A Strange Debate

[CShephard53]

Agreed ... it is God who made the saints form siners into saints by baptising them to have faith , it is God who makes sinners who die sinners by not baptising them so they are left to Satan to tempt and they have not all truth to be able to resist him :-

I never agreed on that.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Out of context, He can't violate our free will. I have already pointed this out.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Granted.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

That's talking about all people who have faith...

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Listen, when you guide someone someplace, do you get there right away, or does it take time?

 

[stranger]

He can't violate our free will. I have already pointed this out.

Yes, well , you got the idea off the pagan Greeks, not from scripture...

All the scientific evidence is that man is determinate, not independent, not random to the word at all, but intelligent determined by circumstance and memory and inspiration... not free at all

God can easily change our will by means of His truth, we see the light and turn to love instead of sin, our will changed by God... we can still pretend we changed it 'freely' but in fact it was God's truth that determined what we would change to ...

The bible say absolutely nothing about free-will despite that it is the very basis of Western societies ... we are simply wrong, science proves it, the Bible teaches it, Philosophers finally begin to say it, but most men live in the past and never even question it because it is such a common belief ...

Spinoza absolutely demolished the Greek idea and was ignored by most people , but he showed that true freedom is by means of all knowledge, freedom to be a perfect man , not slave to sin ... his is exactly what the scripture says too except that it says that the movement is initiated by God and only in the few for now .

 

[stranger]

Quote:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
That's talking about all people who have faith...

But you just agreed faith is given by God, it is not from us at all.... thus God determines who has faith now and who only gets it after death and the second resurrection [since those without it die sinners]

 

[stranger]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Listen, when you guide someone someplace, do you get there right away, or does it take time?

Well it took no time or little with Jesus, he went "straightway" to be tempted after his spirit baptism...

But I guess it is conceivable perhaps that it could take a little longer with some men, I do not know.... and it matters little

What I do know though is that it has to take effect long before death ,because men must have time to be trialled in faith during life to perfect their love as saints ...

All the evidence of divided beliefs held all the way to death shows that most men did not receive spirit baptism into the one truth of God in this life ... because they died sinners , not saints, and there is no united belief of men in the ONE truth of God

So it is rather irrelevant whether it takes time or not, but in Jesus it took none or little time... what matters is whether one has time to perfect one's love before death, the final baptism necessary for redemption... and the proof that it doesn't happen for many is that most men die not becoming saints, most men die sinners and NOT knowing all truth before death...

 

[CShephard53]

Well it took no time or little with Jesus, he went "straightway" to be tempted after his spirit baptism...

But I guess it is conceivable perhaps that it could take a little longer with some men, I do not know.... and it matters little

What I do know though is that it has to take effect long before death ,because men must have time to be trialled in faith during life to perfect their love as saints ...

All the evidence of divided beliefs held all the way to death shows that most men did not receive spirit baptism into the one truth of God in this life ... because they died sinners , not saints, and there is no united belief of men in the ONE truth of God

So it is rather irrelevant whether it takes time or not, but in Jesus it took none or little time... what matters is whether one has time to perfect one's love before death, the final baptism necessary for redemption... and the proof that it doesn't happen for many is that most men die not becoming saints, most men die sinners and NOT knowing all truth before death...

It does matter. Jesus was God in the flesh, we are not. Saying that it took little to no time with Jesus is irrelevant to the issue. Guiding takes time. You haven't refuted that.

 

[CShephard53]

Quote:


But you just agreed faith is given by God, it is not from us at all.... thus God determines who has faith now and who only gets it after death and the second resurrection [since those without it die sinners]

No, I did not agree that faith is given by God. Faith comes from Knowledge. Knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit opening our eyes to the Bible's truths. If you wanted to make the stretch that faith came from God, that must be clarified first.

And you've got a huge jump in logic. You cannot jump from 'faith is given by God' to 'God determines who has faith and who gets it later'. It's illogical, and has no backing to it.

 

[CShephard53]

Yes, well , you got the idea off the pagan Greeks, not from scripture...

No, I did not get it from them. If what I believe happens to coincide what they believe to some degree, it does not mean I got it from them. Jump in logic.

Besides, I showed you where in Scripture I got it. You know, Jesus talking with the young rich man. The woman at the well would be a good example as well. Jesus and God do not make people believe. Our hearts must be open to it.

All the scientific evidence is that man is determinate, not independent, not random to the word at all, but intelligent determined by circumstance and memory and inspiration... not free at all

That does not mean man does not have free will. It only means that some things were determined beforehand, and some things God knew beforehand.

God can easily change our will by means of His truth, we see the light and turn to love instead of sin, our will changed by God... we can still pretend we changed it 'freely' but in fact it was God's truth that determined what we would change to ...

Really? Then God can make all my sinful tendencies go away right here and right now. IF I followed your logic here, there is no conceivable reason why anyone is captive to sin. There is no conceivable way your claim would work.

The bible say absolutely nothing about free-will despite that it is the very basis of Western societies ...

Have you never read Romans, or any other book where man is urged to believe? That does not suggest God's sovereignty. See, if as you claim, man has no free will, then life is pointless- there is no reason to do good, since we all end up in the same place anyway.

we are simply wrong, science proves it, the Bible teaches it, Philosophers finally begin to say it, but most men live in the past and never even question it because it is such a common belief ...

You haven't even backed your claims and you then claim that most men ignore what you claim to be the truth?

Spinoza absolutely demolished the Greek idea and was ignored by most people , but he showed that true freedom is by means of all knowledge, freedom to be a perfect man , not slave to sin ... his is exactly what the scripture says too except that it says that the movement is initiated by God and only in the few for now .

And you say I'm not going from Scripture?

 

[stranger]

It does matter. Jesus was God in the flesh, we are not. Saying that it took little to no time with Jesus is irrelevant to the issue. Guiding takes time. You haven't refuted that.

Go back and read what I wrote... there is no need to refute it,as it may or may not be true, but there must be time between knowing all truth and death for the precious trial of faith , even Jesus trial by Satan took quite some time ... men who were sinners might take longer because Satan has more leverage against them and knows there is graeter chance of them turning back to sin...

the only relevant fact to our discussions is that one must be ceased from sin long before death to allow trial of faith, baptism of fire...

 

[stranger]

No, I did not agree that faith is given by God. Faith comes from Knowledge. Knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit opening our eyes to the Bible's truths. If you wanted to make the stretch that faith came from God, that must be clarified first.

But I showed you the scripture which says it is :-

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[stranger]

And you've got a huge jump in logic. You cannot jump from 'faith is given by God' to 'God determines who has faith and who gets it later'. It's illogical, and has no backing to it.

Faith is given by God to some, faith is not given by God to others, God said from the beginning to whom He would give faith fiirst {Exodus 19:6] ... thus God determines who receives faith now in this life and who later, since God also promises to baptise all flesh with the spirit [Joel 2:28 ]

 

[Ormly]

But I showed you the scripture which says it is :-

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Grace is the gift ... not faith!!!

 

[stranger]

Quote:
Yes, well , you got the idea off the pagan Greeks, not from scripture...
No, I did not get it from them. If what I believe happens to coincide what they believe to some degree, it does not mean I got it from them. Jump in logic.

Besides, I showed you where in Scripture I got it. You know, Jesus talking with the young rich man. The woman at the well would be a good example as well. Jesus and God do not make people believe. Our hearts must be open to it.

God is also the one who hardens people's hearts or opens them :-

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

One cannot become a saint by one's own will, only by faith given by God , so God determines it even whether you will accept faith or not... when it is offered ... God has already said that Satan will die a second death, and set the wicked to enter the lake of fire , it is prophesied, it is not open, it is determined, by God...

 

[stranger]

Really? Then God can make all my sinful tendencies go away right here and right now. IF I followed your logic here, there is no conceivable reason why anyone is captive to sin. There is no conceivable way your claim would work.

Of course He could, but He needs sinners for His snare for Satan first, a whole world full of sinners worshipping the dragon , so He alows the blinding of most men now, for a time and they are then easy for Satan to enslave in sin [Rev 13:3-7]

od will baptise all men [Joel 2:28] to know all truth [John 16:13] , but we know it has not happened yet and many men died already in sin and in unbelief ... the truth comes after the second resurrectio then in the new earth, and it is God alone who withholds it from men now, for His own purpose in this earth.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Ormly]

Like I said "Stranger" you aren't desirous to know but to teach what you believe you know.


Buyer beware!!

 

[stranger]

Have you never read Romans, or any other book where man is urged to believe? That does not suggest God's sovereignty. See, if as you claim, man has no free will, then life is pointless- there is no reason to do good, since we all end up in the same place anyway.

If people were not urged to believe then they would not leap into faith in satan the dragon as required because they would see they did not know and admit that they could not believe until God baptsises then to come to know all truth before they have faith in it... it is foolish to believe what one does not know, but God requires it of almost all men [Rev 13:3-7]

Thus even that urging is determinate, and its result

As for life being pointless, all saints come to hate life, but that does noy make it pointless... it serves God's purpose , and that is the only purpose it serves... we will all rejoice in that in the end , but for now things are very different...

The reason to do good is that it saves so much sadness that one would have to go through eventually if one did bad ... but even reason is determinate...

Life is very much God's 'demo' of why He is God to all craetion, setting Satan to try all manner of other wyas than love with his control of this world, and Satan fails to find another way, and Jesus to show that love works, so men see that there is not only a way, but that there is no other way than love....

Ther is no doubt bout the ending, it cannot happen any other way than it does, man is not free to do anything but what the spirit moves him to do ... but God does not tell us all truth till later, so men for now do not know the future ...else we shoul know how it is ceratin, determined ...prophesied ...

T;is God then that created all evil , God who puts it all right in the end... men cannot do anything to change that ... all creation will accept Jesus' dominion, just as he says, and all with be shown the mercy implicit in love... God's 'demo' then has a vey happy ending, just like a Hollywood movie only even better [LOL?]

All creation thus will praise God for being right , but not until the end...

 

[stranger]

Like I said "Stranger" you aren't desirous to know but to teach what you believe you know.
Buyer beware!!

Curious, I am not selling anything, merely discussing what the scripture says...

I am not teaching anything, just pointing at what scripture says to me and asking for discussion of it to see if it says the same to others and then see if other scriptures clear up any differences we may have...

Thatw ay scripture reproves our differences if we let it...

So you misunderstand me rather completely ... if you have something to say about the bible that show anyone is mistaken in this discussion according to your reading of it, then please join in, but this is seriously not the place for your ad hominem and you have it very wrong for some strange reason in yourself... if youwant to talk to me about my desires that you believe I have, then a PM is the only way to do it on this site, so PM me, but it is not permitted in the discussion area [despite that we all fall into that trap sometimes ,when frustrated to be able to express what we are moved by] ... so in a pM please, not in the discussion, discuss the points in scripture, not the person making them ... and I am not saying that I don't make the same mistake , I do, but this really isn't the right place for it... as has been pointed out to me too...

 

[CShephard53]

Yet more unbacked claims...

You're not convincing anyone. You're not presenting any backing for what you claim to be the truth. In fact, I've for the most part given legal proof (proof beyond reasonable doubt) that your claims that I've listed are totally unbacked by Scripture. Why do you persist?

 

[CShephard53]

In addition to that, you claim to be seeking the truth, but in reality you will hear nothing another person has to say. Basically, you've said 'this is what the Scriptures say' then given no reason to believe that they actually say what you say they say. You've then said 'Scriptures are for reproof' implying, quite obviously that you are right and we are wrong. Or 'the Scriptures' are right and we are wrong. Despite, again, giving nothing but claims to what you think they say.

Then you tell us we're not seeking truth? That we're flawed? That we're engaging in ad hominem?

What you've claimed and stated are therefore, for the above reasons, totally biased, ridiculous, and illogical. Please: let us know when you're actually willing to give evidence.

 

[stranger]

Grace is the gift ... not faith!!!

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It says it is not of yourselves , clearly it is not referring to grace because it would be unnecessary to say that unmerited forgiveness is not of oneself ... thus it is faith which is the gift

Equally look at how faith is given by God, he imparts all truth by menas of His own spirit [John 16:13] and so men believe , they have faith because they recognise the truth of God as truth...

Equally look at the grammatical syntax, the two dependent cluases both qualify the words or clause closest to them in English, so again the meaning is that faith is not from ourselves but is a gift from God...

There is simply no way one can read that sentence as you claim.

 

[stranger]

Yet more unbacked claims...

You're not convincing anyone. You're not presenting any backing for what you claim to be the truth. In fact, I've for the most part given legal proof (proof beyond reasonable doubt) that your claims that I've listed are totally unbacked by Scripture. Why do you persist?

You are under illusion my friend, we are working through all the claims and counter-claims sytematically working back to use the scripture to demonstarte every point of disagreement if we persist ... you must realise that there is much ground to cover here , if you want to do it step by step because we disagre about everything then we can do that , but clearly you will have to stop getting impatient...

'Reasonable doubt' may be a fix used in man's deeply flawed leagl process, it is far from acceptable here ....

If we miss anything we can go back and cover it, we have already covered some points three times and still you do not remember them, but OK, we will do it again until you do... or we run out of time ...

In actual fact you have not demonstrated any point in which you disagreed yet , not even to your own criterion, and so you are mistaken about that ... you have convinced yourself and I have suggested the scriptures you might read to see the mistaken interpretations you espouse, but not one point you made has yet been established even beyond reasonable doubt, let alone the unique proof God asserts His scriptures provide...

If you are tired, then we can take a break, it is hard work ... no problem... if you have had enough then no problem, but please do not make up things wich ain't so ...many of the steps you seem to have agreed once you then deny and we go back... you are making it harder and more time consuming by not keeping record of where we got to ... that would help a lot to save time and needless repetition......

Perhaps it would work better for you if we deal with one point at a time, then we shall just be dealing with the scripture on that point and I will not have to see first if you agree with what I get from it or not , which you find so hard to accept as an efficient way of progressing... so choose one point and let us trace as much scripture as we can find until we prove it to both our satisfactions... try that?