A solid example from Scripture please.

[Pavel Mosko]

Speaking of Catholicity, hearth gods and ancestor worship is universal. I suppose God might have forbidden it bc the nations were ruled by demons and the god of the dead was still a thing. But once Christ took over the realm of the dead and the dead are under his dominion, 'worshipping' them no longer means honoring and becoming subjected to death, but honoring and being subjected to Christ.
I'm sorry. Am I a little morbid?

That kind of topic is what I'm actually use to talking about this topic as far as things like Necromancy. But to that I typically post an excerpt from an Encyclopedia of the Bible concerning what actual Necromancy was during Bible times. And I will painfully point out the differences in that vs. what they claim if they are too obtuse and can't see it for themselves, even mentioning the scriptures about bearing false witness if they try too hard to build a false equivalency case.


https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/eng/tje/n/necromancy.html

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

This is helpful. Thank you.

In discussing this topic with a friend, they told me that only certain people were members of the Divine Council. Like, Job or Elijah or Enoch. That the rest of the dead in Sheol were unaware.

That kind of topic is what I'm actually use to talking about this topic as far as things like Necromancy. But to that I typically post an excerpt from an Encyclopedia of the Bible concerning what actual Necromancy was during Bible times. And I will painfully point out the differences in that vs. what they claim if they are too obtuse and can't see it for themselves, even mentioning the scriptures about bearing false witness if they try too hard to build a false equivalency case.


https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/eng/tje/n/necromancy.html

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

What about Isaiah 14?

I guess the dead are speaking from experience not from what they may see on earth.

This is helpful. Thank you.

In discussing this topic with a friend, they told me that only certain people were members of the Divine Council. Like, Job or Elijah or Enoch. That the rest of the dead in Sheol were unaware.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

In discussing this topic with a friend, they told me that only certain people were members of the Divine Council. Like, Job or Elijah or Enoch. That the rest of the dead in Sheol were unaware.

Got mixed feeling on that. I can sort of see it the way Scripture focuses on famous figures of history that are noteworthy etc. but it's easily challenged etc.


FYI - The Term Divine Counsel is used for a number of things

1) I guess the term comes originally from Comparative Religion speaking of most religions, including the pagan ones that have the ruling deity ruling from a court like any king would

2) In Judaism you got Yahew doing this with "sons of God" aka Angels

3) But the NT Church, at least "the Church Triumphant" (in heaven) are definitely in that category or becoming part of that, like saint Paul warning believers "that someday they will judge angels".


The term has caught on. In Eastern Orthodoxy the theme "that God is a King" has been big forever, not using Divine Counsel terms but the notion that when you to worship "You are in the presence of a King" and this should affect how you worship (standing, prostrating etc.) dates back probably to at least the Apostolic Fathers to the actual liturgical rubrics of temple and tabernacle.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Interesting. I've been taught similarly in Lutheranism. That when we worship we are coming before the tribunal or court of God. This is why we stand instead of kneel. We are making our suit before God on behalf of the world through our intercessions and sacrifices.

Kinda scary actually.

Got mixed feeling on that. I can sort of see it the way Scripture focuses on famous figures of history that are noteworthy etc. but it's easily challenged etc.


FYI - The Term Divine Counsel is used for a number of things

1) I guess the term comes originally from Comparative Religion speaking of most religions, including the pagan ones that have the ruling deity ruling from a court like any king would

2) In Judaism you got Yahew doing this with "sons of God" aka Angels

3) But the NT Church, at least "the Church Triumphant" (in heaven) are definitely in that category or becoming part of that, like saint Paul warning believers "that someday they will judge angels".


The term has caught on. In Eastern Orthodoxy the theme "that God is a King" has been big forever, not using Divine Counsel terms but the notion that when you to worship "You are in the presence of a King" and this should affect how you worship etc. dates back probably to at least the Apostolic Fathers and I'm sure the liturgics of temple and tabernacle etc.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Found what I was looking for!
Enoch 99:2

 

[concretecamper]

Is there an example from Scripture of a person on earth invoking a person in heaven?

I have tried to research this question online, even purchases a few books. I have read some of the threads here. But, the essential question is never answered. Where in 6000 yrs of recorded Biblical history (via the Scriptures) is invocation not intercession addressed.

Granted are:
1) That those in heaven pray for those on earth.
2) That those in heaven are alive
3) That those in heaven are aware of our particulars.

Thanks.

Luke 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (Holy and True), dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free: and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.
Death doesnt separate us from His body.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Luke 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.

I've been thinking about this verse today actually, in light of Enoch 99:2 and other verses which tell us that the angels act as priests presenting our prayers before the altar in heaven. I'm a little confused about this though, bc on what basis are the angels priests for us since they are neither God or man? What makes Enoch the smoking gun however, is that it not only speaks about the angelic priest but about us coming to God through him, as it were. I know most Christians don't consider Enoch Scripture, however Jude quotes him and at the very least, it dates invocation back to around 100 AD if not earlier. So invocation came out of Judaism.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I've been thinking about this verse today actually, in light of Enoch 99:2 and other verses which tell us that the angels act as priests presenting our prayers before the altar in heaven. I'm a little confused about this though, bc on what basis are the angels priests for us since they are neither God or man? What makes Enoch the smoking gun however, is that it not only speaks about the angelic priest but about us coming to God through him, as it were. I know most Christians don't consider Enoch Scripture, however Jude quotes him and at the very least, it dates invocation back to around 100 AD if not earlier. So invocation came out of Judaism.

Well I see the thread in terms of Holiness and Sacramentals. I posted the following in another thread a few weeks back and reposted it on Facebook.


"Someone asks about the "Religion" vs. Relationship" divide in Christianity. My answer is below.
I believe it comes from Evangelical Protestant Christianity especially the part of it that is against the notion of sacraments. What is noteworthy is this is not "Biblical".
1) Ancient Israel definitely had a religion, and making this sort of thing a negative association towards ritual and material expression of belief definitely has some Gnostic connotations.
2) In the epistle of saint James, James uses the Greek term for religion positively when he talks about believers demonstrating their faith by taking care of the widows and orphans of the local church.
3) The Book of Revelation has more temple type imagery in heaven, echoing the past scenes of old testament where prophets like Isaiah, Ezekiel etc. have similar ones of altars of incense etc.
4) The entire concept of Holiness in the Bible is a sacramental one. It comes from things "set apart for God's service". Like the offerings used for sacrifice in Genesis onward, as well as the various tools, materials, furniture, clothing, etc. used in the worship of the Tabernacle and later the temple. Those things used for that, could not be used for everyday uses apart from your duties at the tabernacle like eating lunch while off duty."

 

[Pavel Mosko]

In the Bible God uses sacramental type language to speak of people. People as utensils of service. Even the process of sanctification as some metaphors there in terms of being hopefully Gold vessels rather inferior ones of hay, stubble that are burned in the refiners fire. But if people can be instruments of service, that metaphor much more applies to the heavenly host.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

It's verse 3 in 1 Enoch. I apologize.

3. In those days make ready, ye righteous, to raise your prayers as a memorial,
And place them as a testimony before the angels,
That they may place the sin of the sinners for a memorial before the Most High.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's verse 3 in 1 Enoch. I apologize.

3. In those days make ready, ye righteous, to raise your prayers as a memorial,
And place them as a testimony before the angels,
That they may place the sin of the sinners for a memorial before the Most High.

Well Heiser would point out the role of the seraphim as being "throne guardians", basically the role of cobras in Egypt. Basically they are props that depict God's status as King etc.

 

[Major1]

Found what I was looking for!
Enoch 99:2

Enoch is NOT in any way Scripture that should be used for the Christian to validate anything.

 

[Major1]

Interesting. I've been taught similarly in Lutheranism. That when we worship we are coming before the tribunal or court of God. This is why we stand instead of kneel. We are making our suit before God on behalf of the world through our intercessions and sacrifices.

Kinda scary actually.

To answer your original question.....The Bible doesn’t tell us if people in heaven are able to observe what happens on earth or hear us or do anything for us.

Never forget that heaven’s main focus is Christ. Even if those in heaven see some of what happens here, they now see it from God’s point of view.

Habakkuk 2:14........
"And they know that some day “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea”.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Enoch is NOT in any way Scripture that should be used for the Christian to validate anything.

Jude quotes Enoch though.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

To answer your original question.....The Bible doesn’t tell us if people in heaven are able to observe what happens on earth or hear us or do anything for us.

Never forget that heaven’s main focus is Christ. Even if those in heaven see some of what happens here, they now see it from God’s point of view.

Habakkuk 2:14........
"And they know that some day “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea”.

If they see from God's pov, then they see us and love us completely. Right?

 

[Major1]

If they see from God's pov, then they see us and love us completely. Right?

No mamm. That is our human way of thinking and wanting. That is not in any way Biblical.

I have never been able to find any conclusive Bible evidence that our lost loved ones can see us from heaven. We can only speculate at best. Where the Bible is silent, I believe we ought to be. Where the Bible doesn’t speak specifically on the subject, then we should not speak specifically on the subject. The main thing that we can do is to make sure we get there…and if we are saved…to take as many to heaven as we can by God’s divine plan.

 

[Major1]

Jude quotes Enoch though.

I have heard that question about 100 times.

Jude 14-15
"It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

The apocryphal writing called "the Book of Enoch," contains a statement resembling Jude’s, but there is no proof it existed at the time of Jude.

Jude quoted a man who lived about 4000 years before he did and the book from Enoch has been lost for thousdands of years.

Even if Jude cites a passage from this non-canonical book, it does not mean he accepted the whole book as true, only this particular statement.

IMO.....the books of the Apocrypha should be rejected by all Christians.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I found this helpful:

It's divided into seven parts

I have heard that question about 100 times.

Jude 14-15
"It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

The apocryphal writing called "the Book of Enoch," contains a statement resembling Jude’s, but there is no proof it existed at the time of Jude.

Jude quoted a man who lived about 4000 years before he did and the book from Enoch has been lost for thousdands of years.

Even if Jude cites a passage from this non-canonical book, it does not mean he accepted the whole book as true, only this particular statement.

IMO.....the books of the Apocrypha should be rejected by all Christians.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Abraham knew about Moses and the Prophets and the rich man's life. Rachel wept over the Babylonian captives. The host in Revelation sees the fall of Babylon. Elijah and Moses talks to Jesus about his crucifixion. The angels are aware and we are told that we will be like them. Hebrews describes those in heaven as a great cloud of witnesses and says that when we approach God, we approach them too. Ect.

No mamm. That is our human way of thinking and wanting. That is not in any way Biblical.

I have never been able to find any conclusive Bible evidence that our lost loved ones can see us from heaven. We can only speculate at best. Where the Bible is silent, I believe we ought to be. Where the Bible doesn’t speak specifically on the subject, then we should not speak specifically on the subject. The main thing that we can do is to make sure we get there…and if we are saved…to take as many to heaven as we can by God’s divine plan.