A Strange Debate

[stranger]

That's talking about them being sealed, not going to heaven... from the sounds of it, the multitude is already IN heaven.

So consider why they are being sealed by the holy spirit in spirit baptism, it is just the second stage after water baptism, and the third stage is trial of this given faith [baptism of 'fire'] ... and what is the end of that except perfection of love so that they can be translated to spirit and roam heaven...

As for the multitude before the throne of God, that is not in heaven because God has come down on earth , the new earth, in New Jerusalem by then to dwell with men ...

Also you seem obsessed with the idea of 'beyond reasonable doubt'
, an idea invented by sinners to make funsound judgments when there is lack of evidence... but the truth of God is not established that way , you have borrowed a method from sinners, it is not the way the scripture teaches one to learn...

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

So leave the 'theological methods' in the bin and choose God's way of understanding things , else we shall get nowhere in this [as God already predicts we shall , else sinners could become saints of themselves without the spirit of truth from God ...]

 

[stranger]

Where does it say they're destroyed?

Matthew 7:13 [KJV] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 7:13 [REB] Enter ye in at, the narrow gate; because broad and roomy is the way that leadeth unto destruction,—and, many, are they who enter thereby:

The few go by the strait narrow way, so these are the 144,000 saints sealed in this life to be saints , the first fruits of the spirit of truth , so the many go by the broad way of death and destruction in the end of this world, but clearly Jesus survived destruction [Greek 'apoleia'] in death by crucifixion, ... so we have his witness too that the many are saved after death and destruction -Rev 7:9-10, but after the few...

Of the few some do not die, and the rest are resurrected at the resurrection of the just , those justified in this life by spirit baptism

Of the many all die for sin and cannot be resurrected at the first resurrection since they would simply then die again in the end of this earth... until they triumph in baptism of fire none is ready for translation, and one cannot even begin until one has all truth of God because Satan is there with whatever temptation works to stop one loving, cause one to sin, cause one not to obey Jesus so he is not one's lord, but Satan is ...

Satn's claim is that he is the god of men [2Thess 2:4] because all men come to sin in obedience to hime.... Jesus' claim is that he did not sin and that men can thus live without sin once freed from it , and live in love instead...

That love must be perfect to be love is shown in many places, but this one is perhaps enough :-

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

A single sin is then enough to enslave one to it and require death to free one from it ... being baptised of the spirit frees one from sin too, but is only given to the few in this life , the many in the new earth in resurrection [the second, of the unjust, the unjustified]
[thus if you had watched even five minutes of the video you would have seen how entrenched we allare in sin, that almost all men already have the 'mark of the beast' in their minds and actions, that we already cannot buy or sell without having it because our money system is not fair, not just, and is bound to collapse and hurt billions of people very badly indeed]

Most people cannot be perfect in this world simply because they are not yet baptised of the spirit , so are still enslaved to sin ... it is God alone who baptises folks, so look to why He will not baptise more than the few now... the answer is not that hard to find, because the few are predestinated to be priests and kings... who will they then rule and minister to afterwards?

Ther is only the masses of sinners freed from sin by death to minister to, but that is only after they are resurrected, the second resurrection ...

 

[stranger]

Those who do not have faith, who do not repent, who do not confess- these are not given grace. Revelation 21:8, but 3-8 for context.

Ah, I see your oversight at last... you have it backwards, repentance comes after baptism of the spirit :-

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

It is God who gives baptism of His spirit to those He chose from the beginning to be first, the ones He requires as saints now [ perhaps so they can be ready to rule and minister to the masses later? that why they are called kings and priests?]

Thus God determines who will be saved by the strait narrow way of the three baptisms in this life and who will do so in the next life ... that is His plan,one cannot change it because God has set bHis name of Israel, one is either of Israel or one is not [but much of Israel are not Jews, but the lost house of Israel, men who are descendants of Jacob, but live as gentiles and never accepted Judaism since the division of Israel]

One cannot repent fully until God shows all one's sin , because men are in denial to themselves about our sin, we overlook it because it is everyday in this world, normal in this world, instituted in this world...

Thus we cannot repent all our sin until after spirit baptism, and so God give it as a gift before repentance to those few He requires now

Equally with confession, there is no point confessing the false image of a saviour and god created by Satan for the masses of modern religion of sinners [complete with sinner priests, not saints, teaching other priests BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TAUGHT BY GOD in spirit baptism, but remain sinners ,even though they dress up and live in mock temples with hewn altars and impress many sinners ,and claim they are holy ... but one fruit of the spirit is all truth of God, which would unite them as one if they had it... so they remain divided and by their fruits we should know them, but people do not want to look and see that the 'emperor has no clothes', no 'white raiment' from God ... sinners are not saints, no matter how much they want to be, no matter how much the dress up and make believe, and fool many...

So God requires but a few, and by leap of faith into believing men's private interpretations of scripture one simply deludes oneself that one's faith is that required by God for redemption, if faith does not yield perfect love then it is dead, it is faith in the wrong thing :-

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
...
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
...
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The few saints are saved by grace then, but not by faith they leapt into because they wanted to be saved from death and hell :-

Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Again, it is God who has already said who will be saved now, who will be disgraced by a life of sin to the end now :-

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, beingpredestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Thus the few firstborn firstfruits are the saints of this world predestinated to be so, fore- known because God claimed them as His from the beginning to show that he can do this, His truth is that powerful to change many men from sinners to saints... without more than His say-so , by faith then ... but one cannot even begin trial until God baptises one with his spirit and He makes it clear that he will not baptise the many now, that grace is only offered to the House of Judah and the House of Israel, to those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9]... and even of these innumerable many, He takes only 144,000 of twelve of the tribes only [ Dan and arguably Ephraim are not in the list made by Jesus in Rev 7:5-8]

What use then sinners inventing the new religion of [originally only Roman] 'christianity' removing its 'Hebrew' prophecies of God, its promises of God to Israel alone ...?

Well God has a great use for it and lets it envelope the whole world under the antichrist [Rev 13:3-8] bar His very few saints left alive by then , maybe a couple of thousand against the whole army of false apostles, ministers of righteousness of Satan as god :-

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The message of divided religion somehow does not get through yet to sinners, that they are not saints, and thus not of the congregation of God yet ... it is an amazing , even awesome, demo of Satan's powers of persuasion , a whole world finally united in religion and secular power , but worshipping an image of god and saviour created by Satan...

Why then does God allow such strong delusion of so many? 2Thess 2 expands the explanation given in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28... the snare set for Satan is in effect baited with the many sinners of the earth, Satan admits he believes he is above God [2Thess 2:4] because almost all men come to worship him as the Christ ... yet in fact he is one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in the Greek]

Thus the many cannot be redeemed now because God requires them to first get Satan to confess his blasphemy, then God shows him who is THE god, by taking his life as a mortal man [much as Jesus' life was taken as a mortal, but this time justly, for blasphemy, whereas Jesus' death was unjust] ... Satan has no way to prevent his death, nor any way to escape death for the thousand years he is imprisoned by it ...

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

Satan losed? ... what for? ... Why should Satan be set free after deceiving almost everyone who ever lived and puffing himself up to believe he is the god of men ?

God still has use for him to tempt the many in their trial after the second resurrection, thus he is resurrected with them to trial them just as he did Jesus and the few in this life, the many also need baptism of fire ...

Thus God's plan is what determines who is saved now and who later, not what men decide out of themselves [which is mostly put there by Satan anyway] , this is what He says in the above and other scriptures and so it is what will happen...

God determines the faith of most men by means of His truth, some will though follow Satan even through a second death as wages of sin in the new earth , sin does not end with the establishment of the kingdom on earth, that is only the beginning of the next phase in Gods plan, removing innumerably many from Satan's grasp [Rev 7:9-10]

Thus it is rather crucial to see that faith is GIVEN to the few by God, but faith in religion is taken by the many from Satan... men think that they leapt in faith into belief in sinners' teachings because they decided it themselves, but in fact they were persuaded to do so by threats of punishment if they dd not , promises of easy salvation without tackling their sin, and so forth, a massive string of delusions that God allows because it makes His plan work :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[Ormly]

Ah, I see your oversight at last... you have it backwards, repentance comes after baptism of the spirit :-

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

It is God who gives baptism of His spirit to those He chose from the beginning to be first, the ones He requires as saints now [ perhaps so they can be ready to rule and minister to the masses later? that why they are called kings and priests?]

Thus God determines who will be saved by the strait narrow way of the three baptisms in this life and who will do so in the next life ... that is His plan,one cannot change it because God has set bHis name of Israel, one is either of Israel or one is not [but much of Israel are not Jews, but the lost house of Israel, men who are descendants of Jacob, but live as gentiles and never accepted Judaism since the division of Israel]

One cannot repent fully until God shows all one's sin , because men are in denial to themselves about our sin, we overlook it because it is everyday in this world, normal in this world, instituted in this world...

Thus we cannot repent all our sin until after spirit baptism, and so God give it as a gift before repentance to those few He requires now

Equally with confession, there is no point confessing the false image of a saviour and god created by Satan for the masses of modern religion of sinners [complete with sinner priests, not saints, teaching other priests BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TAUGHT BY GOD in spirit baptism, but remain sinners ,even though they dress up and live in mock temples with hewn altars and impress many sinners ,and claim they are holy ... but one fruit of the spirit is all truth of God, which would unite them as one if they had it... so they remain divided and by their fruits we should know them, but people do not want to look and see that the 'emperor has no clothes', no 'white raiment' from God ... sinners are not saints, no matter how much they want to be, no matter how much the dress up and make believe, and fool many...

So God requires but a few, and by leap of faith into believing men's private interpretations of scripture one simply deludes oneself that one's faith is that required by God for redemption, if faith does not yield perfect love then it is dead, it is faith in the wrong thing :-

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
...
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
...
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The few saints are saved by grace then, but not by faith they leapt into because they wanted to be saved from death and hell :-

Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Again, it is God who has already said who will be saved now, who will be disgraced by a life of sin to the end now :-

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, beingpredestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Thus the few firstborn firstfruits are the saints of this world predestinated to be so, fore- known because God claimed them as His from the beginning to show that he can do this, His truth is that powerful to change many men from sinners to saints... without more than His say-so , by faith then ... but one cannot even begin trial until God baptises one with his spirit and He makes it clear that he will not baptise the many now, that grace is only offered to the House of Judah and the House of Israel, to those whose fathers broke the old covenant [Heb 8:8-9]... and even of these innumerable many, He takes only 144,000 of twelve of the tribes only [ Dan and arguably Ephraim are not in the list made by Jesus in Rev 7:5-8]

What use then sinners inventing the new religion of [originally only Roman] 'christianity' removing its 'Hebrew' prophecies of God, its promises of God to Israel alone ...?

Well God has a great use for it and lets it envelope the whole world under the antichrist [Rev 13:3-8] bar His very few saints left alive by then , maybe a couple of thousand against the whole army of false apostles, ministers of righteousness of Satan as god :-

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The message of divided religion somehow does not get through yet to sinners, that they are not saints, and thus not of the congregation of God yet ... it is an amazing , even awesome, demo of Satan's powers of persuasion , a whole world finally united in religion and secular power , but worshipping an image of god and saviour created by Satan...

Why then does God allow such strong delusion of so many? 2Thess 2 expands the explanation given in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28... the snare set for Satan is in effect baited with the many sinners of the earth, Satan admits he believes he is above God [2Thess 2:4] because almost all men come to worship him as the Christ ... yet in fact he is one in place of Christ ['antichristos' in the Greek]

Thus the many cannot be redeemed now because God requires them to first get Satan to confess his blasphemy, then God shows him who is THE god, by taking his life as a mortal man [much as Jesus' life was taken as a mortal, but this time justly, for blasphemy, whereas Jesus' death was unjust] ... Satan has no way to prevent his death, nor any way to escape death for the thousand years he is imprisoned by it ...

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

Satan losed? ... what for? ... Why should Satan be set free after deceiving almost everyone who ever lived and puffing himself up to believe he is the god of men ?

God still has use for him to tempt the many in their trial after the second resurrection, thus he is resurrected with them to trial them just as he did Jesus and the few in this life, the many also need baptism of fire ...

Thus God's plan is what determines who is saved now and who later, not what men decide out of themselves [which is mostly put there by Satan anyway] , this is what He says in the above and other scriptures and so it is what will happen...

God determines the faith of most men by means of His truth, some will though follow Satan even through a second death as wages of sin in the new earth , sin does not end with the establishment of the kingdom on earth, that is only the beginning of the next phase in Gods plan, removing innumerably many from Satan's grasp [Rev 7:9-10]

Thus it is rather crucial to see that faith is GIVEN to the few by God, but faith in religion is taken by the many from Satan... men think that they leapt in faith into belief in sinners' teachings because they decided it themselves, but in fact they were persuaded to do so by threats of punishment if they dd not , promises of easy salvation without tackling their sin, and so forth, a massive string of delusions that God allows because it makes His plan work :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Unbelievable!! What a distortion of the word of God.. Pity

 

[stranger]

Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Clearly one can take this too literally and to apply to other times than when it was written [sadly we do not have the original scripture as far as I know] ... Jesus was one who was righteous at a later time...

God says others are righteous at much earlier times [and who will argue with Him?] :-

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? [ The righteous thus walked away from destruction to tell the tale , there were not even five, but there were more than none!]

Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!
[Jacob was righteous then ]

1 Kings 8:32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; andjustifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners inthe congregation of the righteous.

[a congregation with no-one in it? I do not think so really... ]

Psalms 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

[How can the Lord know the way of no-one?]

Psalms 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

{promises to no-one, easy to keep ? ]

Psalms 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Is this about no-one, the wicked come to an end and there is no-one left, or do the wicked renounce their wickedness and get forgiven because they become righteous ? [Ezek 18:21]

Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Why would God judge the righteous if there were none to judge and He knew there were none to judge, just making it an easy job for Himself perhaps ?

Psalms 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

[How can sinners seak against the righteous if there are none to speak against?]

Psalms 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

[How can they if there are none, has David gone crazy handing out advice to no-one?]

Psalms 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

[How does he see and hear what doesn't exist ?]

etc, etc, etc ...

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

There is hardly any scripture book [scroll] that doesn't discuss the righteous... why take one scripture as applying to every person in every age and disregard many hundreds of scriptures which you say you have read which show the conclusion you come to is false ?

You decided what to believe then looked for scripture to support it and then ignored or denied the mass of scripture that shows the mistake ...easy to do if one is in a hurry or has an axe to grind because of polarisation in debate in place of co-operative searching the whole scripture to find the real truth of God.... it is HARD because people are meant to give up on it and accept Satan's world religion , God requires it of the many and even the saints are close to giving up fighting the whole world when Jesus returns and cuts short their anguish at being attacked for telling only the truth... to all those they love, everyone...

It requires then a different approach than you rules of 'debate' , they just cause entrenchment in theories sold by Satan , and without the spirit of truth all we have to defeat the subtle wily twisting of the truth that seems so plausible , even beyond 'reasonable doubt', is the scripture, ragged and bedraggled by misuse as it is ...

Not much hope then of not being deceived without spirit baptism, but Satan even thought of that and fools many that they have spirit baptism without knowing all truth of God [John 16:13].... quite an achievement really, but men will believe what they want to believe, and are very reluctant to face the test of even matching their beliefs against every word we have from God [however mangled by men]

 

[stranger]

Christ is not a what. Christ is a who. Christ literally means anointed one. In the popular sense, Christ is the savior of all mankind- Jesus. In which case, He'd be God and all that implies and means.

The Christ is a role, not a person, the person was named something like 'Yeshua' [transliterated from Hebrew] which got mangled by sinners into 'Jesus' because of poor representation of the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew ... thus Jesus/ Yeshua is the Christ but the Christ is a role, not a person... being king is a role, not a person...

Jesus is annointed to be the king of Israel, the still-awaited-by-most-Jews Messiah [Hebrew for the annointed, the king]

The point being taht Jesus only saves the world by first redeeming Israel to be the priests and kings under him who minister and rule in the kingdom in which jesus saves the world...

But I ma glad you acknowledge at least part of his role , to save all the craetion, not just part of it, it shows some progress toward acceptin his full declared role in scripture as king of Israel, the prophesied Messiah who re-unites the two houses, teh two kingdoms, the Jews with the House of Israel as one [something most Jews do not even care to think about because the House of Israel was rejected by the House of Judah for idolatry ...

To God their petty squabble matters not, they will be re-united and the House of Judah are just as sinful in their ways of Judaism as the House of israel is in its idolatry, as far as God is concerened... both wee rejected because both broke the old covenant, both are now accepted under a new covenant with descendants of those who broke the old one Heb 8:8-9

No-one else is anywhere offered the new covenant with Israel, since there is no need, all bar the few saints of Israel will die and be freed of sin that way... to be ministered to after the second resurrection by Israel finally re-united as a kingdom of priests under their Messiah...

Jesus then is anointed to the role of king of Israel, but he is king of kings since Israel are made kings over the gentiles in the kingdom of God come [as we all pray fro, but few seem to understand that Israel are the kings Jesus is king over, and so israel are a nation of king-priests, images of the son of God, who rule the gentiles and minister the truth to them in the new earth..

The main offshoot of this plan of God is that modern christianity AND the Jews both have it wrong because God requires the gentiles to be held back from knowing the truth until the kingdom is ready for them and God has used their strong delusion as bait for getting Satan to confess his blasphemy [2Thess 2:4]

thus God knows full well that religion of the gentiles will go astray at this time, indeed it must do

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Thus if one learns religion from the world of sinners one will be decieved strongly because God requires it
...
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[stranger]

Coming from someone who has used ad hominem, or attacked my person at least three times now. Show me where I've returned the favor.

"Methinks the lady protesteth too much"

No-one attacked you my friend, you just don't like the arrows God sticks in you with His words.... who does ? ... I sympathise with you, it hurts as badly as anything ... one can see how Cain felt when his scarifice was rejected , it is as close to unbearable as God can make it ... but carry on "kicking against the pricks" of God's arrows ... He seems to require it of most people for now... who can fight that?

 

[Ormly]

Clearly one can take this too literally and to apply to other times than when it was written [sadly we do not have the original scripture as far as I know] ... Jesus was one who was righteous at a later time...

God says others are righteous at much earlier times [and who will argue with Him?] :-

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? [ The righteous thus walked away from destruction to tell the tale , there were not even five, but there were more than none!]

Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!
[Jacob was righteous then ]

1 Kings 8:32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; andjustifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners inthe congregation of the righteous.

[a congregation with no-one in it? I do not think so really... ]

Psalms 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

[How can the Lord know the way of no-one?]

Psalms 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

{promises to no-one, easy to keep ? ]

Psalms 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Is this about no-one, the wicked come to an end and there is no-one left, or do the wicked renounce their wickedness and get forgiven because they become righteous ? [Ezek 18:21]

Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Why would God judge the righteous if there were none to judge and He knew there were none to judge, just making it an easy job for Himself perhaps ?

Psalms 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

[How can sinners seak against the righteous if there are none to speak against?]

Psalms 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

[How can they if there are none, has David gone crazy handing out advice to no-one?]

Psalms 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

[How does he see and hear what doesn't exist ?]

etc, etc, etc ...

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

There is hardly any scripture book [scroll] that doesn't discuss the righteous... why take one scripture as applying to every person in every age and disregard many hundreds of scriptures which you say you have read which show the conclusion you come to is false ?

You decided what to believe then looked for scripture to support it and then ignored or denied the mass of scripture that shows the mistake ...easy to do if one is in a hurry or has an axe to grind because of polarisation in debate in place of co-operative searching the whole scripture to find the real truth of God.... it is HARD because people are meant to give up on it and accept Satan's world religion , God requires it of the many and even the saints are close to giving up fighting the whole world when Jesus returns and cuts short their anguish at being attacked for telling only the truth... to all those they love, everyone...

It requires then a different approach than you rules of 'debate' , they just cause entrenchment in theories sold by Satan , and without the spirit of truth all we have to defeat the subtle wily twisting of the truth that seems so plausible , even beyond 'reasonable doubt', is the scripture, ragged and bedraggled by misuse as it is ...

Not much hope then of not being deceived without spirit baptism, but Satan even thought of that and fools many that they have spirit baptism without knowing all truth of God [John 16:13].... quite an achievement really, but men will believe what they want to believe, and are very reluctant to face the test of even matching their beliefs against every word we have from God [however mangled by men]

More of the same. Just refusing to make easy distinctions.

I guess we are given to believe that righteousness was a gift in the Bible.

 

[Ormly]

The Christ is a role, not a person, the person was named something like 'Yeshua' [transliterated from Hebrew] which got mangled by sinners into 'Jesus' because of poor representation of the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew ... thus Jesus/ Yeshua is the Christ but the Christ is a role, not a person... being king is a role, not a person...

Jesus is annointed to be the king of Israel, the still-awaited-by-most-Jews Messiah [Hebrew for the annointed, the king]

The point being taht Jesus only saves the world by first redeeming Israel to be the priests and kings under him who minister and rule in the kingdom in which jesus saves the world...

But I ma glad you acknowledge at least part of his role , to save all the craetion, not just part of it, it shows some progress toward acceptin his full declared role in scripture as king of Israel, the prophesied Messiah who re-unites the two houses, teh two kingdoms, the Jews with the House of Israel as one [something most Jews do not even care to think about because the House of Israel was rejected by the House of Judah for idolatry ...

To God their petty squabble matters not, they will be re-united and the House of Judah are just as sinful in their ways of Judaism as the House of israel is in its idolatry, as far as God is concerened... both wee rejected because both broke the old covenant, both are now accepted under a new covenant with descendants of those who broke the old one Heb 8:8-9

No-one else is anywhere offered the new covenant with Israel, since there is no need, all bar the few saints of Israel will die and be freed of sin that way... to be ministered to after the second resurrection by Israel finally re-united as a kingdom of priests under their Messiah...

Jesus then is anointed to the role of king of Israel, but he is king of kings since Israel are made kings over the gentiles in the kingdom of God come [as we all pray fro, but few seem to understand that Israel are the kings Jesus is king over, and so israel are a nation of king-priests, images of the son of God, who rule the gentiles and minister the truth to them in the new earth..

The main offshoot of this plan of God is that modern christianity AND the Jews both have it wrong because God requires the gentiles to be held back from knowing the truth until the kingdom is ready for them and God has used their strong delusion as bait for getting Satan to confess his blasphemy [2Thess 2:4]

thus God knows full well that religion of the gentiles will go astray at this time, indeed it must do

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Thus if one learns religion from the world of sinners one will be decieved strongly because God requires it
...
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

My goodness gracious!!! WOW!

 

[stranger]

Welcome to debate. Learn how it works before you engage in it next time. Learn what a fallacy is. Learn what the point is.

Why do you not stop and LOOK and see that debate DOESN'T work at all ?

That inventing a better way to the truth than God's way described in scripture is for sinners which scripture labels "foolish" ...

Love is the only way and it is lost very quickly as soon as one gets debate ... people just dig in , taking their current beliefs even more seriously and defending them , instead of both parties starting out from respect for the whole of scripture which in current context is the authority ...

As I expected, you do not like my approach in trying to see what we agree on first and then addressing what we do not from scripture .... so you revert to the adversarial approach, closing the mind to any possibility of listening to the whole of scripture if you can drag a single line kicking and screaming to defend a hopelessly outnumbered position ... not that number proves anything, just that ignoring so much and clinging to so little, just to follow sinners' and the popularity of current religion, applying your logic to everything but what you think supports your position ,which somehow escapes surveillance by the same standard ....

I thank you for the lesson in how God blinds mankind, sory you never thought my approach was better ....since it attempts to avoid adversarial debate ... you will see eventually that even claiming to have won a debate with a whole fistful of much-prized points is no substitute for winning the truth of scripture which can only emerge from seeing the whole as one truth ... you want debate, I do not , you want to prove you are right, I do not , ... you would do better to go and read the bible and pray and meditate, because you start out already disbelieving anything but what little you think you have from learning from sinners what theyw ant you to think the saints say...

Istead we could have sought the truth from scripture by co-operation, by trying to see what the other person sees... al that I see fromyou so far is only the old tired falling away predicted by Jesus for the masses .. things that have been repeated over and over until mmost sinners really believe they are in scripture , even their mums and dads believed them... well i cannot stop that process, since it is prophesied... thanks anyway, cos' you proved God is right about that ... and I am wrong as usual to think that men can rise above satan's wily deception of religion of men by simply seeing scripture as the wholeness it must be, self-consistent, unique, unambiguous... one just cannot do that without quoting all teh scripture, and one cannot thus even try to do it here without co-operation and both partners in discussion seeking to understand the other , not to treat as adversary ... not to treat one's own position as the truth wneh one has not yet understood the whole as one truth...

 

[CShephard53]

You would apparently have us be perfect. I've got news for you. We can't be this side of heaven. He who talks about love does a great job of calling people ignorant.


KJV Mt 5:48
48 be ye therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
MontgomeryNT Mt 5:48
48 "You then must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Darby Mt 5:48
48 Be *ye* therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
HCSB Mt 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NASB77 Mt 5:48
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
NASB95 Mt 5:48
48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

What say you? Can you reconcile this?

I've already addressed it:
In post one:
Quote:
All men [excepting Jesus] were sinners in this life, few find the strait narrow way of becoming saints, ceasing from sin, following Jesus in perfect love :-

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Perfect:
G5046
τε[FONT=&quot]́λειος
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Part of Speech: adjective
[/FONT]

 

[CShephard53]

Matthew 7:13 [KJV] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 7:13 [REB] Enter ye in at, the narrow gate; because broad and roomy is the way that leadeth unto destruction,—and, many, are they who enter thereby:

The few go by the strait narrow way, so these are the 144,000 saints sealed in this life to be saints , the first fruits of the spirit of truth , so the many go by the broad way of death and destruction in the end of this world, but clearly Jesus survived destruction [Greek 'apoleia'] in death by crucifixion, ... so we have his witness too that the many are saved after death and destruction -Rev 7:9-10, but after the few...

Of the few some do not die, and the rest are resurrected at the resurrection of the just , those justified in this life by spirit baptism

Of the many all die for sin and cannot be resurrected at the first resurrection since they would simply then die again in the end of this earth... until they triumph in baptism of fire none is ready for translation, and one cannot even begin until one has all truth of God because Satan is there with whatever temptation works to stop one loving, cause one to sin, cause one not to obey Jesus so he is not one's lord, but Satan is ...

Satn's claim is that he is the god of men [2Thess 2:4] because all men come to sin in obedience to hime.... Jesus' claim is that he did not sin and that men can thus live without sin once freed from it , and live in love instead...

That love must be perfect to be love is shown in many places, but this one is perhaps enough :-

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

A single sin is then enough to enslave one to it and require death to free one from it ... being baptised of the spirit frees one from sin too, but is only given to the few in this life , the many in the new earth in resurrection [the second, of the unjust, the unjustified]
[thus if you had watched even five minutes of the video you would have seen how entrenched we allare in sin, that almost all men already have the 'mark of the beast' in their minds and actions, that we already cannot buy or sell without having it because our money system is not fair, not just, and is bound to collapse and hurt billions of people very badly indeed]

Most people cannot be perfect in this world simply because they are not yet baptised of the spirit , so are still enslaved to sin ... it is God alone who baptises folks, so look to why He will not baptise more than the few now... the answer is not that hard to find, because the few are predestinated to be priests and kings... who will they then rule and minister to afterwards?

Ther is only the masses of sinners freed from sin by death to minister to, but that is only after they are resurrected, the second resurrection ...

Interesting. Unfortunately, your point is null.

G684
ἀπώλεια
apōleia
Thayer Definition:
1) destroying, utter destruction
1a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
2a) of money
2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Part of Speech: noun feminine

 

[CShephard53]

Why do you not stop and LOOK and see that debate DOESN'T work at all ?

That inventing a better way to the truth than God's way described in scripture is for sinners which scripture labels "foolish" ...

Love is the only way and it is lost very quickly as soon as one gets debate ... people just dig in , taking their current beliefs even more seriously and defending them , instead of both parties starting out from respect for the whole of scripture which in current context is the authority ...

As I expected, you do not like my approach in trying to see what we agree on first and then addressing what we do not from scripture .... so you revert to the adversarial approach, closing the mind to any possibility of listening to the whole of scripture if you can drag a single line kicking and screaming to defend a hopelessly outnumbered position ... not that number proves anything, just that ignoring so much and clinging to so little, just to follow sinners' and the popularity of current religion, applying your logic to everything but what you think supports your position ,which somehow escapes surveillance by the same standard ....

I thank you for the lesson in how God blinds mankind, sory you never thought my approach was better ....since it attempts to avoid adversarial debate ... you will see eventually that even claiming to have won a debate with a whole fistful of much-prized points is no substitute for winning the truth of scripture which can only emerge from seeing the whole as one truth ... you want debate, I do not , you want to prove you are right, I do not , ... you would do better to go and read the bible and pray and meditate, because you start out already disbelieving anything but what little you think you have from learning from sinners what theyw ant you to think the saints say...

Istead we could have sought the truth from scripture by co-operation, by trying to see what the other person sees... al that I see fromyou so far is only the old tired falling away predicted by Jesus for the masses .. things that have been repeated over and over until mmost sinners really believe they are in scripture , even their mums and dads believed them... well i cannot stop that process, since it is prophesied... thanks anyway, cos' you proved God is right about that ... and I am wrong as usual to think that men can rise above satan's wily deception of religion of men by simply seeing scripture as the wholeness it must be, self-consistent, unique, unambiguous... one just cannot do that without quoting all teh scripture, and one cannot thus even try to do it here without co-operation and both partners in discussion seeking to understand the other , not to treat as adversary ... not to treat one's own position as the truth wneh one has not yet understood the whole as one truth...

Avoiding the issue. You are in a debate thread in a public forum. Anyone can see that you have not done nearly an adequate job backing your own claims, or summaries, or whatever you wish to call them.

Additionally, you haven't backed any of the claims from my last post yesterday. Therefore, you will get no response. Have fun.

 

[CShephard53]

Clearly one can take this too literally and to apply to other times than when it was written [sadly we do not have the original scripture as far as I know] ... Jesus was one who was righteous at a later time...

God says others are righteous at much earlier times [and who will argue with Him?] :-

Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? [ The righteous thus walked away from destruction to tell the tale , there were not even five, but there were more than none!]

Numbers 23:10 Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!
[Jacob was righteous then ]

1 Kings 8:32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; andjustifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners inthe congregation of the righteous.

[a congregation with no-one in it? I do not think so really... ]

Psalms 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

[How can the Lord know the way of no-one?]

Psalms 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

{promises to no-one, easy to keep ? ]

Psalms 7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Is this about no-one, the wicked come to an end and there is no-one left, or do the wicked renounce their wickedness and get forgiven because they become righteous ? [Ezek 18:21]

Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Why would God judge the righteous if there were none to judge and He knew there were none to judge, just making it an easy job for Himself perhaps ?

Psalms 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

[How can sinners seak against the righteous if there are none to speak against?]

Psalms 32:11 Be glad in the LORD, and rejoice, ye righteous: and shout for joy, all ye that are upright in heart.

[How can they if there are none, has David gone crazy handing out advice to no-one?]

Psalms 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

[How does he see and hear what doesn't exist ?]

etc, etc, etc ...

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

There is hardly any scripture book [scroll] that doesn't discuss the righteous... why take one scripture as applying to every person in every age and disregard many hundreds of scriptures which you say you have read which show the conclusion you come to is false ?

You decided what to believe then looked for scripture to support it and then ignored or denied the mass of scripture that shows the mistake ...easy to do if one is in a hurry or has an axe to grind because of polarisation in debate in place of co-operative searching the whole scripture to find the real truth of God.... it is HARD because people are meant to give up on it and accept Satan's world religion , God requires it of the many and even the saints are close to giving up fighting the whole world when Jesus returns and cuts short their anguish at being attacked for telling only the truth... to all those they love, everyone...

It requires then a different approach than you rules of 'debate' , they just cause entrenchment in theories sold by Satan , and without the spirit of truth all we have to defeat the subtle wily twisting of the truth that seems so plausible , even beyond 'reasonable doubt', is the scripture, ragged and bedraggled by misuse as it is ...

Not much hope then of not being deceived without spirit baptism, but Satan even thought of that and fools many that they have spirit baptism without knowing all truth of God [John 16:13].... quite an achievement really, but men will believe what they want to believe, and are very reluctant to face the test of even matching their beliefs against every word we have from God [however mangled by men]

Go read 1 John 1:9, will you?

 

[Ormly]

I've already addressed it:
In post one:
Quote:

All men [excepting Jesus] were sinners in this life, few find the strait narrow way of becoming saints, ceasing from sin, following Jesus in perfect love :-

Since our grasp will always exceed our reach, that is no excuse for not pressing into it, is it?

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Perfect:
G5046
τε[FONT=&quot]́λειος[/FONT]
teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect
4a) consummate human integrity and virtue
4b) of men
4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature
Part of Speech: adjective

Then what reason would you suppose Paul would have to address those as "saints" and those "faithful in Christ", in Eph 1:1? Why didn't he just address them both as, sinners, saved by grace?

Distinctions needed here, young man, if you want to understand the complete gospel and not just the redemption issues...


Can you see the issue of intimacy Father wanting and the result it produces when we read John saying this:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9 (KJV)

Now what does being "born again" really mean?

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil". 1 John 3:8 (KJV)

The operative word here is "might". The Son of God, by virtue of the new birth, is manifested in us that He "might" destroy our old nature. The "might" is indicated because the whole thing is dependent upon our willingness in the self renounciation process whereby we become sons.

 

[stranger]

The Israelites go to heaven first.:

from Rev 7:3-8 : All those who are first are of tribal Israel and they are few [144,000] and sealed , the many are saved "after this" [Rev 7:9-10]

from 2 Timothy 2:19 these sealed ones are the only ones who name the true name [purpose] of Jesus Christ , thus these Hebrews are the only real christians at this time up to Jesus' return ...

They go to heaven because they are changed , translated to spirit to be able to enter the third heaven [this heaven is destroyed along with the earth, so no point in going there I guess , perhaps?]

Saints are special people separate from other believers, and are very few in number.

Well I never said they are special, you made that up... they are very ordinary people whom God chose from the beginning because theya re ordinary, stiff-necked , rebellious people, ideal for His proof that He can even persuade such idolatous or rebellious folks to become completely loving ,just by revealing all His truth to them...

They are made separate by his truth because God will divide the people by means of His truth into saints and sinners at Jesus' return , sheep and goats, those saints that follow Jesus and those sinners who follow Satan still

Tis Jesus who says they are 144,000, and that is but a few , but we also know that few find the narrow way from Matthew 7:14 and Jude poits out that even Enoch knew how few saints there would be at first :-

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

All people, or most people, regardless of whether or not they put faith in God while on this earth go to heaven, or eternal life and do not get eternally punished.

All created being come to believe in Jesus and accepot his dominion as Lord [Revelation 5:13] , do you not think that is enough to be redeemed, I would have thought that you based your own hope of redemption on the same belief and acceptance of Jesus as Lord.... anyways, if one obeys Jesus as Lord then one is loving... sin is not loving [by definition] ... one becomes a saint and for God , after trial of that faith, that is enough for redemption to spirit ...

God says that he can save all men and has the will to do so, who can prevent him, not even Satan :-

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD’S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

1 Timothy 2:4 ...Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You have to be sinless to receive salvation and/or be a saint.

To be a saint is to cease being a sinner , saints obey Jesus as Lord in his command to love

Sinners who call him lord disobey him, thus he is not their lord, but they sin in obedience toi Satan, thus Satan is their rel lord no amtter what they say.... Jesus holds back judgment on who is a saint and who still a sinner until his return, but points out thathe never actually knew any sinner, despite that they call him 'lord' ...

Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

You have to love perfectly in order to be a saint.

If one is made a saint then one is freed from past sin by grace... but if one then sins again one is back in slavery to sin , a sinner not a saint ... if one could then stop again it would be no problem, but sin is not like that, it is a slavery , an addiction, one cannot straighten waht is bent because one is bent oneself , one is blinded to even see much sin because one denied one's conscience in order to sin... one cannot remove the denial by oneself ... thus if Jesus returns and finds on slave to sin he will reject one as a sinner , for iniquity

Ecclesiastes 1:15 That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Saints thus cannot continue in sin hiding behind grace :-

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

thanks anyway for your time which is so valuable to you ...

Sorry we could not agree on the right way to tackle discussion

 

[stranger]

KJV Mt 5:48
48 be ye therefore perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Can you reconcile this?

Jesus was clearly as perfect as God as a man, why should there be any problem for the saints more than for Jesus ?

Wasn't that indeed his way of showing the way ?

 

[stranger]

Unbelievable!! What a distortion of the word of God.. Pity

Maybe you would care to be a little more forthcoming with whatever scripture you think makes this scripture unbelievable... join the discussion with some reproof from scripture of your own finding?

 

[stranger]

!John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If a saint confesses his sins then it is complete because he has been told all truth by God about himself [John 16:13]

If a sinnera ttempts to confess his sins he will failuntil he is baptised of the spirit to know them all, to cut through his denial that has let him continue to sin censoring his own conscience...

 

[Ormly]

Jesus was clearly as perfect as God as a man, why should there be any problem for the saints more than for Jesus ?

Wasn't that indeed his way of showing the way ?

Please don't think me heretical in this however, this how I see it:

Perfection is Divinity and we know Christ laid aside that to indwell the man Jesus. Jesus wasn't yet perfected as Divine-Man, purposed for Him by the Father. Though a "reality" in the Mind of God, from HisisHH eternity, there were tasks for the man Jesus to accomplish before it became an "actuality".

Jesus was God's representation of what He wanted man, from man’s actual beginning; Adam, to be; Jesus was God’s representation of normal man, here to show us the Father's Ultimate Intention for His creation …. and demonstrated by His life, throuh "Self-renunciation": the way of the cross.

In His humanity Jesus learned perfection "by the things He *suffered". When He satisfied the Holiness of His Father in the tasks and testings presented Him, He ascended to the Mount and was transfigured. That was His "Graduation day"!

His LOVE for the Father; his purposes for Him and thus for Himself brought Him back down from the mount to collect us, to redeem us by going to the cross that we might be the righteousness of Christ, to be presented to the Father in that Great Day!

We can see by this, that it is not just to redeem us that He went to the cross but, when He uttered the words: "It is Finished", He made possible, not only our salvation by His shed Blood but, by the new birth He chooses us to receive the imputation of the Father's Nature that we might accomplish our Son-ship as He did.; that by the impartation of His Holy Spirit we can now have the Character of the Father perfected in us as He did before His transfiguration.

*Was passionate after; the Fathers will