A solid example from Scripture please.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 11, 2021

Major1 said:
Could be. I am not advocating either way my friend.

I do know from Isiah 63:16 that both Abraham and Jacob (Israel), did not know what was going on upon the earth.

"But You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is Your name".

Were the Israelites trying to invoke Abraham or Jacob?

In the account of the rich man and Lazarus, we are told that the rich man could see Lazarus. However we are not told that Lazarus could see the rich man. All this says is that unbelievers could see the believers, not the other way around. In addition, it says nothing about seeing those on earth or knowing what they are doing.

Notice though, that Abraham knew about Moses and the Prophets (ie people who came after Abraham). He also knew about Lazarus's life and Dives' too, enough to contrast the two.

The witnesses, that are referred to in the Book of Hebrews, are examples of what we should be with our faith. Their testimony to their generation should be an example to every generation. There is no thought whatsoever in this passage of them knowing what is presently occurring on earth.

It's a cloud that surrounds the Christian athlete. The image that comes to mind is of the glory cloud in the OT and of the crowd which surrounds the arena in a stadium. A type of crowd which would spur athletes on by their cheers.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 11, 2021

Major1 said:
My dear friend, Don’t be fooled, the Book of Enoch is occult material, written by gnostics that will lead you into the senseless mysticism of pagan religion. Keep in mind the philosophies of the Gnostics laid the groundwork for what today is termed Luciferianism.

In the book of Enoch, 40:9-10 it falsely describes the angel, "Phanuel" at work fighting evil in his role offering hope to people who repent of their sins and inherit eternal life
…9…”seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those….”.

Now would you please post the Bible Scriptures where we can validate the Angels of "Phanuel" and :Raphael"?????

Where in the Bible is any angel being or anything given the job of being the stand in between God and eveil except Jesus?

Stand in? I understand Phanuel's and Raphael's role to be that of guardian or prince. There is a hierarchy among the angels and in the OT, angels such as Michael guarded nations and people.

Where in the Bible is there any charge given to an angel -"who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life".

What's wrong with assigning an angel to oversee the repentance of God's people? We know that our personal angels fight evil on our behalf.

Those questions should given any Christian pause of whether or not the book those words are found in is acceptable.

Not really. It's just the typical job description.

prodromos · Nov 12, 2021

Major1 said:
Could be. I am not advocating either way my friend.

You have a strange way of not advocating, and I am not your friend.

I do know from Isiah 63:16 that both Abraham and Jacob (Israel), did not know what was going on upon the earth.

You don't know that at all. The passage you quoted is Abraham and Jacob not recognising the Israelites as their descendants because they have not been following God's commandments. Contrast your interpretation with how cognisant Abraham is of the lives of the rich man and Lazarus.

In the account of the rich man and Lazarus, we are told that the rich man could see Lazarus. However we are not told that Lazarus could see the rich man. All this says is that unbelievers could see the believers, not the other way around. In addition, it says nothing about seeing those on earth or knowing what they are doing.

You focus on Lazarus and completely ignore the fact that Abraham could see and hear the rich man plus he knew all about both their lives.

The witnesses, that are referred to in the Book of Hebrews, are examples of what we should be with our faith. Their testimony to their generation should be an example to every generation. There is no thought whatsoever in this passage of them knowing what is presently occurring on earth.

Why are you addressing that to me? I've never mentioned Hebrews.

narnia59 · Nov 12, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Notice though, that Abraham knew about Moses and the Prophets (ie people who came after Abraham). He also knew about Lazarus's life and Dives' too, enough to contrast the two.

I had never thought about the fact that Abraham was aware and knew about Moses and the prophets, who all lived after he died. Very good point.

narnia59 · Nov 12, 2021

Major1 said:
The witnesses, that are referred to in the Book of Hebrews, are examples of what we should be with our faith. Their testimony to their generation should be an example to every generation. There is no thought whatsoever in this passage of them knowing what is presently occurring on earth.

How can they "surround" us without knowing about us?

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 12, 2021

Major1 said:
and you seem to ignore all the Scriptures that say the dead know nothing. How does one reconcile those differances?

Left alone, every man entertains his own ideas about it; what it's like... what happens next. We as humans always tend to fill in the blanks with what we want to believe.

I honestly hope that you are right. But do you really want to know want is going on here on the earth when you will be spending time with Jesus in heaven. ?????

Isaiah 65:17 says in heaven ....
"the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ......
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing."

Please consider that The inspired writers of the Bible call death "sleeping"... which would be, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, an "unconscious, dreamless, know-nothing dormancy."

Click to expand...

Ecclesiastes is referring to physical death in contrast to life lived 'under the sun'. I don't see 'death' here as saying anything about the spirit in Sheol. We know from other passages that those in Sheol are conscious. Remember when Lucifer was cast down and those in Sheol asked: Is this the one who caused the nations to tremble?

And contrary to the popular beliefs of the religions of today that reject what the Bible says about death; the Bible points to a future time of "Judgment"... when Jesus returns to earth with the Kingdom of God, the [unconscious] dead will resurrect from the grave [live again], regain consciousness, and receive their reward according to the works they've done in their lives.

"But man dieth... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave... until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!" (Job 14:10-13)

Click to expand...

Scripture says that Jesus descended into the lower parts. Why do you think that he did that?

"...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth... Lazarus is dead." (John 11:11-14)

Click to expand...

Lazarus as a type of the general resurrection, heard the voice of Christ. How do you think that the dead hear?

"...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment..." (Heb.9:27).

Revelation 20:11-15 describes the Judgment of the dead at their "set time" [following Jesus' thousand year rule on earth, to which Job alludes, above] to regain consciousness and receive their rewards.

"...as in Adam all die... in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order [in his own set time]: Christ the Firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor.15:22-23)

The Bible says that until Jesus returns... the dead remain "asleep" and "unconscious" [knowing nothing] in the grave [Eccle.9:10]... utterly unaware of the passing of time.

Click to expand...

See above.

To those whom God is calling... that Divinely revealed Wisdom and Knowledge in the Bible is a comfort to know that people aren't "burning forever in hell"... knowing, feeling, thinking, worrying, tormented and distressed.

That's why the Bible says "the dead know nothing." God is revealing His Truth to His "servants" -- who "believe" what He tells them. That they may know the error of the beliefs of other religions regarding death.

"...to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the Words of this prophecy, and keep[believe, hold fast, preserve] those things which are written therein..." (Rev.1:3).

The Bible is for those who "believe" what it says about the dead, the Judgment, and many other things... that they might "Know the Truth" about it.

I realize that this is not what most want to hear and all are welcome to reject everything I posted from the Word of God and you are welcome to continue to believe want you want to believe.

Click to expand...

Major1 · Nov 12, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Ecclesiastes is referring to physical death in contrast to life lived 'under the sun'. I don't see 'death' here as saying anything about the spirit in Sheol. We know from other passages that those in Sheol are conscious. Remember when Lucifer was cast down and those in Sheol asked: Is this the one who caused the nations to tremble?

Scripture says that Jesus descended into the lower parts. Why do you think that he did that?

Lazarus as a type of the general resurrection, heard the voice of Christ. How do you think that the dead hear?

See above.

Jesus descended into Paradise to set the Saints free and take them to heaven when He asended.

The First Resurrection is in several phases and Jesus was the 1st fruits, and Lazarus as well.

Major1 · Nov 12, 2021

narnia59 said:
How can they "surround" us without knowing about us?

Good question.

How does that remove the Scriptures from Eccl. and Psalms???

Major1 · Nov 12, 2021

prodromos said:
You have a strange way of not advocating, and I am not your friend.

You don't know that at all. The passage you quoted is Abraham and Jacob not recognising the Israelites as their descendants because they have not been following God's commandments. Contrast your interpretation with how cognisant Abraham is of the lives of the rich man and Lazarus.

You focus on Lazarus and completely ignore the fact that Abraham could see and hear the rich man plus he knew all about both their lives.

Why are you addressing that to me? I've never mentioned Hebrews.

Pardon me. I though all Christians were friends in Christ.

I will ignore you from now on and I hope that you will do the same for me.

Good day!

Major1 · Nov 12, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Stand in? I understand Phanuel's and Raphael's role to be that of guardian or prince. There is a hierarchy among the angels and in the OT, angels such as Michael guarded nations and people.

What's wrong with assigning an angel to oversee the repentance of God's people? We know that our personal angels fight evil on our behalf.

Not really. It's just the typical job description.

You have missed the whole point. The names PHANUEL and RAPHAEL are NOT found in the Bible anywhere at all.

It would be the same as if I wrote on this thread right now that...the angels FRED and ETHEL are in charge of the salvation of men.

Where do we validate FRED and ETHEL???? In MY mind and I am a sinner!

The same thing applies to the book of Enoch!!!!

Major1 · Nov 12, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Were the Israelites trying to invoke Abraham or Jacob?

Notice though, that Abraham knew about Moses and the Prophets (ie people who came after Abraham). He also knew about Lazarus's life and Dives' too, enough to contrast the two.

It's a cloud that surrounds the Christian athlete. The image that comes to mind is of the glory cloud in the OT and of the crowd which surrounds the arena in a stadium. A type of crowd which would spur athletes on by their cheers.

It does not matter what they were trying to invoke!

All that matters IS THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW!

Major1 · Nov 12, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I know Raphael is in Tobit. I'm not sure where Phanuel is mentioned. Does it matter what the names of the 7 archangels are?

There is NOT 7 Arch angels in the Bible!!!!

There is not 6 or 6 or 4.

In the Bible, the Word of God, there is only ONE named Arch Angel!!!!!

narnia59 · Nov 12, 2021

Major1 said:
Good question.

How does that remove the Scriptures from Eccl. and Psalms???

How do those passages remove all the ones I put in this post?

A solid example from Scripture please.

Ecclesiastes 9 is teaching us to pay attention to how we live our lives here and now because the same fate will come to us all -- death. What I'm certain is that it's not referring to the life that those who have died in Christ now have in heaven, or the afterlife at all. Do you really believe that in the afterlife one fate comes to all, both the good and evil (verse 2)? And that those who have died in Christ have no hope (verse 4)? Do you really believe that those who have died in Christ have no more reward and their memory is lost and they know nothing (not just what's happening on earth, but literally nothing - verse 5)? The author is using some very poetic language to teach us to pay attention to how we are living in the here and now because death will come to us all. He is not teaching us about life after death in Christ, and that should be pretty clear.

If you posted one from Psalms I must have missed it.

prodromos · Nov 12, 2021

Major1 said:
Pardon me. I though all Christians were friends in Christ.

If you wish to call someone friend then your fruit must be evidence of that, otherwise you are simply a hypocrite.

I will ignore you from now on and I hope that you will do the same for me.

I would rather you answered my points if you are able. If you were truly my friend you would make the effort.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 12, 2021

Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 8:2 - New International Version

Major1 said:
There is NOT 7 Arch angels in the Bible!!!!

There is not 6 or 6 or 4.

In the Bible, the Word of God, there is only ONE named Arch Angel!!!!!

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 12, 2021

The context seems to suggest that this is a Covenantal issue (Although, the Israelites were acting like children of Satan, rather than children of the Patriarchs whom they severed themselves from by their disobedience ('Do not say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father''), they nevertheless trusted in God as Father because God swore, not by the Patriarchs (although they are invoked by God), but by himself, who is from everlasting, therefore the Covenant is from everlasting .

I asked you if the Israelites were trying to invoke the Patriarchs because it would provide more substance to your argument. That is to say:
Fathers Abraham and Jacob, hear us!(silence) Yahweh, hear us!
(God hears)
Israelites conclude: Though Abraham does not know us or Jacob acknowledge us...

Major1 said:
It does not matter what they were trying to invoke!

All that matters IS THAT THEY DID NOT KNOW!

BNR32FAN · Nov 12, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Is there an example from Scripture of a person on earth invoking a person in heaven?

I have tried to research this question online, even purchases a few books. I have read some of the threads here. But, the essential question is never answered. Where in 6000 yrs of recorded Biblical history (via the Scriptures) is invocation not intercession addressed.

Granted are:
1) That those in heaven pray for those on earth.
2) That those in heaven are alive
3) That those in heaven are aware of our particulars.

Thanks.

Necromancy is forbidden throughout the Bible.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 12, 2021

You're confusing names with the substance of being. If someone wishes to call the angels in charge of salvation Fred and Ethel, it's not a sin. I know that some people name their guardian angels. And we know that Yeshua or Joshua, not Jesus is Christ's proper name. But whether one calls our Lord, Joshua or Jesus, the same person is being meant.
Tobit is a book in the EO, RC and OO canons btw.

Major1 said:
You have missed the whole point. The names PHANUEL and RAPHAEL are NOT found in the Bible anywhere at all.

It would be the same as if I wrote on this thread right now that...the angels FRED and ETHEL are in charge of the salvation of men.

Where do we validate FRED and ETHEL???? In MY mind and I am a sinner!

The same thing applies to the book of Enoch!!!!

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 12, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Necromancy is forbidden throughout the Bible.

No one is shaking bones, reading tea leaves or getting high off of vapours. In other words, we are not mediums employing the power of demons.

I talk to all the saints, living and dead. It doesn't matter whether someone is halfway across the world or in heaven. Christ's mediatorship is universal.

BNR32FAN · Nov 12, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
No one is shaking bones, reading tea leaves or getting high off of vapours. In other words, we are not mediums employing the power of demons.

I talk to all the saints, living and dead. It doesn't matter whether someone is halfway across the world or in heaven. Christ's mediatorship is universal.

No, you misunderstood me sister. My point was that necromancy is scriptural evidence of people invoking the dead, it wasn’t that prayers to the Saints is necromancy. That wasn’t my intention at all.

A solid example from Scripture please.

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