A Strange Debate

[CShephard53]

You are under illusion my friend, we are working through all the claims and counter-claims sytematically working back to use the scripture to demonstarte every point of disagreement if we persist ...

I've made at least 20 points that you have failed to address or even come close to addressing. Where is this 'we'? And I've clearly demonstrated where I disagree and where I agree. In fact, there's been one thing to my memory that we have said we agree on, that the 144000 is the firstfruits.

you must realise that there is much ground to cover here , if you want to do it step by step because we disagre about everything then we can do that , but clearly you will have to stop getting impatient...

Personal attacks have no place here. Claiming I'm impatient does nothing for your argument. You claim there is much ground to cover, yet when I've simplified your claims and asked for evidence to them, you went off on an explanation on how verses you've already stated still mean what they've stated without addressing my rebuttal to them. And you say there is much ground to cover? If there's any reason there would be much ground to cover, it is because you have not rebutted most of the points I have made, in fact, continue to push your claims about how A means Z.

'Reasonable doubt' may be a fix used in man's deeply flawed leagl process, it is far from acceptable here ....

If you meant to say legal process, you're showing a complete disregard for what legal proof is. It has nothing to do with law. It has to do with proving something beyond reasonable doubt. It is a term, and that is its definition.

If we miss anything we can go back and cover it, we have already covered some points three times and still you do not remember them, but OK, we will do it again until you do... or we run out of time ...

Claiming I'm forgetful gets you nowhere. Claiming that 'we' have 'covered' any point on this thread would be a horrible way of saying it. 'We' have not covered anything. I have put forth many questions and evidence that you have not addressed.

In actual fact you have not demonstrated any point in which you disagreed yet , not even to your own criterion, and so you are mistaken about that ... you have convinced yourself and I have suggested the scriptures you might read to see the mistaken interpretations you espouse, but not one point you made has yet been established even beyond reasonable doubt, let alone the unique proof God asserts His scriptures provide...

Mistaken interpretation? Is that all you can come up with, is more claims that I'm mistaken? You haven't backed one iota of that claim, and you still claim it, even after I've pointed out that it is personal (AKA, ad hominem) and has no place here?

If you are tired, then we can take a break, it is hard work ... no problem... if you have had enough then no problem, but please do not make up things wich ain't so ...many of the steps you seem to have agreed once you then deny and we go back... you are making it harder and more time consuming by not keeping record of where we got to ... that would help a lot to save time and needless repetition......

There could be quite a bit less repetition if you actually addressed the questions and evidence I've put forth. I've asked for evidence at least 5 times, and you still haven't given any.

Perhaps it would work better for you if we deal with one point at a time, then we shall just be dealing with the scripture on that point and I will not have to see first if you agree with what I get from it or not , which you find so hard to accept as an efficient way of progressing... so choose one point and let us trace as much scripture as we can find until we prove it to both our satisfactions... try that?

One point at a time? What do you think I've been trying to do by quoting you and replying? Then you say I find it hard to accept as an efficient way of processing? You are getting increasingly offensive in your statements. Perhaps you could stop making things personal? Or perhaps I simply need to close the thread if it happens again?

 

[stranger]

So choose one point ....

 

[CShephard53]

Take your pick. There's plenty to choose from. Perhaps starting with 144000 being the first to go to heaven claim might get us someplace.

 

[stranger]

So what is wrong with Rev 7: 3-10 as proof, fisrt the few then the many ... Rev 7:9 begins with "After this"

and together with Rev 14 which states that the 144,000 are the first fruits of the spirit with which they are sealed in Rev 7:3-4 , as detailed

1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

There are then no others following Jesus but the 144,000 first sealed by the spirit who Jesus says are saved before the many...

I dunno why you don't accept this , did not understand the first time you rejected it... for no reason I could see ...

 

[CShephard53]

So what is wrong with Rev 7: 3-10 as proof, fisrt the few then the many ... Rev 7:9 begins with "After this"

and together with Rev 14 which states that the 144,000 are the first fruits of the spirit with which they are sealed in Rev 7:3-4 , as detailed

1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

There are then no others following Jesus but the 144,000 first sealed by the spirit who Jesus says are saved before the many...

I dunno why you don't accept this , did not understand the first time you rejected it... for no reason I could see ...

I clearly presented my reasons. Your 2 Timothy verse has nothing to do with the Israelites, nor the 144000, I've shown that. The seal it's talking about is the following two statements, not some seal in Revelation. I've shown that quite clearly. You cannot make that jump. It is a jump in logic, which by the way Paul used logic to persuade in Acts 17.

I already addressed firstfruits. I gave you the Greek for it, yet you still insist that it's talking about people being first, despite being shown otherwise.

ἀπαρχή
aparchē
Thayer Definition:
1) to offer firstlings or firstfruits
2) to take away the firstfruits of the productions of the earth which was offered to God. The first portion of the dough, from which sacred loaves were to be prepared. Hence term used of persons consecrated to God for all time.
3) persons superior in excellence to others of the same class
Part of Speech: noun feminine

Where does that talk about them being the first to go to heaven? You have not presented any verses, you've only repeated useless arguments and Scripture for your argument. They are useless to support what you are trying to say. They don't. Any thinking person can see that. So after I've asked for evidence, why do you present the same old stuff that doesn't say what you claim it says, yet again?

If you really don't see the reason I reject your claim, perhaps you should read your verses again. In context. Without some prethoughtout idea of what they say.

 

[stranger]

You simply do not take your meanings from scripture, I see your problem but clearly you do not ... I cannot help you see things the way I do because you use different sources than scripture for understanding its usage of words... thus you continue to ahve an illusion that Iam trying to persuade you to see things as scripture uses them, i am not... I simply wanted to see why people don't believe the scripture as a whole and you showed me ...

I thank you for your time, but we shall never agree in this world silence we use differenet authorities for understanding words...

I am sorry that I gained my quest here and you perhaps did not, but God will resolve it all when the time comes. no hurry then...

be at peace my friend and believe wahtever you like, it is not my problem who you choose to believe in place of the scriptures assertion that it is not of private interpretation and thus explains itself withi itself...

again, many thanks , and I'm sorry I could not help you see the scriptue in its own light.... later maybe, who knows...

 

[CShephard53]

You simply do not take your meanings from scripture, I see your problem but clearly you do not ... I cannot help you see things the way I do because you use different sources than scripture for understanding its usage of words... thus you continue to ahve an illusion that Iam trying to persuade you to see things as scripture uses them, i am not... I simply wanted to see why people don't believe the scripture as a whole and you showed me ...

I thank you for your time, but we shall never agree in this world silence we use differenet authorities for understanding words...

I am sorry that I gained my quest here and you perhaps did not, but God will resolve it all when the time comes. no hurry then...

be at peace my friend and believe wahtever you like, it is not my problem who you choose to believe in place of the scriptures assertion that it is not of private interpretation and thus explains itself withi itself...

again, many thanks , and I'm sorry I could not help you see the scriptue in its own light.... later maybe, who knows...

You can take your superior attitude and arrogance and blow it to smithereens. Accuse me of not taking meanings from Scripture... Scripture was written IN GREEK, and I quoted to you A GREEK DICTIONARY. Is that not good enough for you? You're going to give up on ME as hopeless? Saying I can't see Scripture in its own light?

You contradict yourself. You say I can't see Scripture in its own light, yet you say your point isn't to persuade me to. And say that you're sorry you couldn't 'help me see the Scripture in its own light'. This thread is done, there is nothing more to be gained by 'discussing' with you.

 

[stranger]

I'm sorry that you feel that way my friend... and cannot see why we disagree ... it is only a question of methodology... you think yours is Ok for you, that is fine by me , i have nothing to say that could cahnge your mind, be at peace friend, God will sort out all differences, and we may well both be mistaken ... the spirit of truth of God Himself is the authority, not the scripture.we have.. [John 16:13]

As I say there is no hurry, since we neither of us have all truth to bring to the table... we cannot resolve things by using different methodologies

Do not be so upset about it , there is no need, we just use different methods of approach, either may be true, or neither , we just have no way to know yet...

 

[CShephard53]

I'm sorry that you feel that way my friend... and cannot see why we disagree ... it is only a question of methodology... you think yours is Ok for you, that is fine by me , i have nothing to say that could cahnge your mind, be at peace friend, God will sort out all differences, and we may well both be mistaken ... the spirit of truth of God Himself is the authority, not the scripture.we have.. [John 16:13]

As I say there is no hurry, since we neither of us have all truth to bring to the table... we cannot resolve things by using different methodologies

Do not be so upset about it , there is no need, we just use different methods of approach, either may be true, or neither , we just have no way to know yet...

You can't see why we disagree? Have you not read anything I wrote? Have you not tried seeing things from my perspective?

 

[Miracle Storm]

Thread closed by request of the OP.

Feel free to open a similar thread for any who want to continue discussing.