A solid example from Scripture please.

[Thatgirloncfforums]

You mean like requesting stuff of people who are in the bosom of Abraham, sleeping in Sheol/ the Grave?

Right.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Right.

This is one of those Christian beliefs that I believe Protestants should continue to see as a "pagan corruption" of Judaism if they are stubborn and want to remain in their Confirmation bias, but mind you that sort of outlook also applies to other cherished Christian beliefs, especially the virgin birth of Christ.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I am confused.

This is one of those Christian beliefs that I believe Protestants should continue to see as a "pagan corruption" of Judaism if they are stubborn and want to remain in their Confirmation bias, but mind you that sort of outlook also applies to other cherished Christian beliefs, especially the virgin birth of Christ.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I am confused.

In Judaism there is something called the Mourner's prayer. This however is more like a purgatory thing, rather than what we are talking about. Moreover non-Messianic Jews deny its significance, and I'm sure many Messianic ones would as well seeing how many are influenced heavily from Protestant theology.

Mourner’s Kaddish – Star Of David Memorial Chapels.


But my previous comment was based on suspecting that maybe you are just trying to be difficult. On the internet people like to play little games, where they want you to jump through fiery hoops for their amusement and so on.

But if you got some kind of strong hunch, or opinion on this matter I just got to point to certain big meta concepts of the Bible such as Doctrinal Development, progressive revelation etc. We have Revelation / Mysterion in the Judeo Christian tradition. This means a literal uncovering of something that is hidden. This very concept contradicts your assumptions that something is always going to be seen clearly in some earlier precedent example.


IF you study the history of Doctrinal development in Judaism there are some big developments that occur. Like many liberals scholars believe (and for good reason) that Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism during the Captivity because Judaism does take a sharp turn in that doctrinal direction as far as talking about the Afterlife, Judgement of the living of the dead, resurrection of the dead, angels vs. demons, good vs. evil themes, than it was in it's earlier days, but that is a topic for another thread....

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

But my previous comment was based on suspecting that maybe you are just trying to be difficult. On the internet people like to play little games, where they want you to jump through fiery hoops for their amusement and so on.

That's not nice. I don't see how I deserve such an assumption just for asking questions.

PS. I do believe in doctrinal development, but not all developments are legit.

 

[Albion]

I understand, but this is flowing out of logic. If the logic is so apparent, why doesn't Israel's religion lead to the same conclusions?

Congratulations on you keeping the focus on the issue you asked about. That was not about logical justifications or what some church leader said. None of that, but just Scripture.

Keeping the focus there, The Apocrypha was cited as answering your question, but of course, those books are not Holy Scripture. Rather than argue that point with people who think they ought to be considered inspired, it's also right, as you know, that the key verse among them--from 2 Maccabees**--doesn't actually provide evidence that it's correct of humans to invoke spirits.

That passage states that the author of the book was reporting on the doings of another person and about the practice of sacrificing or praying for the dead, that they be loosed from their sins. We note that there is no indication that this was considered right or effective to do. Also, the object of the petitioning was God; it was not that prayer or sacrifice was being directed to the spirits themselves, nor was there any request of them for intercession.

**43 "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Thank you. Yes, even if we include Maccabees, there is still no smoking gun. The problem with basing doctrine on logic is that I can logically make a case for why we shouldn't invoke the saints. Logic, either way isn't informative.

Now as my Coptic friend above indicated, Sheol is a very good reason why we might not see an invocation in the OT. But, many of the verses that can be employed to back up intercession of the saints are from the OT. Also, it doesn't quite seem to take into account the funeral pillars that were erected by Israel for their dead.

This issue could be a simple matter of not understanding the cultural context of the Testaments and thus interpreting even familiar verses wrongly.

Congratulations on you keeping the focus on the issue you asked about. That was not about logical justifications or what some church leader said. None of that, but just Scripture.

Keeping the focus there, The Apocrypha was cited as answering your question, but of course, those books are not Holy Scripture. Rather than argue that point with people who think they ought to be considered inspired, it's also right, as you know, that the key verse among them--from 2 Maccabees**--doesn't actually provide evidence that it's correct of humans to invoke spirits.

That passage states that the author of the book witnessed some Jews who prayed for the dead, that they be loosed from their sins. We note that there is no indication that this was considered right or effective. Also, the people being observed prayed to God concerning their deceased comrades; they did not pray to those people in the afterlife or ask them to intercede in any way.

**
43 "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

 

[Pavel Mosko]

This issue could be a simple matter of not understanding the cultural context of the Testaments and thus interpreting even familiar verses wrongly.

Yes and not really understanding the nature of the Church as a theotropic entity.

 

[Albion]

In Judaism there is something called the Mourner's prayer. This however is more like a purgatory thing, rather than what we are talking about. Moreover non-Messianic Jews deny its significance, and I'm sure many Messianic ones would as well seeing how many are influenced heavily from Protestant theology.

Mourner’s Kaddish – Star Of David Memorial Chapels.


But my previous comment was based on suspecting that maybe you are just trying to be difficult. On the internet people like to play little games, where they want you to jump through fiery hoops for their amusement and so on.

But if you got some kind of strong hunch, or opinion on this matter I just got to point to certain big meta concepts of the Bible such as Doctrinal Development, progressive revelation etc. We have Revelation / Mysterion in the Judeo Christian tradition. This means a literal uncovering of something that is hidden. This very concept contradicts your assumptions that something is always going to be seen clearly in some earlier precedent example.


IF you study the history of Doctrinal development in Judaism there are some big developments that occur. Like many liberals scholars believe (and for good reason) that Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism during the Captivity because Judaism does take a sharp turn in that doctrinal direction as far as talking about the Afterlife, Judgement of the living of the dead, resurrection of the dead, angels vs. demons, good vs. evil themes, than it was in it's earlier days, but that is a topic for another thread....

Yes, we know that the Catholic churches "cover" for the changes in doctrine that they make by saying, among other things, "there's a development of doctrine," meaning that doctrinal teachings have indeed been changed.

Still in all, how does that answer the question which asked if and where there is in Scripture a justification for the living to pray TO those who have passed into the afterlife and, in some cases, request their intercession?

There appears to be no such Bible verse, and that's why we are seeing a return to the mention of such things as Tradition, the "development of doctrine" and "but Protestants..." in the discussion.

 

[narnia59]

Is there an example from Scripture of a person on earth invoking a person in heaven?

I have tried to research this question online, even purchases a few books. I have read some of the threads here. But, the essential question is never answered. Where in 6000 yrs of recorded Biblical history (via the Scriptures) is invocation not intercession addressed.

Granted are:
1) That those in heaven pray for those on earth.
2) That those in heaven are alive
3) That those in heaven are aware of our particulars.

Thanks.

So you believe it's Biblical to believe those in heaven pray for us, are aware of our situations needing prayer, but we can't ask them to pray for us? Just trying to understand your position.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, we know that the Catholic churches "cover" for the changes in doctrine that they make by saying, among other things, "there's a development of doctrine," meaning that doctrinal teachings have indeed been changed.

Still in all, how does that answer the question which asked if and where there is in Scripture a justification for the living to pray TO those who have passed into the afterlife and, in some cases, request their intercession?

There appears to be no such Bible verse, and that's why we are seeing a return to the mention of such things as Holy Tradition, the "development of doctrine" and "but Protestants..." in the discussion.

uh if your paying attention I also mentioned the nature of mysterion/ revelation that is actually relevant to what she was asking in her later questions.

 

[Albion]

So you believe it's Biblical to believe those in heaven pray for us, are aware of our situations needing prayer, but we can't ask them to pray for us? Just trying to understand your position.

You addressed your question to "Thatgirloncfforum," but the answer is quite uncomplicated. The Bible gives us no authorization for doing what you are asking about. It DOES, however, validate those other beliefs or practices you named.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The whole scriptural authorization concept is interesting though. It can be applied to so many other situations that are not friendly to Protestants of varying stripes. e.g. setting up a your own national Church so you can divorce your wife and remarry. What does Jesus say about that?

 

[Albion]

uh if your paying attention I also mentioned the nature of mysterion/ revelation that is actually relevant to what she was asking in her later questions.

Yeh, I caught it and commented on it by referring to Tradition, AKA Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition, which is the mythology used by some churches in order to circumvent Scripture.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Is there an example from Scripture of a person on earth invoking a person in heaven?

I have tried to research this question online, even purchases a few books. I have read some of the threads here. But, the essential question is never answered. Where in 6000 yrs of recorded Biblical history (via the Scriptures) is invocation not intercession addressed.

Granted are:
1) That those in heaven pray for those on earth.
2) That those in heaven are alive
3) That those in heaven are aware of our particulars.

Thanks.

There is none as far as I know. It is a solid deduction in my opinion from what Scripture says concerning Christ (so I would say it is in Scripture, for anything implied is in it to me), but otherwise is nonexistent in it. But also it is not forbidden by it.

When the distinction between praying for the dead (in Scripture), the dead praying for us (also in it obviously), and us praying to them is recognized all of the verses people cite fail. The activity of angels in offering our prayers to God (also in Scripture obviously) is also not the same.

I've gone over many compilations and verses with these things in mind and if there is a verse it has escaped everyone I've ever heard discuss the issue for centuries. Perhaps it is in the Psalter (as many doctrines concerning the Church are) but I didn't see it when I prayed it, not yet. I'll go through it again and tell you if I see it there.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yeh, I caught it and commented on it by referring to Tradition, AKA Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition, which is the mythology used by some churches in order to circumvent Scripture.

It's not mythology it actually is a lexiconal concept mentioned in the NT if you read Paradosis and what it entails. We would not even have the Scriptures without a Paradosis.


G3862 - paradosis - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

So you believe it's Biblical to believe those in heaven pray for us, are aware of our situations needing prayer, but we can't ask them to pray for us? Just trying to understand your position.

Yes. That is my position.

 

[Albion]

Okay. I got interested in the topic as it was presented here, but I have no particular interest in being lectured about Oriental Orthodoxy, nor does that do a thing to answer the question of the thread.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

There is none as far as I know. It is a solid deduction in my opinion from what Scripture says concerning Christ (so I would say it is in Scripture, for anything implied is in it to me), but otherwise is nonexistent in it. But also it is not forbidden by it.

When the distinction between praying for the dead (in Scripture), the dead praying for us (also in it obviously), and us praying to them is recognized all of the verses people cite fail. The activity of angels in offering our prayers to God (also in Scripture obviously) is also not the same.

I've gone over many compilations and verses with these things in mind and if there is a verse it has escaped everyone I've ever heard discuss the issue for centuries. Perhaps it is in the Psalter (as many doctrines concerning the Church are) but I didn't see it when I prayed it, not yet. I'll go through it again and tell you if I see it there.

I hope you stick around and elaborate on that stuff.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Okay. I got interested in the topic as it was presented here, but I have no particular interest in being lectured about the Oriental Orthodoxy, nor does that do a thing to answer the question of the thread.

Hey your brought it up...