A small trinity question

[Iollain]

Isn't this Paulian philosophy? Why should we believe him(Paul)?

I believe the Bible to be inspired by God.

 

[arunma]

Again, isn't this Paulian philosophy? We should we believe him?

For the same reason you should believe Mark or Luke, or any other writer of Scripture.

 

[Iollain]

BUt Jesus, according to the Bible , himself said that he was powerless to do anything, so how can he be God?
Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30)

How can "God" be ignorant?
Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32)

How can "God" be increasing in wisdom as he grows up? Shouldn't "God" be omniscient"
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." (Luke, 2:52)

Of course God can raise the dead, but Jesus can't. Jesus is powerless. God is not powerless.

And why should we believe what John and PAul wrote when what they said about the nature of God is illogical and doesn't make sense?

It is hard to get an understanding of the Trinity of God. If you look at it this way, the Word left His 'omnies' in Heaven, and relied on the Holy Spirit to talk to the Father, He was human.

 

[Iollain]

If Jesus was sacrificed by God, then why did he run away and hide? Shouldn't he gave himself up so that mankind sins would be cleansed?

He was sacraficed by man, God allowed it to happen. Jesus didn't run and hide when He knew the time had come for them to crucify Him. He did give Himself up or they would never have found Him. Throughout the NT we read of Him disappearing from the people trying to kill Him.

"God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for
he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

"God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took
counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more
openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

"God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take
him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39)

"God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus
hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and
so passed by." (John, 8:59)

And if Jesus was supposed to have died raised again so that our sins would be cleansed, why do you Christians treat Judas as a pariah. Shouldn't he be a hero?

God the Son, yes Jesus had to flee them because it was not time yet to go, He had stuff to do like heal people and preach. A time for everything.


Judas obviously did not believe who Jesus was, or something, and there was no excuse for it because he saw God knows how many miracles and walked with Jesus, and still he turned him in. Did he repent after? Who knows? God does.

Judas is not a hero anymore than the Pharasees or the crucifiers, if Jesus wanted to He could have called on all the angels, yes He was scared to die, He had human emotions because He was fully human.

 

[HeWhoSearches]

"Oh, She is the Love that flows in between... between God and the Son, between God and His Children,, and between Christ and the World...."

She.
She?!?

Yep.

She.

Thank you.
I've finished now.

Of course, the divine feminen, Sophia (wisdom), was the part of the more natural trinity of the pagan Mysteries: God the father, God the Son, and the Mother Goddess.

Of course, upon becoming a fairly sexist religion (the Mysteries were not), Christianity did away with the divine feminen, and replaced it with the rather odd, and asexual "Holy Ghost."

 

[benmaarof]

Because Adam,lost it all, Adam wilfully sinned because God told him not to eat of that one tree or he would die......all humans have this curse of death from the fall, as we are from Adam. Jesus came to fix that, if we believe on Him we will have eternal life.

Hbr 9:1 Then verily the first [covenant] had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Hbr 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Hbr 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Hbr 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

Hbr 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Hbr 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service [of God].

Hbr 9:7 But into the second [went] the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and [for] the errors of the people:

Hbr 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Hbr 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hbr 9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.

Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.

Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.


Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hbr 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission

Again with Paul. How can you know he was God inspired? Why didn't Jesus himself taught all these above while he was still on earth.? Why then we can know of the nature of man and sin until Paul point this out? And why didn't Jesus prophesied about the coming of Paul? You've got to admit, what he (Paul) taught was pretty monumental. He basically said the law that God gave to Moses was no more in use since Jesus died. It's a big thing. Why didn't Jesus said somebody will teach the truth about the nature of God and man and sin after he was gone?

How do we know Paul was telling the truth?

 

[HeWhoSearches]

why would god kill himself or his son as you say? do you think that god needs blood to forgive or that he must do something to get rid of our sins what you think he does not have the capability to erase sin if he wants?

It's a theological concept as old as time itself. Go read about the pagan Mysteries, it may enlighten you.

 

[Iollain]

Of course, the divine feminen, Sophia (wisdom), was the part of the more natural trinity of the pagan Mysteries: God the father, God the Son, and the Mother Goddess.

Of course, upon becoming a fairly sexist religion (the Mysteries were not), Christianity did away with the divine feminen, and replaced it with the rather odd, and asexual "Holy Ghost."

I'm not so sure that the RCC says that the Holy Spirit is a 'she'. But anyways:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God does have father, as well as mother qualities.

The Spirit is not odd He is our Creator

 

[HeWhoSearches]

I'm not so sure that the RCC says that the Holy Spirit is a 'she'. But anyways:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God does have father, as well as mother qualities.

The Spirit is not odd He is our Creator

I understand, but keep in mind, Genesis is a Jewish religious text. The pagan Mysteries are a...pagan religion. EARLY Judaism and paganism were completely foreign, so you can't begin to compare the two. Judaism did not begin to come into contact untill their expulsion from the Holy Land; and the "Light of Israel," the Jewish Rabbis in Alexandria, became the first "Pagan Jews," and created Jewish versions of the Mysteries, such as the Mysteries of Moses.

Christianity, however, is not alien to the Mysteries, and one will discover, virtual copies.

 

[Iollain]

Again with Paul. How can you know he was God inspired? Why didn't Jesus himself taught all these above while he was still on earth.? Why then we can know of the nature of man and sin until Paul point this out? And why didn't Jesus prophesied about the coming of Paul? You've got to admit, what he (Paul) taught was pretty monumental. He basically said the law that God gave to Moses was no more in use since Jesus died. It's a big thing. Why didn't Jesus said somebody will teach the truth about the nature of God and man and sin after he was gone?

How do we know Paul was telling the truth?

Well you can believe that the Bible is inspired by God or you can believe it not, i guess.

 

[Iollain]

I understand, but keep in mind, Genesis is a Jewish religious text. The pagan Mysteries are a...pagan religion. EARLY Judaism and paganism were completely foreign, so you can't begin to compare the two. Judaism did not begin to come into contact untill their expulsion from the Holy Land; and the "Light of Israel," the Jewish Rabbis in Alexandria, became the first "Pagan Jews," and created Jewish versions of the Mysteries, such as the Mysteries of Moses.

Christianity, however, is not alien to the Mysteries, and one will discover, virtual copies.

You can't call God male or female anyways. Pagans or non-Jews were different from place to place, you can't say the Pagans, or the whole world taught the same things.

 

[HeWhoSearches]

You can't call God male or female anyways. Pagans or non-Jews were different from place to place, you can't say the Pagans, or the whole world taught the same things.

That is true. But in researching the Mysteries, one discovers, that indeed they practically covered the world, and were VERY simmilar (VERY), differences mainly were names.

The pagan Mysteries spread from Spain to Iran, if not farther.

ANYWAY, back on track.

I have wondered sometimes, if we might have ended up having 7 forms of God, or even 15. After all, the significance of 3 is a holy number and the rest too.

Beginning, Middle, End

Birth, Life, Death

And so on and so forth.

 

[arunma]

That is true. But in researching the Mysteries, one discovers, that indeed they practically covered the world, and were VERY simmilar (VERY), differences mainly were names.

The pagan Mysteries spread from Spain to Iran, if not farther.

And which mysteries are you referring to?

 

[Iollain]

That is true. But in researching the Mysteries, one discovers, that indeed they practically covered the world, and were VERY simmilar (VERY), differences mainly were names.

The pagan Mysteries spread from Spain to Iran, if not farther.

ANYWAY, back on track.

I have wondered sometimes, if we might have ended up having 7 forms of God, or even 15. After all, the significance of 3 is a holy number and the rest too.

Beginning, Middle, End

Birth, Life, Death

And so on and so forth.

Seven is a very important number in the Bible if you do a Bible search on it

 

[Catholicism]

In Islam we have one god... onlye one god and the holy spirit for us is an angel called Jibril. He is the one who was sent down with god's messages to Muhammed (pbuh) but Jibril is not god....... he is only an angel. and Muhammed was not the son of god...... he was just his meesenger.

So if it could be shown that there is procession in God Islam would have to be false?

 

[HeWhoSearches]

And which mysteries are you referring to?

Doesn't really matter which. Whichever one strikes your fancy really. The Mysteries of Osirus, Dionysus, Attis, Adonis, Serapis, and so on and so forth.

But they don't really matter. My point was, that the "Holy Trinity" had existed for time inumerable, so long, that it was inevitable that it be a part of modern spirituality.

 

[HeWhoSearches]

Seven is a very important number in the Bible if you do a Bible search on it

I know.

I wonder what they would have been if so. Like the 7 attributes of God? I always wondered, why stop with 3?

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Shalom benmaarof.

I see that Iollain deluged you with quotes from Hebrews. Instead of attacking Paul, you should have asked her to rephrase all that in her own words. Paul is not easy to understand -- He apparently wrote in some pretty complicated Greek, because the English translations are long, convoluted sentences with sub-clauses and side-tracks all over the place. Even the Apostle Peter said something like, "Our brother Paul writes many things, which are difficult to understand..."

That ought to answer your questions about how Paul related to Jesus. You are right, that there is no record of Jesus appointing Paul as an Apostle or Spokesman while he walked the earth. But Jesus did appoint Peter as his chief spokesman, and Peter called Paul a "brother". I know that you Moslems do not believe ANYTHING in either the Old Testament or the New, because you say that we wicked Jews went and changed everything; so why do you talk about Jesus and Paul, as though you take either of them seriously? The "Jesus" you believe in is the "Isa" of Qur'an, and there is no connection between him and the "Jesus" of the Christian Bible. Of course, your "Isa" had no connection to Paul! But "Jesus" did -- so don't confuse the two.

As for Iollain's remarks, let me stand in you stead here, to defend the One True God, the God of Israel. Those quotes from Hebrews say nothing about God having three "persons". Paul was talking, in his very complicated way, about the analogy between Jesus' self-sacrifice and the ritual sacrifices commanded by Moses. That is all it was -- an analogy. When trying to understand the Bible, you can't take a scripture from here and a scripture from there, and make a doctrine out of it. If your doctrine is to reflect the truth of God, it has to agree with all scripture. You say that Jesus was both god and human. Very well -- Then you should know that human sacrifice is forbidden to Jews, under the commandments given by Moses. Those same commandments ordered the Jews not to worship any god alongside their one God -- the one Jesus called "Our Father", and the one Paul called "The God of Jesus Christ".

Now, if you (Iollain) would listen to common sense in this matter, you would understand that a "God" is someone higher in respect and authority than the one whose "God" He is -- so there is no way on can worship Jesus as being in any way equal in stature to the God of Israel. It would be ridiculous to have to argue about these things, if there weren't, tragically, so many millions of people who hold such nonesense above the truth. But in your defense, generation upon generation of Christians have held this (Trinity) doctrine (and those who spoke against it were burned at the stake), so I need to speak on the matter, repeating the obvious over and over again. I appeal first to common sense -- to the fact that the New Testament, over and over again, refers to the one you call "God the Father" as simply, "God"; whereas the one you call "God the Son" is everywhere called not "God", but "God's son". I implore you, speaking as a son of God and speaking to one who believes herself to be a daughter of God, that neither you, I nor Jesus can at the same time be the son or daughter of God and God Himself: It is illogical, a lie from the depths of darkness.

Concerning what I just said, benmaarof, I know what the Qur'an says about Allah not having sons and daughters. But remember, I am not talking here about Qur'an. I am talking to Iollain, who claims to believe the Bible; and the Bible calls all believers "sons and daughters of God." But Christians pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to believe, and which parts they reject. When Jesus is called the "son of God", Christians say this is meant literally; but when Jesus says that we are sons and daughters of God, Christians say this is meant figuratively -- even though Jesus went so far as to call himself our brother. In so doing, he puts us on EXACTLY THE SAME PLANE as himself.

Of course, this also goes against what Qur'an says about Isa. But as I said before, we are not talking here about the Isa of Qur'an -- We are talking about Jesus of the New Testament.

In John 17, the man Jesus prayed to God, "that we would be one, even as he and the Father were one". That ought to tell any one with a rational mind, just what Jesus meant when he told Philip, "The Father and I are one." He and the Father (i.e. The One True God) are "one" in the same sense that fellow believers are expected to be "one" with one another. Are we different "persons" of the same human being? Of course not! Even in the New Heaven and New Earth, we retain individual identities. What's more, Jesus has put himself on the same level as us, in calling himself our brother. Common sense reads this plainly and simply, and in agreement with ALL scripture: Jesus and all believers are on one plane, human beings; and God (whom the Christians call "God the Father") is on a much higher plane: He alone is to be worshipped, not Jesus nor any of us. The only way in which Jesus and we both can claim equality with God, is that God -- who is higher than us and more worthy than us -- has condescended to receive us into His eternal presence, giving us authority over angels and devils and every other power.

But these are common sense arguments, and truly "religious" people, as this world sees religion, refuse to follow common sense. Very well. Let me make one last argument, and then I will yield to all: in John 4:22, Jesus said,

"We know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Let me assure you, that no Jew has believed in any sort of Trinity for 4,000 years. To this day, they renounce any such notion. Jesus said many things against the Pharisees, who are the fathers of todays Jews; but he states plainly here that there was one thing in which their understanding is correct -- namely, the nature of God.

So, friend benmaarof, we disagree on many things; but in saying there is but one God, who does not share His glory with any man or woman, you are absolutely correct.

Salaam and Shalom

 

[alyaba]

salam joseph, i like and agree with alot of your points but there is one thing that i hope you answer. are you arguing that from the bible it apears that jesus never claimed to be god or are you trying to say that christions just ignore that part.

shalom

 

[benmaarof]

Salaam Joe (Can I call you that? JosephStalin's too spine-chilling)

Thanks for your insight. I believe to get to the truth, we need to know from where our belief comes from. Is it the truth just because our Priest or Pastor or Rabbi or Iman told us that it is? The source needs to be clear, so, in the absence of ambiguity, there will be clarity. Thats why sometimes, in my discussions with other people I would like to know how they came to that belief and how they came to the conclusion that what they believe is true.

But I would like to make a little correction. We Muslims do not believe that everything in the OT and the NT to be false. If it contradict the Quran or the Hadith or logic, only then we will say that they (parts of it, not all) are false. Anything not mentioned, we won't comment on it because it could be the truth. For example, the Quran nor the Hadiths never did say that Jesus was a carpenter. If we say that information is false, then we are making an error. If it's true, then it's the truth. Best we could do is to say "No comment".

Salaam.