:

18 It was thus that Christ died as a ransom, paid once for all, on behalf of our sins, he the innocent for us the guilty, so as to present us in God’s sight. In his mortal nature he was done to death, but endowed with fresh life in his spirit,​

19 and it was in his spirit that he went and preached to the spirits who lay in prison.​

20 Long before, they had refused belief, hoping that God would be patient with them, in the days of Noe. That ark which Noe was then building, in which a few souls, eight in all, found refuge as they passed through the waves,✻​

vv. 19-20: It is certain that this passage represents the holy patriarchs as living in a place of detention, neither heaven nor hell, till our Lord came (cf. Mt. 27.52, 53). It is not clear why the Apostle concentrates his attention on the contemporaries of Noe, or how those who had refused belief attained salvation afterwards; it seems best to suppose that they were incredulous while the ark was being built, and repented when it was too late to escape the Deluge. ‘Hoping that God would be patient with them’; in the Greek, apparently, ‘while God’s patience waited for them’. ‘As they passed through the waves’; some would translate ‘by means of water’, but this does not apply to the story in Genesis; Christian baptism typifies passing through the waters of death (cf. I Cor. 10.2).​

21 was a type of the baptism which saves us now. Our baptism is not a putting away of outward defilement; it is the test which assures us of a good conscience before God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.✻​

‘The test which assures us of a good conscience’; the Greek might also mean ‘the petition for a good conscience’.​

22 He sits, now, at the right hand of God, annihilating death, to make us heirs of eternal life; he has taken his journey to heaven, with all the angels and powers and princedoms made subject under his feet.✻​

The words ‘annihilating (literally, swallowing up) death, to make us heirs of eternal life’ are not found in the Greek manuscripts.​

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I personally do not perceive any destruction with the water of baptism, do you?

Martin Luther's famous FLOOD PRAYER.

Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name) according to Your boundless mercy and bless him with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in him which has been inherited from Adam and which he himself has committed since would be drowned and die. Grant that he be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, he would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Martin Luther's famous FLOOD PRAYER.

Almighty and eternal God, according to Your strict judgment You condemned the unbelieving world through the flood, yet according to Your great mercy You preserved believing Noah and his family, eight souls in all. You drowned hard-hearted Pharaoh and all his host in the Red Sea, yet led Your people Israel through the water on dry ground, prefiguring this washing of Your Holy Baptism. Through the Baptism in the Jordan of Your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, You sanctified and instituted all waters to be a blessed flood, and a lavish washing away of sin. We pray that You would behold (name) according to Your boundless mercy and bless him with true faith by the Holy Spirit that through this saving flood all sin in him which has been inherited from Adam and which he himself has committed since would be drowned and die. Grant that he be kept safe and secure in the holy ark of the Christian Church, being separated from the multitude of unbelievers and serving Your name at all times with a fervent spirit and a joyful hope, so that, with all believers in Your promise, he would be declared worthy of eternal life, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Thanks! That is a wonderful prayer. Luther really was an amazing Christian man.

 

[eleos1954]

Question: I always thought the Exodus cloud and the Flood waters were real baptisms via Type and Anti Type. I understand the antitype is always greater, but due to the fact that the NT mentions baptism as a type, seems to be greater than being "analogous." In otherwords, did the cloud and the flood waters convey any of the promises attached to NT baptism on OT recipients?

Baptism by water does not save a person ..... baptism is symbolic and serves as a public declaration that one has chosen to follow the ways of the Lord. Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

The flood water event can be seen as symbolic of what was to come (baptizing in the name of Jesus).

The old testament are things concealed and the new testament are things revealed. The old testament was pointing to the Messiah to come (since the fall of Adam and Eve).

Jesus said ...

John 5:39
New King James Version
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

baptism is symbolic and serves as a public declaration that one has chosen to follow the ways of the Lord.

I am curious to know what scriptures teach this doctrine?

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Baptism by water does not save a person ..... baptism is symbolic

The Greek word for symbol is symbolium. Symbolium is NOT found in the NT. Nor is it found in the LXX. So then how is Baptism symbolic of anything in the NT? Please cite chapter and verse where you get this belief from.

serves as a public declaration that one has chosen to follow the ways of the Lord.

No where does Scripture state baptism is a PUBLIC DECLARATION. Nowhere. Please cite chapter and verse for this belief.

This is not to say, the Sacraments are not a public testimony of a believers faith…they are! But the Baptists and American Evangelicals got the wrong Sacrament! It is the other Sacrament.

I Cor 11:26 "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you PROCLAIM the Lord’s death until he comes."

Scripture clearly states it is in the Lord's Supper, we testify publicly to our faith. The NT doesn't speak of baptism in this way. No where does baptism equate to a public testimony of ones faith. No where.

The reason why a believers public proclamation is in the Lord's Supper and not in baptism is simple. In partaking of the Holy Communion a believer is active, and in baptism the believer is passive. No Christian baptizes himself. Never.

Receiving the Lord’s Supper is the most public act of worship we do on Sunday. We are active in receiving the Lord’s supper as Jesus says, “Take eat” and “Drink.” And yet we are passive in the its blessings.

In baptism, we are passive. We never baptize ourselves. Someone else baptizes us. Even the blessing we get in baptism are passively given to us…Romans 6 says we are united with Christ death burial and resurrection. We don’t unite ourselves to his event, God does. We are passive. God is active.

And yet even those that baptize us are passive because ministers are seen as instruments who act in the place and at the command of Christ when they administer the baptism.

However, a baptism itself (the application of water, with accompanying words) is a statement by God (through the church) to and about the person being baptized, not a statement by that person.

Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Oh yes it is. Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation but it is necessary for salvation.

Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever Jesus has instituted and commanded it is to be done. God binds all Christians to be baptized, therefore baptism IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

Having said that, Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation because the way God instituted it. Certain persons by definition are excluded from being baptized. The unborn. If were baptism were absolutely necessary for salvation, all unborn who die before birth would be excluded from salvation.

The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

True faith always results in baptism.

However, outright rejection of baptism in tantamount to rejection of God himself, thus no true faith can really be present. Outright rejection of Christ’s command is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit, since baptism promises the Holy Spirit as a gift. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief.

We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.

The Christian should NEVER think that Baptism is not necessary for Christian life as the gift of the Holy Spirit is contained within.

The flood water event can be seen as symbolic of what was to come

Again, the Greek word "symbol" is not found in the NT. Where do you get this stuff from?

 

[eleos1954]

The Greek word for symbol is symbolium. Symbolium is NOT found in the NT. Nor is it found in the LXX. So then how is Baptism symbolic of anything in the NT? Please cite chapter and verse where you get this belief from.


No where does Scripture state baptism is a PUBLIC DECLARATION. Nowhere. Please cite chapter and verse for this belief.

This is not to say, the Sacraments are not a public testimony of a believers faith…they are! But the Baptists and American Evangelicals got the wrong Sacrament! It is the other Sacrament.

I Cor 11:26 "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you PROCLAIM the Lord’s death until he comes."

Scripture clearly states it is in the Lord's Supper, we testify publicly to our faith. The NT doesn't speak of baptism in this way. No where does baptism equate to a public testimony of ones faith. No where.

The reason why a believers public proclamation is in the Lord's Supper and not in baptism is simple. In partaking of the Holy Communion a believer is active, and in baptism the believer is passive. No Christian baptizes himself. Never.

Receiving the Lord’s Supper is the most public act of worship we do on Sunday. We are active in receiving the Lord’s supper as Jesus says, “Take eat” and “Drink.” And yet we are passive in the its blessings.

In baptism, we are passive. We never baptize ourselves. Someone else baptizes us. Even the blessing we get in baptism are passively given to us…Romans 6 says we are united with Christ death burial and resurrection. We don’t unite ourselves to his event, God does. We are passive. God is active.

And yet even those that baptize us are passive because ministers are seen as instruments who act in the place and at the command of Christ when they administer the baptism.

However, a baptism itself (the application of water, with accompanying words) is a statement by God (through the church) to and about the person being baptized, not a statement by that person.


Oh yes it is. Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation but it is necessary for salvation.

Baptism is necessary to salvation because the Word of God requires it. For whatever Jesus has instituted and commanded it is to be done. God binds all Christians to be baptized, therefore baptism IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.

Having said that, Baptism is not absolutely necessary for salvation because the way God instituted it. Certain persons by definition are excluded from being baptized. The unborn. If were baptism were absolutely necessary for salvation, all unborn who die before birth would be excluded from salvation.

The necessity of baptism is not absolute but ordinary. The ordinary way the Christian life is lived is by being baptized. All Christians are baptized with no exceptions. This is the normal pattern. Baptism is not optional for the believer, and there is no such thing in the NT as an unbaptized believer.

True faith always results in baptism.

However, outright rejection of baptism in tantamount to rejection of God himself, thus no true faith can really be present. Outright rejection of Christ’s command is willful rejection of the Holy Spirit, since baptism promises the Holy Spirit as a gift. It is rebellion against God and his Word. This is rank unbelief.

We should always publicly teach that Baptism is necessary for salvation except in cases where Baptism is impossible to be administered.

The Christian should NEVER think that Baptism is not necessary for Christian life as the gift of the Holy Spirit is contained within.


Again, the Greek word "symbol" is not found in the NT. Where do you get this stuff from?

There are several words we use that are not specifically written in His Word (ie trinity) .... but taking His Word as a whole we are able to
determine the meaning of it's teachings.

They Holy Spirt has always worked in the hearts of mankind.

The Holy Spirit reveals God's truth, and God's truth renews our conscience.

We are/were created with a conscience (by God) .... to know right from wrong. Did Adam & Eve get baptized and receive the Holy Spirit? No .... they had direct conversation with the Lord Himself .... (ie eat of it and you shall surely die). After the fall the face to face with God was no longer possible because no one can see God (face to face) and live. Also the tree of life was removed because it was what provided them everlasting life. If not removed it would have perpetuated sin for eternity. When it was removed man became mortal beings .... subject to death.

After the fall of Adam and Eve .... God appeared in several forms .... but never as Himself .... until Jesus.

The face to face with God did happen again .... one of the reasons that Jesus needed to be born as a human and yet be fully God was to enable Him to once again engage with mankind face to face ... was able to because He was human as well as God at the same time. He was "veiled in human form".

Jesus was truly human and baptized and yes the Holy Spirit descended on Him because of that. He was also truly God. When Jesus was baptized the Holy Spirit descended on Him showing Himself to be the true son of God (Messiah) along with the voice of God confirming such as well ....
ie this is my son in whom I am well pleased.

Exodus 33:20
20 But He added, “You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.”

Since the fall the Lord has been working through the Holy Spirt within mankind .... not through baptism. It is the Holy Spirit that brings us to repentance ..... and repentance is turning away from sin ... and sin is transgressing the law of God .... and the law of God is the reflection of who God is ... has been written on the heart/mind since Adam and Eve (all are created in His image) and still is to this day and going forward until Jesus returns.

So the Lord said, “My Spirit won’t remain with human beings forever, because they’re truly mortal. Their lifespan will be 120 years.” (Genesis 6:3)

We receive power and gifts from the Holy Spirt .... but one can also refuse that power and/gifts and that's called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ... continued rejection of God's spirit working within a person. It is the Holy Spirit that brings once to repentance ... without repentance there is no forgiveness and only God knows if one has truly repented.

Point being ..... the Holy Spirit has always been working in the hearts/mind of mankind since the fall of mankind and will continue to do so until Jesus returns but the Holy Spirits work is not by force ... one can choose to ignore the Holy Spirits convictions and sometimes we do ...... at some point in time (and only God knows) He will indeed stop working in the hearts and minds of people through the Holy Spirit ... there is a time when their heart/mind becomes totally hardened and only God knows and decides when He will remove His Spirit totally.

We are extremely grateful that the Lord is LONG suffering in that regard.

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Romans 2:4 - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

God provides everything for us ..... He is looking for those who are willing to listen to Him and walk in His ways .... and He also helps us to do that as well .... even though He knows we will fail here and there He is willing to keep helping us over and over. We are constantly being sanctified through the work of the Holy Spirit throughout our entire earthly life.

Water baptism is our outward testimony of what has happened inside of us. It is indeed an important and most solemn event ... but is not a requirement for salvation.

There will no doubt be many in heaven who were not water baptized.

We are accepted in the beloved (Jesus) ... not through water baptism.

Ephesians 1:6 AMPC​

[So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Jesus).

This is one of my most cherished promises from the Word of God.

Philippians 1:6
New Living Translation
And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns.

AMEN!!!!!! Thank you Jesus!

Regarding the water baptism of infants, nope not required .... babies have no idea about repentance .... nor do they have any knowledge of sin (transgression of the law) so they get a pass until they experience and comprehend same and only the Lord knows when that is.

I stand in total awe how the Lord works in His created beings .... there is only one verse that accurately describes God and that is ...

1 John 4:16
God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them.

Can a person be saved without repentance? No

Can a person be saved if they commit blasphemy? No

Can a person be water baptized and then later decide to walk away from God? Yes
.... many have and do.

If one is water baptized and continues sinning .... will they be saved? No because continuous sinning is considered blasphemy.

Therefore water baptism can not be a requirement for salvation.

The once saved .... always saved theology is bogus teaching. Water baptism begin required is bogus teaching.

Saying the Holy Spirt only works in the hearts/minds of people that are water baptized is bogus teaching.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Water baptism is our outward testimony of what has happened inside of us. It is indeed an important and most solemn event ... but is not a requirement for salvation.

Are you saying baptism is OPTIONAL for a Christian?

 

[Markie Boy]

Totally agree with the above. I was at a church where the pastor made it clear you don't need to be baptized to be saved. I think it's possible, like the thief on the cross. But it should be an extreme, uncommon exception - not a teaching we hear on Sunday.

But it seems modern evangelicalism does sometimes seem to suggest it's optional.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I think it's possible, like the thief on the cross. But it should be an extreme, uncommon exception - not a teaching we hear on Sunday.

Agreed. Actually is it far more worse than an extreme exception. The baptism of the thief is an IMPOSSIBILITY. When was Christian baptism instituted? After the resurrection but before Jesus' accession per Matthew 28:18f. The first Christian baptisms were performed on the Day of Pentecost, some 53 days after the thief was executed. Christian baptism starting point is the day of Pentecost and not before.