A solid example from Scripture please.

[narnia59]

Abraham knew about Moses and the Prophets and the rich man's life. Rachel wept over the Babylonian captives. The host in Revelation sees the fall of Babylon. Elijah and Moses talks to Jesus about his crucifixion. The angels are aware and we are told that we will be like them. Hebrews describes those in heaven as a great cloud of witnesses and says that when we approach God, we approach them too. Ect.

The book of Hebrews actually say they "surround" us. Kind of hard to "surround" somebody you're not aware of. (Hebrews 12:1) There's another passage right before this one that is often overlooked in speaking of the OT saints -- it says that "apart from us" they should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40). They are united to us in Christ.

And you're right, it also says that when we approach God, we approach them too (Hebrews 12:22-24).

Rachel is aware that her children are being exiled and successfully intercedes for them (Jeremiah 31:15-17). The practice of praying at Rachel's tomb has a long standing tradition among the Jewish people going back to the time of her son Joseph. Interestingly enough, Christ and the apostles never "correct" this idea and Matthew even affirms the idea of her intercession when at the slaughter of the innocents he states that Rachel is once again weaping for her children (Matthew 2:16-28).

Lazarus and the poor man indicate there is an awareness of what is happening on earth (Luke 16:19-31).

Jesus said that Abraham had seen his "day" and rejoiced (John 8:51-59).

The book of Revelation shows that the martyrs are aware of what's happening on earth (Revelation 6:9-11).

The elders in Revelation are holding our prayers before God (Revelation 5:8-10).

Lots of evidence they are aware of what's going on and care about us for those who care to look.....

 

[narnia59]

To answer your original question.....The Bible doesn’t tell us if people in heaven are able to observe what happens on earth or hear us or do anything for us.

Never forget that heaven’s main focus is Christ. Even if those in heaven see some of what happens here, they now see it from God’s point of view.

Habakkuk 2:14........
"And they know that some day “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea”.

Seeing from God's point of view would be accurate.

Christ is so united to his body on earth that he sees our persecution as being his own (Acts 9:4). If our focus in heaven will truly be on Christ, and we will truly see as he sees, how can our focus not be on his body on earth as his is? If our prayers for each other today can help each other, how can our prayers from God's point of view not be even more perfect and effective? Why would we think that people in heaven have broken all ties to the body of Christ on earth and are partying when we are still suffering? If one member suffers, all suffer together (1 Corinthians 12:26). Christ has united all things in heaven and on earth to him (Ephesians 1:9-10), so yes indeed our focus in heaven will be Christ, just as it should be here on earth. Perfect union with Christ will only intensify our care for each other, not diminish it, for we will care as he does.

 

[Major1]

Seeing from God's point of view would be accurate.

Christ is so united to his body on earth that he sees our persecution as being his own (Acts 9:4). If our focus in heaven will truly be on Christ, and we will truly see as he sees, how can our focus not be on his body on earth as his is? If our prayers for each other today can help each other, how can our prayers from God's point of view not be even more perfect and effective? Why would we think that people in heaven have broken all ties to the body of Christ on earth and are partying when we are still suffering? If one member suffers, all suffer together (1 Corinthians 12:26). Christ has united all things in heaven and on earth to him (Ephesians 1:9-10), so yes indeed our focus in heaven will be Christ, just as it should be here on earth. Perfect union with Christ will only intensify our care for each other, not diminish it, for we will care as he does.

That is a wonderful human thought but it is not Biblical.

Isaiah 65:17 says in heaven ....
"the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Do we just ignore that Scripture alltogether because we want to believe that those in heaven can see us and know what we are experiecing???

 

[Major1]

Abraham knew about Moses and the Prophets and the rich man's life. Rachel wept over the Babylonian captives. The host in Revelation sees the fall of Babylon. Elijah and Moses talks to Jesus about his crucifixion. The angels are aware and we are told that we will be like them. Hebrews describes those in heaven as a great cloud of witnesses and says that when we approach God, we approach them too. Ect.

Then please explain Isaiah 65:17 which says in heaven .....
"the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

 

[narnia59]

That is a wonderful human thought but it is not Biblical.

Isaiah 65:17 says in heaven ....
"the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Do we just ignore that Scripture alltogether because we want to believe that those in heaven can see us and know what we are experiecing???

You seem to ignore all the passages that indicate they can indeed see and know what we are experiencing.

Isaiah 65:17 is speaking of the end of time, not the experience of those in heaven now. A new heaven and a new earth have not yet been created.

It's like those who want to make the argument that they can't possibly know we're suffering because there are "no tears in heaven." Rachel would beg to differ with that. But all the promises about our tears being wiped away are at the end of time, not speaking of the experience of those in heaven now.

 

[Major1]

I found this helpful:

It's divided into seven parts

My dear friend, Don’t be fooled, the Book of Enoch is occult material, written by gnostics that will lead you into the senseless mysticism of pagan religion. Keep in mind the philosophies of the Gnostics laid the groundwork for what today is termed Luciferianism.

In the book of Enoch, 40:9-10 it falsely describes the angel, "Phanuel" at work fighting evil in his role offering hope to people who repent of their sins and inherit eternal life
…9…”seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those….”.

Now would you please post the Bible Scriptures where we can validate the Angels of "Phanuel" and :Raphael"?????

Where in the Bible is any angel being or anything given the job of being the stand in between God and eveil except Jesus?

Where in the Bible is there any charge given to an angel -"who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life".

Those questions should given any Christian pause of whether or not the book those words are found in is acceptable.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

This is referring to the Eschaton.

That is a wonderful human thought but it is not Biblical.

Isaiah 65:17 says in heaven ....
"the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Do we just ignore that Scripture alltogether because we want to believe that those in heaven can see us and know what we are experiecing???

 

[Major1]

You seem to ignore all the passages that indicate they can indeed see and know what we are experiencing.

Isaiah 65:17 is speaking of the end of time, not the experience of those in heaven now. A new heaven and a new earth have not yet been created.

It's like those who want to make the argument that they can't possibly know we're suffering because there are "no tears in heaven." Rachel would beg to differ with that. But all the promises about our tears being wiped away are at the end of time, not speaking of the experience of those in heaven now.

and you seem to ignore all the Scriptures that say the dead know nothing. How does one reconcile those differances?

Left alone, every man entertains his own ideas about it; what it's like... what happens next. We as humans always tend to fill in the blanks with what we want to believe.

I honestly hope that you are right. But do you really want to know want is going on here on the earth when you will be spending time with Jesus in heaven. ?????

Isaiah 65:17 says in heaven ....
"the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ......
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing."

Please consider that The inspired writers of the Bible call death "sleeping"... which would be, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, an "unconscious, dreamless, know-nothing dormancy."

And contrary to the popular beliefs of the religions of today that reject what the Bible says about death; the Bible points to a future time of "Judgment"... when Jesus returns to earth with the Kingdom of God, the [unconscious] dead will resurrect from the grave [live again], regain consciousness, and receive their reward according to the works they've done in their lives.

"But man dieth... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave... until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!" (Job 14:10-13)

"...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth... Lazarus is dead." (John 11:11-14)

"...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment..." (Heb.9:27).

Revelation 20:11-15 describes the Judgment of the dead at their "set time" [following Jesus' thousand year rule on earth, to which Job alludes, above] to regain consciousness and receive their rewards.

"...as in Adam all die... in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order [in his own set time]: Christ the Firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor.15:22-23)

The Bible says that until Jesus returns... the dead remain "asleep" and "unconscious" [knowing nothing] in the grave [Eccle.9:10]... utterly unaware of the passing of time.

To those whom God is calling... that Divinely revealed Wisdom and Knowledge in the Bible is a comfort to know that people aren't "burning forever in hell"... knowing, feeling, thinking, worrying, tormented and distressed.

That's why the Bible says "the dead know nothing." God is revealing His Truth to His "servants" -- who "believe" what He tells them. That they may know the error of the beliefs of other religions regarding death.

"...to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the Words of this prophecy, and keep[believe, hold fast, preserve] those things which are written therein..." (Rev.1:3).

The Bible is for those who "believe" what it says about the dead, the Judgment, and many other things... that they might "Know the Truth" about it.

I realize that this is not what most want to hear and all are welcome to reject everything I posted from the Word of God and you are welcome to continue to believe want you want to believe.

 

[Major1]

This is referring to the Eschaton.

I do not agree. You are welcome to accept that if you choose to.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I do not agree. You are welcome to accept that if you choose to.

Well, it literally says 'new heaven' and 'new earth'. I have to go to work. I'll reply to your question about angels later tonight.

 

[narnia59]

and you seem to ignore all the Scriptures that say the dead know nothing. How does one reconcile those differances?

Left alone, every man entertains his own ideas about it; what it's like... what happens next. We as humans always tend to fill in the blanks with what we want to believe.

I honestly hope that you are right. But do you really want to know want is going on here on the earth when you will be spending time with Jesus in heaven. ?????

Isaiah 65:17 says in heaven ....
"the former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

Ecclesiastes 9:5 ......
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing."

Please consider that The inspired writers of the Bible call death "sleeping"... which would be, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, an "unconscious, dreamless, know-nothing dormancy."

And contrary to the popular beliefs of the religions of today that reject what the Bible says about death; the Bible points to a future time of "Judgment"... when Jesus returns to earth with the Kingdom of God, the [unconscious] dead will resurrect from the grave [live again], regain consciousness, and receive their reward according to the works they've done in their lives.

"But man dieth... So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave... until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!" (Job 14:10-13)

"...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth... Lazarus is dead." (John 11:11-14)

"...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment..." (Heb.9:27).

Revelation 20:11-15 describes the Judgment of the dead at their "set time" [following Jesus' thousand year rule on earth, to which Job alludes, above] to regain consciousness and receive their rewards.

"...as in Adam all die... in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order [in his own set time]: Christ the Firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor.15:22-23)

The Bible says that until Jesus returns... the dead remain "asleep" and "unconscious" [knowing nothing] in the grave [Eccle.9:10]... utterly unaware of the passing of time.

To those whom God is calling... that Divinely revealed Wisdom and Knowledge in the Bible is a comfort to know that people aren't "burning forever in hell"... knowing, feeling, thinking, worrying, tormented and distressed.

That's why the Bible says "the dead know nothing." God is revealing His Truth to His "servants" -- who "believe" what He tells them. That they may know the error of the beliefs of other religions regarding death.

"...to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass... Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the Words of this prophecy, and keep[believe, hold fast, preserve] those things which are written therein..." (Rev.1:3).

The Bible is for those who "believe" what it says about the dead, the Judgment, and many other things... that they might "Know the Truth" about it.

I realize that this is not what most want to hear and all are welcome to reject everything I posted from the Word of God and you are welcome to continue to believe want you want to believe.

How can you really be spending time with Jesus in heaven and not care about what he cares about?

Again, Isaiah 65:17 is speaking to a time after the new heavens and earth are created. it has nothing to do with the here and now. It begins with "“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth." Has that already happened? No, it's an event in the future.

You rely heavily on Old Testament passages here. That fails to recognize that the death and resurrection of Christ changes EVERYTHING.

It appears that you have fallen for the false heresy of "soul sleep" and believe not only those in heaven aren't aware of us they aren't aware of anything at all? I want to make sure I understand that before I respond more.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Abraham knew about Moses and the Prophets and the rich man's life. Rachel wept over the Babylonian captives. The host in Revelation sees the fall of Babylon. Elijah and Moses talks to Jesus about his crucifixion. The angels are aware and we are told that we will be like them. Hebrews describes those in heaven as a great cloud of witnesses and says that when we approach God, we approach them too. Ect.

Just the other day, Nov 8, was the Synaxis of the Archangel Michael & the other Bodiless Powers: Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Salaphiel, Jegudiel, & Barachiel.

O Commanders of the Heavenly Host, we the unworthy beseech you, that through your entreaties you will fortify us, guarding us in the shelter of the wings of your ethereal glory, even as we fervently bow before you crying: "Deliver us from all danger, as Commanders of the Powers on high! "

 

[prodromos]

and you seem to ignore all the Scriptures that say the dead know nothing. How does one reconcile those differances?

If we were talking about the dead you might have a point, but we are talking about those who are in Christ.

have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.​

 

[Major1]

If we were talking about the dead you might have a point, but we are talking about those who are in Christ.

have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.​

Could be. I am not advocating either way my friend.

I do know from Isiah 63:16 that both Abraham and Jacob (Israel), did not know what was going on upon the earth.

"But You are our Father, though Abraham does not know us or Israel acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is Your name".

In the account of the rich man and Lazarus, we are told that the rich man could see Lazarus. However we are not told that Lazarus could see the rich man. All this says is that unbelievers could see the believers, not the other way around. In addition, it says nothing about seeing those on earth or knowing what they are doing.

The witnesses, that are referred to in the Book of Hebrews, are examples of what we should be with our faith. Their testimony to their generation should be an example to every generation. There is no thought whatsoever in this passage of them knowing what is presently occurring on earth.

 

[Major1]

Just the other day, Nov 8, was the Synaxis of the Archangel Michael & the other Bodiless Powers: Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel, Salaphiel, Jegudiel, & Barachiel.

O Commanders of the Heavenly Host, we the unworthy beseech you, that through your entreaties you will fortify us, guarding us in the shelter of the wings of your ethereal glory, even as we fervently bow before you crying: "Deliver us from all danger, as Commanders of the Powers on high! "

Again........WHERE is the Bible do we find Phanuel and Raphel?????

 

[Major1]

How can you really be spending time with Jesus in heaven and not care about what he cares about?

Again, Isaiah 65:17 is speaking to a time after the new heavens and earth are created. it has nothing to do with the here and now. It begins with "“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth." Has that already happened? No, it's an event in the future.

You rely heavily on Old Testament passages here. That fails to recognize that the death and resurrection of Christ changes EVERYTHING.

It appears that you have fallen for the false heresy of "soul sleep" and believe not only those in heaven aren't aware of us they aren't aware of anything at all? I want to make sure I understand that before I respond more.

I am not arguing one way or the other. I am simply saying that IMHO there just does not appear to be Scriptural evidence to support what your are saying.

IF you want to believe that our loved ones know what is going on here on the earth from heaven....wonderful.

 

[Major1]

Well, it literally says 'new heaven' and 'new earth'. I have to go to work. I'll reply to your question about angels later tonight.

Simply do a google search for Phanuel and Raphel and where they are found in the Bible.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Again........WHERE is the Bible do we find Phanuel and Raphel?????

There are 7 archangels in front of the throne in Rev. 8. I'll be off work in a couple of hours and will be able to answer you more thoroughly then

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Simply do a google search for Phanuel and Raphel and where they are found in the Bible.

I know Raphael is in Tobit. I'm not sure where Phanuel is mentioned. Does it matter what the names of the 7 archangels are?

 

[narnia59]

I am not arguing one way or the other. I am simply saying that IMHO there just does not appear to be Scriptural evidence to support what your are saying.

IF you want to believe that our loved ones know what is going on here on the earth from heaven....wonderful.

I provided quite a bit. Would you care to explain why they don't apply?

The book of Hebrews actually say they "surround" us. Kind of hard to "surround" somebody you're not aware of. (Hebrews 12:1) How do they "surround" us if they have no knowledge of us?

There's another passage right before this one that is often overlooked in speaking of the OT saints -- it says that "apart from us" they should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40). Does this not prove they are united to us in Christ?

We're taught in Scripture that we approach God, we also come into contact with the "righteous men made perfect." How can they not be aware of us? (Hebrews 12:22-24).

Rachel is aware that her children are being exiled and successfully intercedes for them (Jeremiah 31:15-17). The practice of praying at Rachel's tomb has a long standing tradition among the Jewish people going back to the time of her son Joseph. Interestingly enough, Christ and the apostles never "correct" this idea and Matthew even affirms the idea of her intercession when at the slaughter of the innocents he states that Rachel is once again weaping for her children (Matthew 2:16-23). How did Rachel know about the slaughter of the innocents?

Lazarus and the poor man indicate there is an awareness of what is happening on earth (Luke 16:19-31).

Jesus said that Abraham had seen his "day" and rejoiced (John 8:51-59). How did Abraham see the coming of Christ?

The book of Revelation shows that the martyrs are aware of what's happening on earth (Revelation 6:9-11).

The elders in Revelation are holding our prayers before God (Revelation 5:8-10). How do they have our prayers if they have no knowledge of us?

Christ has united all things on heaven and earth (Ephesians 1:9-10). They are not "separate" from us.

Jesus Christ has abolished death (2 Timothy 1:10). Do you believe that?

There is no division in the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:24-26). In verse 21 St. Paul says that "The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you." It is not Biblical to profess we do not need those in heaven. If we need them, then how can they not be aware of our need?

You may indeed choose to not believe they are not aware of us, but please don't claim there's nothing in the Bible that indicates they are indeed very aware.