A Strange Debate

[Ormly]

Maybe you would care to be a little more forthcoming with whatever scripture you think makes this scripture unbelievable... join the discussion with some reproof from scripture of your own finding?

I don't know. I am questioning my sensibilities in this ..

 

[stranger]

I don't know. I am questioning my sensibilities in this ..

All men serve God's purpose , sinners or saints , He made us that way:-

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Jesus died for everyone and none can say whether someone who is a sinner today with no belief in the Messiah of Israel will believe so at Jesus' return or nay...

We can neither judge men nor their purpose for God until we know all truth from Him [John 16:13] and even then, as saints, we would withold our judgment until it is time for it according to god's perfect scheduling...

So I am only mouthing what I read in the bible, often astonished at what it does say...

These some of the more outstanding statements that rock one out of one's seat :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

What will a billion 'christians' be worshipping when all the world worships an image created by Satan of a christ figure?

Jesus himself is telling us they will worship the dragon, satan, albeit thathe looks like an angel of light ...

How could that be if the image of Jesus in religion is not already false?

So I check it out, and the Jesus of scripture saves the world by first being the messiah of Israel, the king who re-unites Israel into a nation of priests, then uses this perfected priesthood afterwards to redeem billions of gentiles...

Fine, but it means that Israel is indeed having to be redeemed first , which is unstrangely exactly what scripture says, but then gentiles cannot be first , they must be second , so they are redeemed after the second resurrection, not at Jesus return... again the scripture agrees with this ...

but then God does not baptise the gentiles now, but only after their death frees them from sin, so they do not need grace...

I look up the new covenant of grace [Heb 8:8-12] and find that it is indeed only with the House of Judah and the House of Israel... I begin to see that religion is the part that is wrong, not scripture ...

So I look and see taht Jesus said that religion MUST go awry, falling away ... that most men will worship satan as the Christ, not him, and it must be so... it sort of rocks one back in one's chair ...

 

[Ormly]

All men serve God's purpose , sinners or saints , He made us that way:-



Jesus died for everyone and none can say whether someone who is a sinner today with no belief in the Messiah of Israel will believe so at Jesus' return or nay...

We can neither judge men nor their purpose for God until we know all truth from Him [John 16:13] and even then, as saints, we would withold our judgment until it is time for it according to god's perfect scheduling...

So I am only mouthing what I read in the bible, often astonished at what it does say...

These some of the more outstanding statements that rock one out of one's seat :-



What will a billion 'christians' be worshipping when all the world worships an image created by Satan of a christ figure?

Jesus himself is telling us they will worship the dragon, satan, albeit thathe looks like an angel of light ...

How could that be if the image of Jesus in religion is not already false?

So I check it out, and the Jesus of scripture saves the world by first being the messiah of Israel, the king who re-unites Israel into a nation of priests, then uses this perfected priesthood afterwards to redeem billions of gentiles...

Fine, but it means that Israel is indeed having to be redeemed first , which is unstrangely exactly what scripture says, but then gentiles cannot be first , they must be second , so they are redeemed after the second resurrection, not at Jesus return... again the scripture agrees with this ...

but then God does not baptise the gentiles now, but only after their death frees them from sin, so they do not need grace...

I look up the new covenant of grace [Heb 8:8-12] and find that it is indeed only with the House of Judah and the House of Israel... I begin to see that religion is the part that is wrong, not scripture ...

So I look and see taht Jesus said that religion MUST go awry, falling away ... that most men will worship satan as the Christ, not him, and it must be so... it sort of rocks one back in one's chair ...

I just got my sensibilities straightened out. They tell me loud and clear,, No! Don't go there!......

 

[CShephard53]

Then what reason would you suppose Paul would have to address those as "saints" and those "faithful in Christ", in Eph 1:1? Why didn't he just address them both as, sinners, saved by grace?

Saints and faithful in Christ are equated.
1Co 6:1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
1Co 6:4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
1Co 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
1Co 6:6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Note that it doesn't say 'and those who are', it says 'and those who are'. It can be taken to mean that they are either separate or equal, there is nothing conclusive about that verse.

Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
Eph 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,
Eph 2:21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,
Eph 2:22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

Fellow:
sumpolitēs
Thayer Definition:
1) possessing the same citizenship with others, a fellow citizen
1a) of Gentiles as received into communion of the saints
1b) of the people consecrated to God
Part of Speech: noun masculine

Citizens:
sumpolitēs
Thayer Definition:
1) possessing the same citizenship with others, a fellow citizen
1a) of Gentiles as received into communion of the saints
1b) of the people consecrated to God
Part of Speech: noun masculine

Saint:
hagios
Thayer Definition:
1) most holy thing, a saint
Part of Speech: adjective

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=40&version=nas

As you can see, 59 of the 60 times the word 'saints' is used in the NASB, it is that Greek word.

Distinctions needed here, young man, if you want to understand the complete gospel and not just the redemption issues...

Don't reference my age again. It's offensive.

Can you see the issue of intimacy Father wanting and the result it produces when we read John saying this:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9 (KJV)

Now what does being "born again" really mean?

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil". 1 John 3:8 (KJV)

The operative word here is "might". The Son of God, by virtue of the new birth, is manifested in us that He "might" destroy our old nature. The "might" is indicated because the whole thing is dependent upon our willingness in the self renounciation process whereby we become sons.

This has what to do with Christians (biblically, as seen before) being saints?

 

[stranger]

Please don't think me heretical in this however, this how I see it:

I have noticed that thoe who judge others as heretics are seldom saints themselves ... for myself I am not fit to judge anyone , nor desire to do so, and that judgment would only fall back against me if I did ... so i will discuss you points only as I see the scripture in hope that you realise that iam just a sinner seeking to understand how God's words fit together, I am not asserting anything, just trying to see the implicdations of all that the words say

Perfection is Divinity

Divinity cannot be imperfect , but did not Jesus show us that a man can be perfected in love by means of being given baptism of the spirit [when God finally gives it] and trial of that given faith to perfect the love [baptism of fire , a term used by John the baptist] ... thus showing that man can be perfect before being made immortal by tranmslation to spirit? ... in fact more than that, that there is no other way to immortality of the spirit than to become perfect in love during life ?

and we know Christ laid aside that to indwell the man Jesus. He wasn't yet perfected as Divine-Man, purposed for Him by the Father. Though a "reality" in the Mind iof God from all eternity, there were things yet for the man Jesus to accomplish for that to be an "actuality".

It seems a fair paraphrasing of scripture ... the ultimate reality is the spirit , all spirit is from God whetehr manifesting as good or evil, all thus returns to God who gave it .... the physical relm is thus somewhat irrelevant except that it proves that love works AND that all other possible ways fail ... Jesus' task then is to show that perfection of love in the world, in life as a man, works.... Satan's task is to show that no other way works, taht all his bdevious imaginings and wily temptations lead only remorselessly to death [which then frees men from sin] but not to salvation until men follow Jesus' way of love... by menas of baptism of the spirit [promised to all men eventually -Joel 2:28- and then the precious trial of faith which Jesus and the few saints went through in this life before Jesus' return, but most men do not ... most die sinners and cannot be translated to spirit, so there would be no point in their being resurrected at the first resurrection...

Jesus was God's representation of what He wanted man, from the beginning; Adam, to be; Jesus was normal man, here to show us the Father's Ultiimate Intention for His creation! And deomonstrated by Him was "Self-renunciation": the way of the cross.

Yes, all men will follow Jesus as Lord, he says so... Revelation 5:13 ... and so all craetion is redeemed through jesus christ, but clearly not all can be first ... Jesus says how many are first Rev 7:3-8, and that inumerably many of all nations are saved after this ... but after this implies the second resurrection , thus this salvation is in the righteous new earth kingdom come, and the first few are priests because they serve the many later, and they are kings because they rule the many under jesus as king of kings in his kingdom come, but it is not on this earth that it comes :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

God then comes down to dwell with men in the new earth ,in 'New Jerusalem', where righteousness is the law and is upheld by Jesus with 'rod of iron'

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

In His humanity Jesus learned perfection "by the things He suffered". When He satisfied His Father in the tasks and testings presented Him, He ascended to the Mount and was transfigured. That was His "Graduation day"!

That is indeed the precious trial of given fath from God , the baptism of fire taht all men must go through after baptism of the spirit, but it is clear that most men did not get given all truth from God in this life , so men are not all baptised before death [John 16:13] , in fact only the 144,000 are sealed in the spirit in this life [Rev 7:3-4] to be saints now , ceasing to sin because they are so sealed :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Again it is true that most men die sinners , not saints, most men do not depart from iniquity in this life... but many live righteously in the new earth, not just the few who are saints in this life :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

His LOVE for the Father; his purposes for Him and for Himself brought Him back down to get us, to redeem us by going to the cross that we might be the righteousness of Christ.

Jesus ahd a short term purpsoe in this earth which he stated , and a longer term purpose to redeem the many in the new earth, which he also stated ... it is starnge really that so many men conflate the two and think that everyone who is saved must be saved in this life ... the scripture nowhere even sugest that, quite the opposite in fact, that the many are saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10], that the few are first only because God chose them from the beginning to be hs priesthood of kings [Exodus 19:6] for this kingdom come in the new earth

We can see by this, that it is not just to redeem us that He went to the cross but, when He uttered the words: "It is Finished", He made possible our salvation and with the new birth, the imputation of the Father's Nature, that we might accomplish our Son-ship as He did. That by the impartation of His Holy Spirit we can now have the Character of the Father perfected in us as He did before His tranfiguration.

Aagain, read John 16:13, and note taht most men die sinners without all truth of God.... redemption is not finished in this earth, only few find the narrow strait way of saints in this life, god never intended otherwise tahn that His kingdom should grow in stages like a tree growing huge but starting from a tiny sed, growing bit by bit ...

Simply see that the many go by the broad way through death freeing them from sin before they are baptised to knwo all truth after resuyrrection, notin this life... the few find the way now, but teh many are saved too, just afterward, not in this life, not by Kesus' return... without perfection by trial in lidfe no-one can be redeemed to spirit, so the many who die sinners must be perfected in the new earth, not now, and their salvation is at judgment day, not at the return of Jesus in this earth when they are just dead sinners, not dead saints... not raedy for translation as the few saints were BEFORE they died ...

 

[Ormly]

Divinity cannot be imperfect , but did not Jesus show us that a man can be perfected in love by means of being given baptism of the spirit [when God finally gives it] and trial of that given faith to perfect the love [baptism of fire , a term used by John the baptist] ... thus showing that man can be perfect before being made immortal by tranmslation to spirit? ... in fact more than that, that there is no other way to immortality of the spirit than to become perfect in love during life ?

If Jesus was the baptiser as John said He was, when did He ever baptise anyone while on earth?

It seems a fair paraphrasing of scripture ... the ultimate reality is the spirit , all spirit is from God whetehr manifesting as good or evil, all thus returns to God who gave it ....

I need scripture for that if you have any.

the physical relm is thus somewhat irrelevant except that it proves that love works AND that all other possible ways fail ... Jesus' task then is to show that perfection of love in the world, in life as a man, works.

For what reason might you suppose?

... Satan's task is to show that no other way works, taht all his bdevious imaginings and wily temptations lead only remorselessly to death [which then frees men from sin] but not to salvation until men follow Jesus' way of love... by menas of baptism of the spirit [promised to all men eventually -Joel 2:28-

You mean the Acts 2 experience?

and then the precious trial of faith which Jesus and the few saints went through in this life before Jesus' return, but most men do not ... most die sinners and cannot be translated to spirit, so there would be no point in their being resurrected at the first resurrection...

But you just said all spirits return to God?? I am confused...

Yes, all men will follow Jesus as Lord, he says so... Revelation 5:13 ... and so all craetion is redeemed through jesus christ,

No it isn't.... Can't be unless it is that somehow everyone repents and God forgives them. I don't see that in scipture.

but clearly not all can be first ... Jesus says how many are first Rev 7:3-8, and that inumerably many of all nations are saved after this ... but after this implies the second resurrection , thus this salvation is in the righteous new earth kingdom come, and the first few are priests because they serve the many later, and they are kings because they rule the many under jesus as king of kings in his kingdom come, but it is not on this earth that it comes :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

God then comes down to dwell with men in the new earth ,in 'New Jerusalem', where righteousness is the law and is upheld by Jesus with 'rod of iron'

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.



That is indeed the precious trial of given fath from God , the baptism of fire taht all men must go through after baptism of the spirit, but it is clear that most men did not get given all truth from God in this life , so men are not all baptised before death [John 16:13] , in fact only the 144,000 are sealed in the spirit in this life [Rev 7:3-4] to be saints now , ceasing to sin because they are so sealed :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Again it is true that most men die sinners , not saints, most men do not depart from iniquity in this life... but many live righteously in the new earth, not just the few who are saints in this life :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



Jesus ahd a short term purpsoe in this earth which he stated , and a longer term purpose to redeem the many in the new earth, which he also stated ... it is starnge really that so many men conflate the two and think that everyone who is saved must be saved in this life ... the scripture nowhere even sugest that, quite the opposite in fact, that the many are saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10], that the few are first only because God chose them from the beginning to be hs priesthood of kings [Exodus 19:6] for this kingdom come in the new earth



Aagain, read John 16:13, and note taht most men die sinners without all truth of God.... redemption is not finished in this earth, only few find the narrow strait way of saints in this life, god never intended otherwise tahn that His kingdom should grow in stages like a tree growing huge but starting from a tiny sed, growing bit by bit ...

Simply see that the many go by the broad way through death freeing them from sin before they are baptised to knwo all truth after resuyrrection, notin this life... the few find the way now, but teh many are saved too, just afterward, not in this life, not by Kesus' return... without perfection by trial in lidfe no-one can be redeemed to spirit, so the many who die sinners must be perfected in the new earth, not now, and their salvation is at judgment day, not at the return of Jesus in this earth when they are just dead sinners, not dead saints... not raedy for translation as the few saints were BEFORE they died

Sorry, I can't go on with this.

 

[stranger]

If Jesus was the baptiser as John said He was, when did He [n]ever baptise anyone while on earth?

Well it says that Jesus will baptise with spirit and with fire , he left his disciples to do the baptising with water

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

But he could not get the Father to baptise with His spirit until his own love was perfected in death :-

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

so he could not baptise with spirit and fire until after death

 

[stranger]

the ultimate reality is the spirit , all spirit is from God whether manifesting as good or evil, all thus returns to God who gave it ....

I need scripture for that if you have any.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then [at death] shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

But I was only agreeing with what you wrote !

 

[stranger]

Quote of stranger:
the physical relm is thus somewhat irrelevant except that it proves that love works AND that all other possible ways fail ... Jesus' task then is to show that perfection of love in the world, in life as a man, works.
For what reason might you suppose?

Jesus shows that there is one way that God is right, satan shows there are no ways he can devise that God is wrong... toether they prove the glory of God , that He has the only way of life beyond time ... thus one might surmise that that is the reason for good and evil, as proposed in 2Thess 2, the reason why the 'good' God creates evil ... just to show that it doesn't work as He said it would not... so men suffer for sake of God's glory , but God has no alternative than to prove that He is right , to His creation, and that there is no alternative 'right', no other god ...

Thus God must redeem Satan and all men in the end, and by love aslone, else God has failed to be the god of all , failed to love all...

Thus Satn is the left-hand of only two covering cherubs at the very throne of God , taking as-it-were half the power of God over men, half the spirit for evil :-

Eze 2813 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

And Jesus is the other one, standing at the right-hand of God ... bu God gives power mostly to Satan first ,so that he takes over this earth [Rev 13:3-8] bar just a handfl of saints who resist his dominion ... Jesus takes that power away from him in the new earth where people flood into New Jerusalem to live righteously as saints and be redeemed to spirit

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God

 

[stranger]

You mean the Acts 2 experience?

I think it is apparent that Acts 2 describes baptism of the spirit , yes... but again few men go through that in their life now, in this earth, but god has promised it to all flesh eventually [Joel 2:28]

 

[stranger]

Quote from stranger:
and then the precious trial of faith which Jesus and the few saints went through in this life before Jesus' return, but most men do not ... most die sinners and cannot be translated to spirit, so there would be no point in their being resurrected at the first resurrection...
But you just said all spirits return to God?? I am confused...

all spirits return to God at death , but without perfection of love during the life they gave to the body, they can only be resurrected to a new body to start afressh, freed of sin by death [its only wages!]

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

translation to spirit is different because the spirit is then free to manifest and return to God at will... death no longer required

 

[stranger]

Quote from stranger:
Yes, all men will follow Jesus as Lord, he says so... Revelation 5:13 ... and so all creation is redeemed through Jesus Christ,

Can't be unless it is that somehow everyone repents and God forgives them. I don't see that in scipture.

The mercy of God endures for all time , something reoeated obver a hundred times in scripture, more than any othere theme ...

So it is by mercy that the last men are saved, not forgiveness...

But I'm sure you realise that everey created being accepting jesus' dominion as lord is enough for them all to be saved ... and that is what Jesus says in Rev 5:13

Do not doubt God's will to save all men :-

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Do not doubt the power of His truth about love, that He CAN do His will and has set out beforehand His plan to do it in stages , not all at once...

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD’S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

The problem for men is that we do not have enough patience with God's plan ... it is spread out over thousands of years, two earths and three heavens... we see some seventyor eighty years and expect to tellGod how He should have done it, all at once.... a serious error made only by divided religion, it is not in the scripture ...

 

[stranger]

Sorry, I can't go on with this.

Hey my friend, i understand, it took me thirty ears to understand all this and it overwhelms me still... take a break, go pray and meditate ... what God will do is what he will do, nothing we can do to change that ... learning about it before God baptises one and tells one Himself is surely a game for mugs only... better to wait on God if you can bear to do so... I just cannot find anything of value in the world except love, so want to make the most of any chance to get back to God through love that I can ....some hope eh? to stand up to Satan before spirit baptism? It beats just sinning and dying without a fight though .... and who knows who will be baptised between now and Jesus' return, there is still time toperfect one's love and scripture says some Jews will do just that, but only God knows who are the house of Israel scattered amongst the gentiles who will share that role with a few Jews ... one can hope , even if it is a one-in-a-million shot [almost literally] ... there is nothing else to do with this hated life :-

Ecclesiastes 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Ormly]

I think it is apparent that Acts 2 describes baptism of the spirit , yes... but again few men go through that in their life now, in this earth, but god has promised it to all flesh eventually [Joel 2:28]

This began to happen in the sixties. I remember it well, was part of it. The experience began earlier with the Pentecostals around the turn of the twentieth century. By the sixties it had leaped over most all prostestant denominations to land on the Catholic church. There was a "sprinkling" of it falling upon all the churches inbetween. "Look magazine" had a big writeup in '65 advertising the "wonder of it all". Today we find that it is ignored or packaged and dispensed by those who profit by it. The interesting Biblical thing that we see is the God still blesses regardless of the abuse of the those who profess the experience for profit.

"But Lord, didn't we ....... in you Name? .....And Jesus will say: "Depart from me you who work lawlessness.... I never knew you".

Another interesting thing is that the anointing doesn't necessarily equate with intimacy with God... which is what Father wants from those who confess Christ..

Another thing to consider is, if that was the outpouring per Joel 2:38, It must seen that while His Spirit was poured out, man wasn't oblidged to receive as is also the case with His saving grace. I believe that. I am a Pentecostal.

 

[stranger]

This began to happen in the sixties. I remember it well, was part of it. The experience began earlier with the Pentecostals around the turn of the twentieth century. By the sixties it had leaped over most all prostestant denominations to land on the Catholic church. There was a "sprinkling" of it falling upon all the churches inbetween. "Look magazine" had a big writeup in '65 advertising the "wonder of it all". Today we find that it is ignored or packaged and dispensed by those who profit by it. The interesting Biblical thing that we see is the God still blesses regardless of the abuse of the those who profess the experience for profit.

"But Lord, didn't we ....... in you Name? .....And Jesus will say: "Depart from me you who work lawlessness.... I never knew you".

Another interesting thing is that the anointing doesn't necessarily equate with intimacy with God... which is what Father wants from those who confess Christ..

Another thing to consider is, if that was the outpouring per Joel 2:38, It must seen that while His Spirit was poured out, man wasn't oblidged to receive as is also the case with His saving grace. I believe that. I am a Pentecostal.

The problem I have with that is the scripture ... in the firrst place only the few find the narrow way in this life :-

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I look at the modern churches of chrsitendom and see overfed people and 'priests' who let 50,000 little kids starve miserably to death evry day whilst they live the 'esay life' of the 'West' [easy on all but the conscience , depression is a rampant killer disease in all 'christian' countries , linked to high GDP ]

Again the scripture says that spirit baptism will bring all truth to those that receive it... so how is religion still divided if it were guided by the holy spirit ? It cannot be, religion ths must be guided by Satan, as Jesus indicates it must be before he returns [Rev 13:3-8]....

Again where are the saints , all speaking one truth as one, they just are silent in this time :-

Amos 5:13 Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time.

men then , including those in modern apostate religion [2 Thessalonians 2:3] are riding for a massive fall, an unprecedentedly bad time , the tribulation begins... suddenly , unexoectedly to all but the saints [and again where are any saints saying this in modern religion]

Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

If even a few in relkigious tradition were saints then they would surely unite the rest by speaking as one in undeniable truth of God, it ain't happening...

Yet Jesus also says that when religion unites it will not be in fath in him, but in faith in a false christ figure created by Satan... why do men ignore this and carry on as if it had never been said by Jesus ?

So the fruits show that whatever this was it is not spirit baptism ....it did not unite the churches into one truth of God, so it can only be of Satan, the beginning of his lying wonders perhaps?

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[Ormly]

The problem I have with that is the scripture ... in the firrst place only the few find the narrow way in this life :-

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I look at the modern churches of chrsitendom and see overfed people and 'priests' who let 50,000 little kids starve miserably to death evry day whilst they live the 'esay life' of the 'West' [easy on all but the conscience , depression is a rampant killer disease in all 'christian' countries , linked to high GDP ]

Again the scripture says that spirit baptism will bring all truth to those that receive it... so how is religion still divided if it were guided by the holy spirit ? It cannot be, religion ths must be guided by Satan, as Jesus indicates it must be before he returns [Rev 13:3-8]....

Again where are the saints , all speaking one truth as one, they just are silent in this time :-

Amos 5:13 Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time.

men then , including those in modern apostate religion [2 Thessalonians 2:3] are riding for a massive fall, an unprecedentedly bad time , the tribulation begins... suddenly , unexoectedly to all but the saints [and again where are any saints saying this in modern religion]

Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

If even a few in relkigious tradition were saints then they would surely unite the rest by speaking as one in undeniable truth of God, it ain't happening...

Yet Jesus also says that when religion unites it will not be in fath in him, but in faith in a false christ figure created by Satan... why do men ignore this and carry on as if it had never been said by Jesus ?

So the fruits show that whatever this was it is not spirit baptism ....it did not unite the churches into one truth of God, so it can only be of Satan, the beginning of his lying wonders perhaps?

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

That's right.

Only a few will find it. But then Jesus said it would be that way in the last days.

 

[stranger]

That's right.

Only a few will find it. But then Jesus said it would be that way in the last days.

The scriptural point that alerted me to it first is that Jesus a=says there are but 144,000 saints in all the btime between his visits, that ammounts to just some couple of thousand alive at any one time ... scattered all over the world ,since the seven churches of God were razed to the ground never to reassemble , that not only means that nbone of bthe modern churches ahs anything to do with god's priesthood, and that the saints are mostly alone with only God for company until two or three meet occasionally, when Jesus shows up as promised...

It rather shows what modern religion is about, the strong delusion of almost all men of 2Thess 2 ...

 

[Ormly]

The scriptural point that alerted me to it first is that Jesus a=says there are but 144,000 saints in all the btime between his visits, that ammounts to just some couple of thousand alive at any one time ... scattered all over the world ,since the seven churches of God were razed to the ground never to reassemble , that not only means that nbone of bthe modern churches ahs anything to do with god's priesthood, and that the saints are mostly alone with only God for company until two or three meet occasionally, when Jesus shows up as promised...

It rather shows what modern religion is about, the strong delusion of almost all men of 2Thess 2 ...

No one has sufficient understanding of such things to convince me that it is something I need to be concerned with....therefore.... I am not. Son-ship, heir-ship and throne-ship is what I am concerned about. People who say they are of Christ know little and most couldn't care less about this, believing redemption to be only issue Jesus died for ... all for them.

 

[stranger]

No one has sufficient understanding of such things to convince me that it is something I need to be concerned with....therefore.... I am not. Son-ship, heir-ship and throne-ship is what I am concerned about. People who say they are of Christ know little and most couldn't care less about this, believing redemption to be only issue Jesus died for ... all for them.

That is very interesting to me, why do you think Jesus had to die ? {by living a refectly loving life he justified his translation that he need not have seen death , was a 'friend of God' just as much as Enoch who was translated and never saw death... God witnessed that He was pleased with him, so what did his death achieve and how did it achieve it?}

Was it God's way of saying that He is the cause of sin , and thus shiould take upon Himself through Jesus the wages of sin?

Was it empathy with mankind which He requires to suffer for sake of His purpose in the earths?

For me the story of hiding sin of 'believers' in jesus' skirts is simply injustice ... they don't really obey Jesus as Lord because if they did they would be loving all the tme, never sin, but they most remain sinners to death, never coming to obey him ... so as he says , he is not their lord at all ,a nd he will reject them at his return because they have not ceased from sin [Romans 6]

Did you have any insight into this yet?

 

[Ormly]

That is very interesting to me, why do you think Jesus had to die ? {by living a refectly loving life he justified his translation that he need not have seen death , was a 'friend of God' just as much as Enoch who was translated and never saw death... God witnessed that He was pleased with him, so what did his death achieve and how did it achieve it?}

Was it God's way of saying that He is the cause of sin , and thus shiould take upon Himself through Jesus the wages of sin?

Was it empathy with mankind which He requires to suffer for sake of His purpose in the earths?

For me the story of hiding sin of 'believers' in jesus' skirts is simply injustice ... they don't really obey Jesus as Lord because if they did they would be loving all the tme, never sin, but they most remain sinners to death, never coming to obey him ... so as he says , he is not their lord at all ,a nd he will reject them at his return because they have not ceased from sin [Romans 6]

Did you have any insight into this yet?

Nope. Fraid I don't. I believe my agrument would be fruitless. There are other threads where I have commented on these issues. Please search them out if your sincerely interested in my point of view.

Cheers ....