A Thought on Geothermal Energy

HARK! · Oct 23, 2022

What would inhibit a process of drilling down to a depth capable of changing large amounts of water to steam?

Cool water, accelerated by gravity, could drive impellers to produce electricity all the way down; and steam could drive impellers to produce electricity on the way back up. Once on the surface, the steam could be condensed in a radiator, and recirculated in a closed system.

Surely I couldn't be the first person who thought of this very simple process.

So what is the hold up?

Nithavela · Oct 23, 2022

HARK! said:
What would inhibit a process of drilling down to a depth capable of changing large amounts of water to steam?

Cool water, accelerated by gravity, could drive impellers to produce electricity all the way down; and steam could drive impellers to produce electricity on the way back up. Once on the surface, the steam could be condensed in a radiator, and recirculated in a closed system.

Surely I couldn't be the first person who thought of this very simple process.

So what is the hold up?

Not sure what you mean with "what's the holdup", this kind of technology has been used since the beginning of the 20th century.

Astrid · Oct 23, 2022

Nithavela said:
Not sure what you mean with "what's the holdup", this kind of technology has been used since the beginning of the 20th century.

I kinda think it was about why it's so rare.

Tuur · Oct 23, 2022

HARK! said:
What would inhibit a process of drilling down to a depth capable of changing large amounts of water to steam?

Cool water, accelerated by gravity, could drive impellers to produce electricity all the way down; and steam could drive impellers to produce electricity on the way back up. Once on the surface, the steam could be condensed in a radiator, and recirculated in a closed system.

Surely I couldn't be the first person who thought of this very simple process.

So what is the hold up?

I'm a fan of the idea of geothermal energy. In some places, it would seem to be an ideal solution, and there are geothermal generating stations. But I've been told there's a problem with corrosion. Don't know if that's true or not.

dqhall · Oct 23, 2022

HARK! said:
What would inhibit a process of drilling down to a depth capable of changing large amounts of water to steam?

California gets over 5% of its electricity from geothermal steam generation. They have areas where the magma is closer to the surface. Places with geyser and fumarole activity are better for geothermal power plants.
One benefit of California’s volcanoes? Geothermal energy | U.S. Geological Survey

Nithavela · Oct 23, 2022

Estrid said:
I kinda think it was about why it's so rare.

Maybe, but I'd prefer to hear it from OP himself.

No sense in replying to a question that wasn't asked.

chilehed · Oct 23, 2022

HARK! said:
What would inhibit a process of drilling down to a depth capable of changing large amounts of water to steam?

Cool water, accelerated by gravity, could drive impellers to produce electricity all the way down...

The energy extraction from that would be incredibly low, you'd never get enough to be useful and certainly not enough to pay for the installation, you'd have a hard time even spinning the impellers. That's why the inlet side to the turbines is always in the hottest part of the fluid path, not on the cold water return. The bedrock temperatures required to turn water into steam are very high, which causes issues with material selection. Typically the steam you get has a fair amount of liquid in it, so you need to separate the fractions and then you have to deal with the toxic compounds that can dissolve into the water from the ground (hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, mercury, arsenic, etc.).

There are binary systems that transfer heat to a second fluid that boils at a lower temperature than water, but those fluids have their own issues with toxicity and flammability.

Geothermal is cool, but the engineering hurdles are significant (there are many more than I mentioned), the setup expense is very high and there's a risk of causing problems with the stability of the land in the region. For example, a project in Switzerland was suspended because it was causing earthquakes. And once you find out that that's gonna happen, you've already sunk huge costs that are unrecoverable.

Paulos23 · Oct 23, 2022

HARK! said:
What would inhibit a process of drilling down to a depth capable of changing large amounts of water to steam?

Cool water, accelerated by gravity, could drive impellers to produce electricity all the way down; and steam could drive impellers to produce electricity on the way back up. Once on the surface, the steam could be condensed in a radiator, and recirculated in a closed system.

Surely I couldn't be the first person who thought of this very simple process.

So what is the hold up?

Iceland has the technoligy, but it is a state secret.

But to be serious, it already exists for houses.
Geothermal Heat Pump Services Heat Pump Repairs Estacada

chilehed · Oct 23, 2022

Paulos23 said:
But to be serious, it already exists for houses.
Geothermal Heat Pump Services Heat Pump Repairs Estacada

The question wasn't about heat pumps, it was about electricity generation. Very different thing.

ruthiesea · Oct 23, 2022

In the US 3,676 MW is being generated by geothermal power plants as of 2019.

HARK! · Oct 23, 2022

chilehed said:
The question wasn't about heat pumps, it was about electricity generation. Very different thing.

Your response in post #7, specifically answered my question regarding electricity generation through deep well geothermal energy. Thank you for your reply. Mission accomplished. I'll now open up this thread to conversation about geothermal energy in general.

Tuur · Oct 23, 2022

chilehed said:
The energy extraction from that would be incredibly low, you'd never get enough to be useful and certainly not enough to pay for the installation, you'd have a hard time even spinning the impellers. That's why the inlet side to the turbines is always in the hottest part of the fluid path, not on the cold water return. The bedrock temperatures required to turn water into steam are very high, which causes issues with material selection. Typically the steam you get has a fair amount of liquid in it, so you need to separate the fractions and then you have to deal with the toxic compounds that can dissolve into the water from the ground (hydrogen sulfide, ammonia, mercury, arsenic, etc.).

There are binary systems that transfer heat to a second fluid that boils at a lower temperature than water, but those fluids have their own issues with toxicity and flammability.

Geothermal is cool, but the engineering hurdles are significant (there are many more than I mentioned), the setup expense is very high and there's a risk of causing problems with the stability of the land in the region. For example, a project in Switzerland was suspended because it was causing earthquakes. And once you find out that that's gonna happen, you've already sunk huge costs that are unrecoverable.

Like the realter supposedly said, "Location, location, location." Not everywhere is suitable for geothermal, just as not everywhere is suitable for wind or hydroelectric. The US DOE has energy potential maps that show the renewable potentials of different locations.

The Swiss example is something I'd forgotten. It sounds similar to what's happened with fracking.

chilehed · Oct 23, 2022

Tuur said:
Like the realter supposedly said, "Location, location, location."

Yep, most places aren't blessed with the geothermal potential of Iceland, and many that are, are fairly isolated. I'm sure that it'd be an uphill fight to get public support for a few large facilites in and around Yellowstone.

Geothermal heat pumps are great, but again the installation costs are a lot higher than the more common systems so housing developers are reluctant to use them - it'd either cut into their profit margin or force them to raise the selling price. But if I was spec'ing my own house and planned to live there for longer than the 5-10 year fiscal break even point, I'd absolutely spec a geothermal heating/cooling system. My dream house would also have one of those passive systems that collect solar heat in a glass arboretum on the south side and convect air through a gravel mass. I'd fill it with tropical plants and stuff, have a jungle in the house, and do it all in a Frank Lloyd Wright inspired style.

C'mon, Powerball!!

Valletta · Oct 23, 2022

chilehed said:
Yep, most places aren't blessed with the geothermal potential of Iceland, and many that are, are fairly isolated. I'm sure that it'd be an uphill fight to get public support for a few large facilites in and around Yellowstone.

Geothermal heat pumps are great, but again the installation costs are a lot higher than the more common systems so housing developers are reluctant to use them - it'd either cut into their profit margin or force them to raise the selling price. But if I was spec'ing my own house and planned to live there for longer than the 5-10 year fiscal break even point, I'd absolutely spec a geothermal heating/cooling system. My dream house would also have one of those passive systems that collect solar heat in a glass arboretum on the south side and convect air through a gravel mass. I'd fill it with tropical plants and stuff, have a jungle in the house, and do it all in a Frank Lloyd Wright inspired style.

C'mon, Powerball!!

Most of the ideal areas are on plate boundaries, like Iceland. Hawaii is a hot spot that is not on a plate boundary. Drilling typically gets more expensive the deeper you go, and it depends what you drill through.

chilehed · Oct 23, 2022

Valletta said:
Most of the ideal areas are on plate boundaries, like Iceland. Hawaii is a hot spot that is not on a plate boundary. Drilling typically gets more expensive the deeper you go, and it depends what you drill through.

Indeed, many of the best places require drilling through particularly hard material and the bore holes are much, much larger than those used in, for example, oil wells, both of which make drilling a lot more expensive. The earth at plate boundaries and volcano zones isn't noted for being particularly stable. Pick your poison: hot earth close to the surface where you're more likely to get earthquakes or surface magma flows, or stable areas with no volcanos but you have to dig ten times deeper to get to temperatures that aren't nearly as high. Either way, it ain't cheap.

durangodawood · Oct 24, 2022

HARK! said:
....Surely I couldn't be the first person who thought of this very simple process.

So what is the hold up?

Technically simple ideas that arent being used are probably politically or economically complex.

(Or the process is more technically complex that you assert.)

durangodawood · Oct 24, 2022

Obviously pumping cold water to the fiery depths would cool the earths core and ruin the magnetic field we rely on to protect our atmosphere from the solar wind.

But who cares. End times are almost here. Party on, people!

Valletta · Oct 24, 2022

durangodawood said:
Obviously pumping cold water to the fiery depths would cool the earths core and ruin the magnetic field we rely on to protect our atmosphere from the solar wind.

But who cares. End times are almost here. Party on, people!

You don't have dig so deep.

durangodawood · Oct 24, 2022

Valletta said:
You don't have dig so deep.

I was joking about the first part.
And being sarcastic in a serious way about the second.

HARK! · Oct 24, 2022

durangodawood said:
Technically simple ideas that arent being used are probably politically or economically complex.

(Or the process is more technically complex that you assert.)

See post #7. It was very informative.

A Thought on Geothermal Energy

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