A solid example from Scripture please.

[Albion]

The whole scriptural authorization concept is interesting though. It can be applied to so many other situations that are not friendly to Protestants of varying stripes. e.g. setting up a your own national Church so you can divorce your wife and remarry. What does Jesus say about that?

He probably says you don't know your church history very well.

 

[narnia59]

Yes. That is my position.

It's an interesting one.

I think bottom line is if you are entrenched that sola-Scriptura is true, you may not find anything that meets your specific request. Most of the Christian groups who invoke saints would reject sola-Scriptura as being not Biblical so do not have your particular issue with the practice.

I would point out that I know a lot of people who are sola-Scriptura who quite often think it's okay to do things that have no specific example in the Bible. Baby dedications come to mind.

I would also point out that a great many people who are sola-Scriptura would disagree with your original premise and say it's not Biblical. They do not believe those in heaven pray for us or are aware of our particular circumstances and would reject there is Biblical evidence for that

I think the best I could give you from a Biblical perspective is that your current position contradicts what the Bible teaches us about the body of Christ. Scripture is clear there there is ONE body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13,1 Corinthians 12:20,Romans 12:4-5).

The Bible is also clear that this one body of Christ includes those on earth as well as those in heaven:

Colossians 1:17-20 "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." See also
Romans 8:38-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 ,Ephesians 1:9-10, Hebrews 11:40

Scripture also teaches us that there is no division in the one body of Christ -- 1 Corinthians 12:25.

So, I guess I would ask you by what Biblical grounds do you divide the body of Christ into two parts -- those on earth that you can ask for prayers, and those in heaven you can't?

 

[narnia59]

You addressed your question to "Thatgirloncfforum," but the answer is quite uncomplicated. The Bible gives us no authorization for doing what you are asking about. It DOES, however, validate those other beliefs or practices you named.

I can give you any number of believers of sola-Scriptura who would disagree with you that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth and pray for us. There are certainly no explicit statements those things are correct.

 

[Albion]

It's an interesting one.

I think bottom line is if you are entrenched that sola-Scriptura is true, you may not find anything that meets your specific request. Most of the Christian groups who invoke saints would reject sola-Scriptura as being not Biblical so do not have your particular issue with the practice.

That's quite true. Once we push aside divine revelation, the word of God, and substitute for it some manmade standard by which dogma is to be judged, it's "anything goes."

I would point out that I know a lot of people who are sola-Scriptura who quite often think it's okay to do things that have no specific example in the Bible. Baby dedications come to mind.

Wait a minute. The issue is the reliability and authority of Scripture, the word of God. It is not supposed that everyone who reads the Bible will get the meaning of all the contents correct.

But that fact is also not a justification for setting Scripture aside in favor of some human customs, theories, legends, or the like.

Also, those churches that go by Tradition instead of Scripture Alone are even more divided among themselves that the churches that adhere to Sola Scriptura!
That fact alone demolishes your theory about Sola Scriptura.

I think the best I could give you from a Biblical perspective is that your current position contradicts what the Bible teaches us about the body of Christ. Scripture is clear there there is ONE body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13,1 Corinthians 12:20,Romans 12:4-5).

The Bible is also clear that this one body of Christ includes those on earth as well as those in heaven:

Sure, but that's not the question before us. The question concerned a Scriptural justification for praying to those who have died in the flesh and gone on to the spirit world.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Sure, but that's not the question before us. The question concerned a Scriptural justification for praying to those who have died in the flesh and gone on to the spirit world.

Did not the OP ask for an example? A justification and an example are clearly two different things. A just war can be waged with guns based on Scripture, but there is no example of it in Scripture (of gunfighting). There is no example concerning invocation in my opinion currently, but a justification is obviously there. The question before us is:

"Is there an example from Scripture of a person on earth invoking a person in heaven?"

But perhaps people have different precise definitions of "example," which may have caused confusion in the thread.

 

[Albion]

Did not the OP ask for an example?

No. The following is what was written there--

Is there an example from Scripture of a person on earth invoking a person in heaven?

and, as has been explained repeatedly, there IS NO example from Scripture of praying to the spirits being proper, recommended, or taught.

 

[Abaxvahl]

No. The following is what was written there--



and, as has been explained repeatedly, there IS NO example from Scripture of praying to the spirits being proper, recommended, or taught.

Repeating part of what I just said, peak. Baruch HaShem.

 

[Albion]

Repeating part of what I just said, peak. Baruch HaShem.

And as I just pointed out, there is nothing in Scripture that authorizes us to pray to the saints.

Yes, there are all sorts of uninspired writings in the past 2000 and more years that advocate doing such a thing--such, for instance, as what you referred me to--but the question nevertheless was about there being any in Holy Scripture.

 

[Abaxvahl]

--such, for instance, as what you referred me to--

You must be in confusion for I did not refer you to anything here. There is no example, I merely distinguished between example and justification, as English words alone, for you had mentioned justification while speaking English.

But perhaps you are reminiscing on past events.

 

[narnia59]

That's quite true. Once we push aside divine revelation, the word of God, and substitute for it some manmade standard by which dogma is to be judged, it's "anything goes."

Strawman. Nobody is pushing aside Scripture. I simply believe Scripture when it tells me that the pillar and ground of the truth is the Church (1 Timothy 3:15) and that an effort to prove a doctrine of sola-Scripture from the Bible is fruitless.

Wait a minute. The issue is the reliability and authority of Scripture, the word of God. It is not supposed that everyone who reads the Bible will get the meaning of all the contents correct.

One of the problems with sola-Scripture is that you can't suppose that anyone who reads the Bible will interpret it correctly. RC Sproul explains that very well:

“For the classic Protestant, though the individual believer has the right to the private interpretation of Scripture, he is capable of misinterpreting the Bible. But while he has the ability to misinterpret Scripture, he does not have the right to do it. That is, with the right of private interpretation comes the responsibility of making an accurate interpretation. We never have the right to distort the teaching of Scripture. Both sides agree that the individual is fallible when seeking to understand Scripture, but historic Protestantism limits the scope of infallibility to the Scriptures themselves. Church tradition and church creeds can err. Individual interpreters of Scripture can err. It is the Scriptures alone that are without error.”

Sola Scriptura (Resources) | Effectual Grace

What Protestatism is left with is an infallible text with no way to guarantee any interpretation is accurate. And think that Christ set it up that way.

But that fact is also not a justification for setting Scripture aside in favor of some human customs, theories, legends, or the like.

Also, those churches that go by Tradition instead of Scripture Alone are even more divided among themselves that the churches that adhere to Sola Scriptura!
That fact alone demolishes your theory about Sola Scriptura.

Sacred Tradition is Biblical and not human customs.

And no, these churches are not even more divided than Protestantism. Not even close.

But if you want to look to the Bible for that answer, I suggest you look at who got left with the keys to the kingdom.

Sure, but that's not the question before us. The question concerned a Scriptural justification for praying to those who have died in the flesh and gone on to the spirit world.

So, what is your Biblical basis for dividing the body of Christ into two different parts? That would be a start.

Those who understand we can ask the saints in heaven to pray for us actually believe when Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ has abolished death (2 Timothy 1:10). It appears that others do not.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

It's an interesting one.

I think bottom line is if you are entrenched that sola-Scriptura is true, you may not find anything that meets your specific request. Most of the Christian groups who invoke saints would reject sola-Scriptura as being not Biblical so do not have your particular issue with the practice.

I would point out that I know a lot of people who are sola-Scriptura who quite often think it's okay to do things that have no specific example in the Bible. Baby dedications come to mind.

I would also point out that a great many people who are sola-Scriptura would disagree with your original premise and say it's not Biblical. They do not believe those in heaven pray for us or are aware of our particular circumstances and would reject there is Biblical evidence for that

I've never understood that myself. The dead talk all the time in Scripture about their former lives or what is happening on the earth. One of my favorite passages is when God comforts Rachel who mourns over the exiles as they passed by her tomb.

I think the best I could give you from a Biblical perspective is that your current position contradicts what the Bible teaches us about the body of Christ. Scripture is clear there there is ONE body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13,1 Corinthians 12:20,Romans 12:4-5).

There is one body, but forbidding intercourse with the holy dead or with angels is something that is prohibited in Scripture. Unless, there is a radical shift which takes place in the New Testament that undoes this prohibition, for example the defeat of Sheol.

The Bible is also clear that this one body of Christ includes those on earth as well as those in heaven:

Colossians 1:17-20 "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent. For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." See also
Romans 8:38-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 ,Ephesians 1:9-10, Hebrews 11:40

Scripture also teaches us that there is no division in the one body of Christ -- 1 Corinthians 12:25.

So, I guess I would ask you by what Biblical grounds do you divide the body of Christ into two parts -- those on earth that you can ask for prayers, and those in heaven you can't?

I don't divide, I only go as far as Scripture goes, unless I have a reason to go beyond.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Guys, I asked for a simple verse. One verse. It there is a good reason why that verse isn't forthcoming, like the dead were still dead prior to the resurrection of Christ, I'll consider that.
But trailing off into logical arguments, Church authority, ect. is not what I asked for. If you simply do not have a verse --fine. But let me judge for myself what step to take next please. Remember, there are at least 2, if not 3 'true' Churches out there.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Yes and not really understanding the nature of the Church as a theotropic entity.

I don't wish to discuss the Church rn. It's beside the point as Scripture and the Church go together.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Guys, I asked for a simple verse. One verse. It there is a good reason why that verse isn't forthcoming, like the dead were still dead prior to the resurrection of Christ, I'll consider that.

The reason the verse never comes is that it does not exist, there is no example. People deduce things from what is in Scripture, but a justification/deduction, even if correct, is not an example.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Thank you. Ok. If we are all agreed, let's talk about why now.
Is it bc the dead were still dead or is there something else at play?

The reason the verse never comes is that it does not exist, there is no example. People deduce things from what is in Scripture, but a justification/deduction, even if correct, is not an example.

 

[narnia59]

I've never understood that myself. The dead talk all the time in Scripture about their former lives or what is happening on the earth. One of my favorite passages is when God comforts Rachel who mourns over the exiles as they passed by her tomb.

I love that passage as well. She successfully intercedes for them with her tears and obtains a promise from God that they will be restored to their land.

While it's not in Scripture did you know that in the oral tradition of the Jews, both Moses and I think Elijah had gone before God to intercede for them? They were not successful. It was Rachel's tears that moved God's heart.

There is one body, but forbidding intercourse with the holy dead or with angels is something that is prohibited in Scripture. Unless, there is a radical shift which takes place in the New Testament that undoes this prohibition, for example the defeat of Sheol.

We are forbidded to "consult" the dead. The Catholic Church is very clear on that. Any attempt to try to gain knowledge is forbidden.

But we are not forbidden to come into contact with them. In the New Covenant, we actually do that when we pray whether we realize it or not. That is why the book of Hebrews tell us that we have come to the New Jerusalem, and along with Christ to "the spirits of just men made perfect" and the spirits of the angels (Hebrews 12:22-24).

Hebrews also tells of us those Old Testament saints that "apart from us" they are not made perfect (Hebrews 11:40). I find that to be a most interesting passage. It doesn't say apart from Christ they are not made perfect, but apart from "us," the body of Christ. Another indication of how they are united to us.

The radical shift in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ has conquered death and has united heaven and earth in himself.

I don't divide, I only go as far as Scripture goes, unless I have a reason to go beyond.

But you do divide the body of Christ in your practice. You profess it's okay to ask those on earth to pray for you but not the saints in heaven. Scripture says there is no division in the body.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The reason the verse never comes is that it does not exist, there is no example. People deduce things from what is in Scripture, but a justification/deduction, even if correct, is not an example.

Yeah that is one point I'm trying to get to. Things are not as much about scripture as philosophies about scripture that are in people's heads as well as other kinds of meta beliefs about Epistemology etc.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I love that passage as well. She successfully intercedes for them with her tears and obtains a promise from God that they will be restored to their land.

Please see my latest post. Am I divided from my brothers and sisters in Kenya bc I cannot through the Spirit talk to them?

While it's not in Scripture did you know that in the oral tradition of the Jews, both Moses and I think Elijah had gone before God to intercede for them? They were not successful. It was Rachel's tears that moved God's heart.

Invocation and intercession are not the same thing.

We are forbidded to "consult" the dead. The Catholic Church is very clear on that. Any attempt to try to gain knowledge is forbidden.

But we are not forbidden to come into contact with them. In the New Covenant, we actually do that when we pray whether we realize it or not. That is why the book of Hebrews tell us that we have come to the New Jerusalem, and along with Christ to "the spirits of just men made perfect" and the spirits of the angels (Hebrews 12:22-24).

that is a distinction I have never heard before.

Hebrews also tells of us those Old Testament saints that "apart from us" they are not made perfect (Hebrews 11:40). I find that to be a most interesting passage. It doesn't say apart from Christ they are not made perfect, but apart from "us," the body of Christ. Another indication of how they are united to us.

The radical shift in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ has conquered death and has united heaven and earth in himself.

Ok. So how were the dead in the OT able to intercede?

But you do divide the body of Christ in your practice. You profess it's okay to ask those on earth to pray for you but not the saints in heaven. Scripture says there is no division in the body.

[/QUOTE]

 

[narnia59]

Guys, I asked for a simple verse. One verse. It there is a good reason why that verse isn't forthcoming, like the dead were still dead prior to the resurrection of Christ, I'll consider that.
But trailing off into logical arguments, Church authority, ect. is not what I asked for. If you simply do not have a verse --fine. But let me judge for myself what step to take next please. Remember, there are at least 2, if not 3 'true' Churches out there.

You said in your previous post whether there is a radical shift in the New Testament. The answer to that question is yes. The resurrection of Christ changes EVERYTHING. Now those who have died in the flesh are "in Christ" just as we are.

I did not mean to derail your thread with a discussion about sola-Scriptura. But you need to undertstand that it impacts everything.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Scripture is pretty uncomplicated actually. The problem many struggle with is that they don't take it at face value.

Yeah that is one point I'm trying to get to. Things are not as much about scripture as philosophies about scripture that are in people's heads as well as other kinds of meta beliefs about Epistemology etc.