A Third Temple In Jerusalem, Breaking News?

BABerean2 · Jun 9, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
There is one thing I think you should consider: If the Temple Mount was really a Roman fort, why did archaeologists find a stone from the place where the priests blew the trumpets at the base of the southwest corner of the Temple Mount retaining wall?

The source said..." It is thought to have fallen from the southwest corner of the Temple Mount to the street below prior to its discovery."

Based on the statement above, nobody knows exactly where the stone came from.

You are correct about Fort Antonia being north of the actual temple site.

Recent underground excavations near Gihon Spring, by Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron, have revealed what may be the basement of Solomon's temple.
Gihon Spring is south of the area known as "the Temple Mount".

Modern Orthodox Jews use the Babylonian Talmud as their source of truth.
It claims Christ is the illegitimate child of Mary and a Roman soldier named Pantera.
It is based on the writings of the rabbis after 70 AD.

Do you think Fort Antonia is a myth?

Was Josephus confused in his description of the location of a Roman fort attached to the Jewish temple by a bridge?

When the Jewish leader at Masada said during 73 AD that the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans, what was he talking about?

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Steve Petersen · Jun 9, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The source said..." It is thought to have fallen from the southwest corner of the Temple Mount to the street below prior to its discovery."

Based on the statement above, nobody knows exactly where the stone came from.

Do you imagine that the Romans dragged it there and left it?

Recent underground excavations near Gihon Spring, by Israeli archeologist Eli Shukron, have revealed what may be the basement of Solomon's temple.

Click to expand...

I can find no source in which Shurkon makes this claim. There is this though: he is part of a team that has found a fortress over the Gihon from the Canaanite era.

Canaanite Fortress Discovered in the City of David - Biblical Archaeology Society

Modern Orthodox Jews use the Babylonian Talmud as their source of truth.

Click to expand...

It claims Christ is the illegitimate child of Mary and a Roman soldier named Pantera.
It is based on the writings of the rabbis after 70 AD.

The passage in the Talmud is not referring to Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was a common name, as was Mary. The details of the passage do not fit the time frame of Jesus.

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud

Do you think Fort Antonia is a myth?

Click to expand...

No, it existed but was not a legionary fortress, but a smaller fort on the north side of the Temple Mount, overlooking it.

The Antonia Fortress in Jerusalem

Was Josephus confused in his description of the location of a Roman fort attached to the Jewish temple by a bridge?

Click to expand...

Most translations of Josephus use the word colonnade rather than bridge. As to the bridge's length, the topography north of the Temple Mount doesn't leave room for a 600 foot bridge.

When the Jewish leader at Masada said during 73 AD that the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans, what was he talking about?

Click to expand...

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The retaining walls for the Temple Mount platform, the aqueducts bringing water into the city (Pilate was actually the one who had that built) and probably some other things as well.

Herodian architecture - Wikipedia

BABerean2 · Jun 9, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
The passage in the Talmud is not referring to Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus was a common name, as was Mary. The details of the passage do not fit the time frame of Jesus.

In the book "Jesus in the Talmud" by Dr. Peter Schafer (who is a Jewish scholar), Dr. Schafer says otherwise.

Jesus in the Talmud

At one point you claimed that the "Temple Mount" area was not large enough to house the Roman soldiers, and now you claim an even smaller structure did house them.

Eli Shukron's work can be found in the book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke.

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Steve Petersen · Jun 9, 2018

BABerean2 said:
In the book "Jesus in the Talmud" by Dr. Peter Schafer (who is a Jewish scholar), Dr. Schafer says otherwise.

Jesus in the Talmud

At one point you claimed that the "Temple Mount" area was not large enough to house the Roman soldiers, and now you claim an even smaller structure did house them.

Eli Shukron's work can be found in the book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke.

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I said it was not large enough to house a LEGION. The Antonia Fortress north of the Temple Mount is not large enough for s legion either. But only a detachment from a legion.

It seems that you are still conflating the Temple Mount with the Antonia Fortress. They are different structures.

BABerean2 · Jun 9, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
It seems that you are still conflating the Temple Mount with the Antonia Fortress. They are different structures.

Then what was the Jewish leader at Masada speaking of when during 73 AD he said the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans?

Why does the Bible talk about a spring of water being in the Jewish temple?

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Steve Petersen · Jun 9, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Then what was the Jewish leader at Masada speaking of when during 73 AD he said the only thing left in Jerusalem was that built by the Romans?

You must have missed this link when I answered this question earlier:

Herodian architecture - Wikipedia

Why does the Bible talk about a spring of water being in the Jewish temple?

Click to expand...

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What verses are you referring to?

BABerean2 · Jun 9, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
You must have missed this link when I answered this question earlier:

Herodian architecture - Wikipedia

No. You did not answer the question.
You provided a link to an article from Wikipedia.
Almost anyone can add to an article found in Wikipedia. I have done it myself.

Where was Solomon anointed King, and why was he taken to that spot to be anointed by Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet?

1Ki 1:38 So Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites went down and had Solomon ride on King David's mule, and took him to Gihon.
1Ki 1:39 Then Zadok the priest took a horn of oil from the tabernacle and anointed Solomon. And they blew the horn, and all the people said, "Long live King Solomon!"
1Ki 1:40 And all the people went up after him; and the people played the flutes and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth seemed to split with their sound.
1Ki 1:41 Now Adonijah and all the guests who were with him heard it as they finished eating. And when Joab heard the sound of the horn, he said, "Why is the city in such a noisy uproar?"
1Ki 1:42 While he was still speaking, there came Jonathan, the son of Abiathar the priest. And Adonijah said to him, "Come in, for you are a prominent man, and bring good news."
1Ki 1:43 Then Jonathan answered and said to Adonijah, "No! Our lord King David has made Solomon king.
1Ki 1:44 The king has sent with him Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites; and they have made him ride on the king's mule.
1Ki 1:45 So Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet have anointed him king at Gihon; and they have gone up from there rejoicing, so that the city is in an uproar. This is the noise that you have heard.

There are also verses about water being present in the temple, after it was completed.
It will take me a little time to find them.

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Steve Petersen · Jun 9, 2018

BABerean2 said:
No. You did not answer the question.
You provided a link to an article from Wikipedia.
Almost anyone can add to an article found in Wikipedia. I have done it myself.

Where was Solomon anointed King, and why was he taken to that spot to be anointed by Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet?

1Ki 1:38 So Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites went down and had Solomon ride on King David's mule, and took him to Gihon.
1Ki 1:39 Then Zadok the priest took a horn of oil from the tabernacle and anointed Solomon. And they blew the horn, and all the people said, "Long live King Solomon!"
1Ki 1:40 And all the people went up after him; and the people played the flutes and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth seemed to split with their sound.
1Ki 1:41 Now Adonijah and all the guests who were with him heard it as they finished eating. And when Joab heard the sound of the horn, he said, "Why is the city in such a noisy uproar?"
1Ki 1:42 While he was still speaking, there came Jonathan, the son of Abiathar the priest. And Adonijah said to him, "Come in, for you are a prominent man, and bring good news."
1Ki 1:43 Then Jonathan answered and said to Adonijah, "No! Our lord King David has made Solomon king.
1Ki 1:44 The king has sent with him Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites; and they have made him ride on the king's mule.
1Ki 1:45 So Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet have anointed him king at Gihon; and they have gone up from there rejoicing, so that the city is in an uproar. This is the noise that you have heard.

There are also verses about water being present in the temple, after it was completed.
It will take me a little time to find them.
passage.
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The Temple is not mentioned in this passage.

BABerean2 · Jun 9, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
The Temple is not mentioned in this passage.

Do you think they went to Gihon Spring to get a drink of water?

Do you think Solomon needed a bath?

Running Water at the Temple of Zion *

Is it a coincidence that Josephus said the Jewish temple was 600 feet from Fort Antonia and Gihon Spring is 600 feet south of "The Temple Mount"?

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Steve Petersen · Jun 9, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Do you think they went to Gihon Spring to get a drink of water?

Do you think Solomon needed a bath?

Running Water at the Temple of Zion *

Is it a coincidence that Josephus said the Jewish temple was 600 feet from Fort Antonia and Gihon Spring is 600 feet south of "The Temple Mount"?

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I think you ought to take some time to familiarize yourself with the archaeology of Jerusalem. The Gihon is OUTSIDE the walls and at a lower elevation than the City of David.

Steve Petersen · Jun 9, 2018

Dr Martin, Bob Cornuke Temple Location Disputed by Norma Robertson

BABerean2 · Jun 9, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I think you ought to take some time to familiarize yourself with the archaeology of Jerusalem. The Gihon is OUTSIDE the walls and at a lower elevation than the City of David.

Your problem is the fact that Gihon Spring was the water source of the City of David.

Jerusalem, City of David and Area G (BiblePlaces.com)

From the source above...

"City of David

The city of Jerusalem was originally built around the Gihon Spring, on the southeastern hill to the south (left) of the Temple Mount, which is today crowned with the gold-domed Dome of the Rock. Jerusalem has been continuously inhabited since at least 3000 BC, but it was only in the time of Solomon that the city limits expanded beyond the southeastern spur, known today as the “City of David.” "

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Steve Petersen · Jun 10, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Your problem is the fact that Gihon Spring was the water source of the City of David.

Jerusalem, City of David and Area G (BiblePlaces.com)

From the source above...

"City of David

The city of Jerusalem was originally built around the Gihon Spring, on the southeastern hill to the south (left) of the Temple Mount, which is today crowned with the gold-domed Dome of the Rock. Jerusalem has been continuously inhabited since at least 3000 BC, but it was only in the time of Solomon that the city limits expanded beyond the southeastern spur, known today as the “City of David.” "

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I never said otherwise. A channel was cut to it from inside the city, but since water doesn't run UPHILL they had to cut a well down to it. That means, water could NOT have flowed from a temple even if it was there. The source was OUTSIDE and LOWER than the City of David.

Steve Petersen · Jun 10, 2018

The Antonia Fortress

BABerean2 · Jun 10, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
I never said otherwise. A channel was cut to it from inside the city, but since water doesn't run UPHILL they had to cut a well down to it. That means, water could NOT have flowed from a temple even if it was there. The source was OUTSIDE and LOWER than the City of David.

Who would ever build a fortified city and leave the water source outside of the city, unless there was no other option, because it would give enemy forces control of the city's water supply?

The Roman historian Tacitus (Hist. 11.12) wrote about a water source being inside of the Jewish temple.

Earthquakes since 70 AD have changed the local geology somewhat and have since made the waters of the Gihon Spring bitter.
Some believe the Gihon Spring may have been an artesian well during an earlier time period.

We know Fort Antonia was built above the Jewish temple because in Acts 21:32 Roman soldiers ran down to save Paul from the Jewish mob.
In Acts 21:40 Paul spoke to his fellow Jews from the stairs. One would not normally address a crowd from a lower location.
In Acts 23:35 we find that Paul was placed in "Herod's Praetorium".
470 soldiers were sent to accompany Paul. Therefore, we know many more must have been present.

The fact of the matter is that the area now known as "The Temple Mount" is in the location described by Josephus as the site of Fort Antonia. He was alive to see both the Jewish temple and the Roman fort.

The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is outside of the ancient City of David.

Traditions die hard, just as in the case of the location of the real Mount Sinai. (Galatians 4:25)

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Steve Petersen · Jun 10, 2018

Steve Petersen · Jun 10, 2018

Solomon's Jerusalem Temple is not located on top of the Gihon Spring refuted, debunked

BABerean2 · Jun 10, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
Solomon's Jerusalem Temple is not located on top of the Gihon Spring refuted, debunked

Mr. Rudd should know that a sink and a toilet can be placed in the same house.
His commentary is very weak evidence.

All of this ignores the eyewitness account of Josephus who saw Fort Antonia and the Second temple, and described how they were connected and the distance between them.

It also ignores the words of the Jewish leader of Masada, who said the only thing left of Jerusalem in 73 AD was that monument built by the Romans.

Your earlier comments about Wilson's Arch failed to mention the fact that it is attached to the Western Wall.

Either you and your sources are wrong, or Jesus was wrong in Matthew 24:1-2, and in Luke 19:41-44.

Earlier, you seemed to give the impression that Wilson's Arch was not near the Western Wall.

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Steve Petersen · Jun 10, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Mr. Rudd should know that a sink and a toilet can be placed in the same house.
His commentary is very weak evidence.

All of this ignores the eyewitness account of Josephus who saw Fort Antonia and the Second temple, and described how they were connected and the distance between them.

It also ignores the words of the Jewish leader of Masada, who said the only thing left of Jerusalem in 73 AD was that monument built by the Romans.

Your earlier comments about Wilson's Arch failed to mention the fact that it is attached to the Western Wall.

Either you and your sources are wrong, or Jesus was wrong in Matthew 24:1-2, and in Luke 19:41-44.

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Wilson's arch it connected to the Western Wall which Herod built. What does that prove?

Wilson's Arch - Jerusalem 101

BABerean2 · Jun 10, 2018

Steve Petersen said:
Wilson's arch it connected to the Western Wall which Herod built.

Mar 15:16 Then the soldiers led Him away into the hall called Praetorium, and they called together the whole garrison.

Act_23:35 he said, "I will hear you when your accusers also have come." And he commanded him to be kept in Herod's Praetorium.

Who built Fort Antonia for the Romans?

The Strange Story of the False Wailing Wall

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A Third Temple In Jerusalem, Breaking News?

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