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A third time?

WarriorAngel

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If Obama had to write the Declaration of Independence, we know he would omit Creator.. and he says he is in fact Christian.

Whereas these men - whom are claimed to have no faith - did in fact put Creator in the DoI.

Reminds me of Jesus saying - who is better the one who says no, but does it, or the one who says yes but does not do it.

You know the scriptures... and its not verbatim, but you see where i am going.

Obviously they put themselves last for the sake of a Christian nation.
If they held themselves to their own beliefs, as some suggest they were not Christian, they would not have believed in a Creator - and would not have added we obtained rights from Him.
 
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WarriorAngel

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And I fail to see how the Catholics here (and anywhere) cannot but feel a sense of pride that a fellow Catholic, Daniel Carroll was a signer of the Declaration of Independence and yet another fellow Catholic, Charles Carroll was a signer of the Constitution and they both helped draft the Bill of Rights--all foundational documents of the United States without which there would be no United States! (Oh John Carroll--elder brother of Charles was the first Catholic Bishop in the United States! Some feat since another of the posters here mentioned that Catholics only made up 1% of the population back then. Then there's the fact that most of the 52 signers of the Constitution were in some way related to religion just by the fact that the Universities back then were established to turn out ministers! Then there's the original sources that show that these Founders were Christian and often studied Scripture. So much for the charge of deism and the United States not being founded on Christian principles! Hmmm--maybe that's why today they aren't mentioned--those that want to take Christianity out of the U.S. documents can't afford to have any knowledge of Christians having anything to do with the founding documents.)

I also fail to see why original sources (that show the obvious Christian bent of the Founders) aren't used. And I fail to see why others don't view Obama's purposeful misquoting of the Declaration to exclude the fact that the Creator gives us rights as one big warning sign. (Doesn't the Declaration also say that it's the government's duty to protect those rights that have been given to us by our Creator? Well, if we don't know that we are given those rights by our Creator, isn't it easier for those rights to be taken away?
Legend has it, and i do not know for certain, that George Washington converted to Catholic on his death bed.
 
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WarriorAngel

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worth pointing out that "the creator" in the declaration is NOT the Christian God?

There is but One God.
The forefathers didnt know Who He was maybe, but they knew Someone created us with inalienable rights.

We may know Who He is - but we also know the Creator doesn't divide Himself or deny Himself - and that other gods do not exist.

Rather than omit a Creator - they added Him - Whomsoever He may be.
 
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TheUnwanted

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There is but One God.
The forefathers didnt know Who He was maybe, but they knew Someone created us with inalienable rights.

We may know Who He is - but we also know the Creator doesn't divide Himself or deny Himself - and that other gods do not exist.

Rather than omit a Creator - they added Him - Whomsoever He may be.
Thats beautiful and all... however not everyone in the US is a Catholic, and the declaration speaks for ALL Americans. Even the ones who aren't Catholic. Heck, even the ones who don't believe in ANY sort of Creator.
 
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AMDG

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however not everyone in the US is a Catholic, and the declaration speaks for ALL Americans. Even the ones who aren't Catholic.

But the fact remains that the Founders insisted on the accuracy that we are endowed by our Creator of unalienable rights. And the fact remains that one Catholic (not deist, not Puritan, and certainly not Freemason) signed the Declaration of Independence and another Catholic (not deist, not Puritan, and certainly not Freemason) was one of the 52 signers of the Constitution, and both helped to give us our all important Bill of Rights. And there's also the question: "Why do we want to forget that?" Our documents guarantee freedom of religion--not freedom from religion. ;)
 
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WarriorAngel

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Thats beautiful and all... however not everyone in the US is a Catholic, and the declaration speaks for ALL Americans. Even the ones who aren't Catholic. Heck, even the ones who don't believe in ANY sort of Creator.

So dont you see the magnificence in adding 'the Creator'.. they may have not personally believed - or even understood atheism existed, but they [the two or three] allowed this to be truth for the entire nation in regards to the 52-53 who most were Christian.

Not only that - they didnt feel the need to coddle the unbelievers and deny Him to the world.

It's not just beautiful, it's the basis of our rights....they said they were given rights - inalienable - because we are endowed with them by the Creator.

We really can't dispute that - even if ppl do not believe, as some didn't or werent sure, they didnt make demands that it not be added, they did not omit it because of personal beliefs...

It is what it is...we have rights from a Creator which is the basis behind the rights we have.

When a politician omits this - they neither want to show they believe in this Creator - nor do they believe our rights come from the Creator... but by the government.
Obama himself said we cannot legislate by the Bible.. even though his predecessors successfully legislated by the Creator - and used the Ten Commandments in the court houses.

We are pressed to suggest Christianity was not what the forefathers based the rights of the citizens on.

Besides the Puritans, Quakers, Catholics, Calvinists et al - and some agnostics - who else was present practicing a different religion?

All these Christians sects were still Christian.
 
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TheUnwanted

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But the fact remains that the Founders insisted on the accuracy that we are endowed by our Creator of unalienable rights. And the fact remains that one Catholic (not deist, not Puritan, and certainly not Freemason) signed the Declaration of Independence and another Catholic (not deist, not Puritan, and certainly not Freemason) was one of the 52 signers of the Constitution, and both helped to give us our all important Bill of Rights. And there's also the question: "Why do we want to forget that?" Our documents guarantee freedom of religion--not freedom from religion. ;)
Given that anti-Catholic sentiment was one of the popular motives behind the revolution, I'm not sure how hard you want to push THAT barrow.

One out of 52 signers is hardly enough to suggest that the "Creator" mentioned is the God Catholics believe in.

This is yet more anti Obama storm in teacupping. At the very most, his omission shows he doesn't believe that the US has an official stance towards a creator to believe in. It does not suggest that he personally doesn't believe in one.
 
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2WhomShallWeGo

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Thats beautiful and all... however not everyone in the US is a Catholic, and the declaration speaks for ALL Americans. Even the ones who aren't Catholic. Heck, even the ones who don't believe in ANY sort of Creator.
The declaration was a declaration made by those at the time it should remain unchanged as representing the intent of the men who wrote anything else is just PC garbozh.
 
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TheUnwanted

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So dont you see the magnificence in adding 'the Creator'.. they may have not personally believed - or even understood atheism existed, but they [the two or three] allowed this to be truth for the entire nation in regards to the 52-53 who most were Christian.

Not only that - they didnt feel the need to coddle the unbelievers and deny Him to the world.

It's not just beautiful, it's the basis of our rights....they said they were given rights - inalienable - because we are endowed with them by the Creator.

We really can't dispute that - even if ppl do not believe, as some didn't or werent sure, they didnt make demands that it not be added, they did not omit it because of personal beliefs...

It is what it is...we have rights from a Creator which is the basis behind the rights we have.

When a politician omits this - they neither want to show they believe in this Creator - nor do they believe our rights come from the Creator... but by the government.
Obama himself said we cannot legislate by the Bible.. even though his predecessors successfully legislated by the Creator - and used the Ten Commandments in the court houses.

We are pressed to suggest Christianity was not what the forefathers based the rights of the citizens on.

Besides the Puritans, Quakers, Catholics, Calvinists et al - and some agnostics - who else was present practicing a different religion?

All these Christians sects were still Christian.
They also displayed Hamurabi's Code in courthouses. Funny how that so rarely gets mentioned alongside the 10 commandments being there.

Seems you are awfully keen to shoehorn the "creator" mentioned into being the Christians God. Seems pretty simple to me... if the founding fathers hand intended the D of I to reference God, they would have said "God". The fact they deliberately chose to use the far more nebulous term "creator" speaks volumes. I.e. that each individual is free to believe in whatever creator heso wishes, and that the state has no place in telling you who the creator is.

Again, Obama's ommission does not for a moment suggest to me he doesn't believe in a deity, merely that he doesn't believe that deity is identified specifically by the government.
 
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TheUnwanted

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The declaration was a declaration made by those at the time it should remain unchanged as representing the intent of the men who wrote anything else is just PC garbozh.
No one is changing the Declaration. Obama was referencing what's in it, not quoting it verbatim.
 
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2WhomShallWeGo

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No one is changing the Declaration. Obama was referencing what's in it, not quoting it verbatim.
Sure he was referencing it and I think what people are argueing is that he was c hanging it in the process or perhaps more accurately changing the meaning by needlessly omitting a key portion that significantly adds to the understanding of the text.

As most Americans don't like it when people put words in the founders mouths they are hardly going to take kindly to having the founders words changed or distorted.
 
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TheUnwanted

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Sure he was referencing it and I think what people are argueing is that he was c hanging it in the process or perhaps more accurately changing the meaning by needlessly omitting a key portion that significantly adds to the understanding of the text.

As most Americans don't like it when people put words in the founders mouths they are hardly going to take kindly to having the founders words changed or distorted.
Well he certainly can't be accused of putting words into the founders mouths, can he?

As to whether or not he changed or distorted what they actually did say, I don't think he did.

Me personally, I'm a stickler for historical accuracy. I'd probably have quated the thing exactly. However, I can see a case for saying what he said, without everyone latching onto it for yet another round of the never tedious "ZOMG! Obama is a secret Muslim who hates America!" game.
 
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2WhomShallWeGo

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Well he certainly can't be accused of putting words into the founders mouths, can he?

As to whether or not he changed or distorted what they actually did say, I don't think he did.

Me personally, I'm a stickler for historical accuracy. I'd probably have quated the thing exactly. However, I can see a case for saying what he said, without everyone latching onto it for yet another round of the never tedious "ZOMG! Obama is a secret Muslim who hates America!" game.

HE omitted the same key word on three separate occasions if the OP is to be believed. I personally only researched watched the first time. I can see no good reasons for doing it three times in a row. As far as the muslim thing I'm more concerned by his "christianity". or What ever you call the church he went to. The things we can verify about Obama and the thing on film are far more scary than the conjectures if you ask me.

Fortunately I believe there is an excellent chance that he won't be able to do a whole lot of damage from now on.
 
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TheUnwanted

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HE omitted the same key word on three separate occasions if the OP is to be believed. I personally only researched watched the first time. I can see no good reasons for doing it three times in a row. As far as the muslim thing I'm more concerned by his "christianity". or What ever you call the church he went to. The things we can verify about Obama and the thing on film are far more scary than the conjectures if you ask me.

Fortunately I believe there is an excellent chance that he won't be able to do a whole lot of damage from now on.
I don't believe he has done much of anything, damage or otherwise, and I doubt very much he will change significantly in the future.

All of that is irrelevent to the point at hand. Whether Obama is Christian, Muslim or Zoroastrian has absolutely no bearing on his office, or America having an official religion. Indeed, it may well be to avpoid speculation about endorsement of any official religion that he omitted the word in question.

Can you imagine, had he used the full phrase, including "Creator", the people crawling from the woodwork condemning him as a secret Muslim for saying "Creator" when he could have said "God"? Alternatively, people citing his use of the full phrase as further evidence tht American governments do recognise the christian religion as being the one valid one? There'd be wingnuts from all sides trying to shoehorn the phrase to fit their agendas, never doubt that.

I never would have voted for the guy, not in a pink fit, and I certainly on't think he's done much since being elected, however I am finding myself feelinga little sorry for him, since it seems he can't breath without someone accusing him of diminishing air quality.

Short version... unless he was specifically discussing religion, I do wish people would stop trying to project secret deeper meanings onto every utterence the guy makes.
 
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AMDG

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I am finding myself feelinga little sorry for him, since it seems he can't breath without someone accusing him of diminishing air quality.

Well, if Hillary Clinton can be believed, she called it on Obama being inexperienced, so I guess that's part of the "can't breath without..." It's that he's in way over his head.

But this thread is about the fact that he changed the Declaration three separate times and that IMO speaks to Michie's Catholic online article of the possible reason for him doing so.
 
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WarriorAngel

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They also displayed Hamurabi's Code in courthouses. Funny how that so rarely gets mentioned alongside the 10 commandments being there.

Seems you are awfully keen to shoehorn the "creator" mentioned into being the Christians God. Seems pretty simple to me... if the founding fathers hand intended the D of I to reference God, they would have said "God". The fact they deliberately chose to use the far more nebulous term "creator" speaks volumes. I.e. that each individual is free to believe in whatever creator heso wishes, and that the state has no place in telling you who the creator is.

Again, Obama's ommission does not for a moment suggest to me he doesn't believe in a deity, merely that he doesn't believe that deity is identified specifically by the government.

Considering from what i was reading that after the war - 1775 - 1783, the court houses were built around the late 1780's the Ten Commandments were erected.

BUT - still - there is one GOD - one Creator - it is impossible to suggest that this is a relative statement. EVEN if others in the greatest of minority sects came [which they didn't] - they were not the majority - for that is why the Creator was added....for the people.
~~~~~~~~~

What are those laws exactly and how do they fit into the Constitution Rights?

The Code of Laws
1. If any one ensnare another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.
2. If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.
3. If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death.
4. If he satisfy the elders to impose a fine of grain or money, he shall receive the fine that the action produces.
5. If a judge try a case, reach a decision, and present his judgment in writing; if later error shall appear in his decision, and it be through his own fault, then he shall pay twelve times the fine set by him in the case, and he shall be publicly removed from the judge's bench, and never again shall he sit there to render judgement.
6. If any one steal the property of a temple or of the court, he shall be put to death, and also the one who receives the stolen thing from him shall be put to death.
7. If any one buy from the son or the slave of another man, without witnesses or a contract, silver or gold, a male or female slave, an ox or a sheep, an ass or anything, or if he take it in charge, he is considered a thief and shall be put to death.
8. If any one steal cattle or sheep, or an ass, or a pig or a goat, if it belong to a god or to the court, the thief shall pay thirtyfold therefor; if they belonged to a freed man of the king he shall pay tenfold; if the thief has nothing with which to pay he shall be put to death.

EAWC Anthology: Hammurabi's Code of Laws

I mean seriously, the rights in the Constitution do not even begin to imitate this stuff.
Because Hammurabi's Code does not endow inalienable rights.

Seems like a new history evolving....gods and kings? And the Constitution was built up against these things...see where i am with this?

The Creator [capitalized for the Christian God] ...does not say gods or creators.

WHERE these laws do exist in courthouses - from reviewing their history - is in Iraq, not America.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Legend has it, and i do not know for certain, that George Washington converted to Catholic on his death bed.

Not sure how accurate this is...


George Washington's Conversion to Catholicism


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]About four hours before Washington’s death, Father Leonard Neale, a Jesuit priest was called to Mount Vernon from St. Mary’s Mission across the Piscataway River. Washington had been an Episcopalian, but was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church that night. After Washington’s death, a picture of the Blessed Virgin Mary and one of St. John were found among the effects on an inventory of articles at his home [/FONT]
 
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WarriorAngel

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I don't believe he has done much of anything, damage or otherwise, and I doubt very much he will change significantly in the future.

All of that is irrelevent to the point at hand. Whether Obama is Christian, Muslim or Zoroastrian has absolutely no bearing on his office, or America having an official religion. Indeed, it may well be to avpoid speculation about endorsement of any official religion that he omitted the word in question.
As i said if he denies God before man...

Anyway - his reasons are insidious, if that would be his reasoning.
As we discussed previously, even if the 2-3 members of the signers of the D o I weren't Christian but signed this - why should a president deny it?


Can you imagine, had he used the full phrase, including "Creator", the people crawling from the woodwork condemning him as a secret Muslim for saying "Creator" when he could have said "God"? Alternatively, people citing his use of the full phrase as further evidence tht American governments do recognise the christian religion as being the one valid one? There'd be wingnuts from all sides trying to shoehorn the phrase to fit their agendas, never doubt that.
NO other president had that problem.
I never would have voted for the guy, not in a pink fit, and I certainly on't think he's done much since being elected, however I am finding myself feelinga little sorry for him, since it seems he can't breath without someone accusing him of diminishing air quality.

Short version... unless he was specifically discussing religion, I do wish people would stop trying to project secret deeper meanings onto every utterence the guy makes.

He is going off the path of the office of presidency by choice in not only this, but so many other ways.
He makes either very calculated judgments or he is really obtuse.

I read the Consitution again the other day - czars are unconstitutional, but he doesnt care.
The worst part - as a professor who taught Constitutional law - he cannot possibly be erring by ignorance.
 
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