from Rev 7:3-8 : All those who are first are of tribal Israel and they are few [144,000] and sealed , the many are saved "after this" [Rev 7:9-10]
from 2 Timothy 2:19 these sealed ones are the only ones who name the true name [purpose] of Jesus Christ , thus these Hebrews are the only real christians at this time up to Jesus' return ...
They go to heaven because they are changed , translated to spirit to be able to enter the third heaven [this heaven is destroyed along with the earth, so no point in going there I guess , perhaps?]
First. Where specifically does it say they are first? Or that they are real Christians?
2Ti 2:1 You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:4 No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.
2Ti 2:5 Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.
2Ti 2:6 The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops.
2Ti 2:7 Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.
2Ti 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
2Ti 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Ti 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
2Ti 2:20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
Not there. The words are the seal. Not any descent.
Well I never said they are special, you made that up...
You make the distinction between sinner and saint, they are special.
they are very ordinary people whom God chose from the beginning because theya re ordinary, stiff-necked , rebellious people, ideal for His proof that He can even persuade such idolatous or rebellious folks to become completely loving ,just by revealing all His truth to them...
Right.
They are made separate by his truth because God will divide the people by means of His truth into saints and sinners at Jesus' return , sheep and goats, those saints that follow Jesus and those sinners who follow Satan still
Where does it state the the sheep are saints? I think I missed that part.
Tis Jesus who says they are 144,000, and that is but a few , but we also know that few find the narrow way from Matthew 7:14 and Jude poits out that even Enoch knew how few saints there would be at first :-
Where does it say that the 144000 are saints? In context, they are Israelites.
Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
MANY of his saints... I already addressed that. But since you missed it...
Jud 1:12 These3778 are the men3778 who are hidden4694 reefs4694 in your love26 feasts26 when they feast4910 with you without870 fear870, caring4165 for themselves1438; clouds3507 without504 water504, carried3911 along3911 by winds417; autumn5352 trees1186 without175 fruit175, doubly1364 dead599, uprooted1610;
Jud 1:13 wild66 waves2949 of the sea2281, casting1890 up their own1438 shame152 like1890 foam1890; wandering4107 stars792, for whom3739 the black2217 darkness4655 has been reserved5083 forever165.
Jud 1:14 It was also2532 about these3778 men that Enoch1802, in the seventh1442 generation from Adam76, prophesied4395, saying3004, "Behold2400, the Lord2962 came2064 with many3461 thousands3461 of His holy40 ones40,
Jud 1:15 to execute4160 judgment2920 upon all3956, and to convict1651 all3956 the ungodly765 of all3956 their ungodly763 deeds2041 which3739 they have done764 in an ungodly764 way764, and of all3956 the harsh4642 things4642 which3739 ungodly763 sinners268 have spoken2980 against2596 Him."
Jud 1:16 These3778 are grumblers1113, finding3202 fault3202, following4198 after2596 their own lusts1939; they speak2980 arrogantly5246, flattering2296 people4383 for the sake5484 of gaining an advantage5622.
Jud 1:17 But you, beloved27, ought to remember3403 the words4487 that were spoken4275b beforehand4275b by the apostles652 of our Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ5547,
Jud 1:18 that they were saying3004 to you, "In the last2078 time5550 there will be mockers1703, following4198 after2596 their own1438 ungodly763 lusts1939."
Jud 1:19 These3778 are the ones who cause592 divisions592, worldly-minded5591, devoid3361, 2192 of the Spirit4151.
Jud 1:20 But you, beloved27, building2026 yourselves1438 up on your most40 holy40 faith4102, praying4336 in the Holy40 Spirit4151,
Jud 1:21 keep5083 yourselves1438 in the love26 of God2316, waiting4327 anxiously4327 for the mercy1656 of our Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ5547 to eternal166 life2222.
G3461
μυρίας
murias
Thayer Definition:
1) ten thousand
2) an innumerable multitude, an unlimited number
3) innumerable hosts
Part of Speech: noun feminine
Three different meanings, unlikely (given the context) that it's 10000.
All created being come to believe in Jesus and accepot his dominion as Lord [Revelation 5:13] , do you not think that is enough to be redeemed, I would have thought that you based your own hope of redemption on the same belief and acceptance of Jesus as Lord....
Quit with the personal comments, this is a debate thread not a 'evaluate your opponent's understanding of the Gospel' thread.
anyways, if one obeys Jesus as Lord then one is loving... sin is not loving [by definition] ... one becomes a saint and for God , after trial of that faith, that is enough for redemption to spirit ...
One becomes a saint by being sinless is your implication- where is that?
God says that he can save all men and has the will to do so, who can prevent him, not even Satan :-
Doesn't mean He will.
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORDS hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Just because one can save someone doesn't mean He will.
1 Timothy 2:4 ...Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:3 This3778 is good2570 and acceptable587 in the sight1799 of God2316 our Savior4990,
1Ti 2:4 who3739 desires2309 all3956 men444 to be saved4982 and to come2064 to the knowledge1922 of the truth225.
G2309
θέλω / ἐθέλω
thelō / ethelō
Thayer Definition:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
1a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
1b) to desire, to wish
1c) to love
1c1) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
1d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Part of Speech: verb
That doesn't mean He will, it means He likes doing it.
To be a saint is to cease being a sinner , saints obey Jesus as Lord in his command to love
That is where in the Bible?
Sinners who call him lord disobey him, thus he is not their lord, but they sin in obedience toi Satan, thus Satan is their rel lord no amtter what they say.... Jesus holds back judgment on who is a saint and who still a sinner until his return, but points out thathe never actually knew any sinner, despite that they call him 'lord' ...
Yeah, and note that 'note everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven'. In other words, not everyone is going to heaven...
Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Already addressed this. Again, it's talking about consistent, unrepentant sin, not all sin.
If one is made a saint then one is freed from past sin by grace... but if one then sins again one is back in slavery to sin , a sinner not a saint ... if one could then stop again it would be no problem, but sin is not like that, it is a slavery , an addiction, one cannot straighten waht is bent because one is bent oneself , one is blinded to even see much sin because one denied one's conscience in order to sin... one cannot remove the denial by oneself ... thus if Jesus returns and finds on slave to sin he will reject one as a sinner , for iniquity
Evidence?
Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?
Quote the 2-3 verses before and after those two verses, it's talking about what GOD has made crooked or straight in the second one, and in context the first is talking about works being made straight- in other words, there are consequences for what we do right and wrong, we can't change them.
Saints thus cannot continue in sin hiding behind grace :-
Key words:
continue in sin. As in refuse to confess and repent, or turn away from it. Sin cannot control their lives, they must have the ability to resist it.
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Interesting.
Rom 6:1 What5101 shall we say3004 then3767? Are we to continue1961 in sin266 so2443 that grace5485 may increase4121?
Rom 6:2 May it never3361 be! How4459 shall we who3748 died599 to sin266 still2089 live2198 in it?
G1961
ἐπιμένω
epimenō
Thayer Definition:
1) to stay at or with, to tarry still, still to abide, to continue, remain
1a) of tarrying in a place
1b) to persevere, continue
1b1) of the thing continued in
1b2) in the work of teaching
1b3) of the blessing for which one keeps himself fit
1b4) denoting the action persisted in
Part of Speech: verb
G2198
ζάω
zaō
Thayer Definition:
1) to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)
2) to enjoy real life
2a) to have true life and worthy of the name
2b) active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God
3) to live, i.e. pass life, in the manner of the living and acting
3a) of mortals or character
4) living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul
5) metaphorically to be in full vigour
5a) to be fresh, strong, efficient
5b) as adjective active, powerful, efficacious
Part of Speech: verb
thanks anyway for your time which is so valuable to you ...
Sorry we could not agree on the right way to tackle discussion
When you post in a debate thread and make claims, you automatically consign yourself to either back those claims or not be taken seriously. That is how these threads work.
Your claims make for an interesting discussion.
