A small but not insignificant detail in the Qur'an

[sur]

So who's Lut?

[50.13] And Ad and Firon and Lut's brethren

and who's Nuh?

[38.12] The people of Nuh and Ad, and Firon, the lord of spikes, rejected (apostles) before them.



On the islamic timeline these are names that precede Joseph (Yusuf)!

So, where are we at now?

The Koran refers to the King of Egypt as Pharaoh in dozens upon dozens of verses, including ones dealing with people who lived BEFORE the time of Joseph, which were among those I cited in post #49.

BUMP
Anyone?

Then you admit that in the context of Noah they talk about Pharaoh!

And, remember this is written well after the events, so they're looking back to the time before Joseph and calling the King of Egypt Pharoah!

Check, and mate!

i replied to ur PM. Posting it here again though couple of muslims have already given u clear reply but u seem to like living in world of dreams.

Quote:-
[38:12] Disbelieving before them were the people of Noah, `Aad, and the mighty Pharaoh.


They all three belong to different times. Noah & Aad & Firaun all belong to different eras so firaun is NOT being mentioned in context of Noah rather in context of "DISBELIEVING nations of past from different times"


Firaun in these verses is same as Firaun of Moses since Quran has used term Firaun only in context of Moses.


Same is the case with other verse, read before 50:13:-

[50:12] Disbelieving before them were the people of Noah, the dwellers of Russ, and Thamoud. [50:13] And `Aad, Pharaoh, and the brethren of Lot.


sorry buddy, check mate back on u.

 

[Montalban]

For interest, too
"Pharoah" comes from the Egyptian language and means king/potentate. The word for "king" in Arabic is different.

The use of "Firon" in the Koran shows that they accepted a foreign word in the Koran

 

[sur]

For interest, too
"Pharoah" comes from the Egyptian language and means king/potentate. The word for "king" in Arabic is different.

The use of "Firon" in the Koran shows that they accepted a foreign word in the Koran

Arabic word for king is "MALIK"

Here r the verses which use word MALIK(King) for king of egypt (instead of Title Firaun) in context of Joseph(Yusuf):-
Qur'an 12:43
Qur'an 12:72
12:43,
12:50,
12:54,
12:72,
12:76


& here r the verses which use title PHARAOH(Firaun) in context of Moses:-
Qur'an 7:104
Qur'an 10:75
7:104-137, 8:52, 8:54, 10:75-90, 11:97, 14:6, 20:24, 20:43, 20:56, 20:60, 20:78, 23:46, 26:10-66, 27:12, 28:3-42, 29:39, 38:12, 40:24-46, 43:46-85, 44:17, 44:31, 50:13, 51:38-40, 54:41-42, 66:11, 69:9, 73:15-16, 79:17-25, 85:18
3:11,20:78-79, 26:66, 28:40, 43:55, 44:24, 51:40, 89:18
2:49, 17:103

 

[Montalban]

You missed 017.101, 017.102, 020.049, et al in connection with Moses, and you didn't address the point I rasise

 

[Montalban]

IF you look at this;
038.012
YUSUFALI: Before them (were many who) rejected messengers,- the people of Noah, and 'Ad, and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stakes,
PICKTHAL: The folk of Noah before them denied (their messenger) and (so did the tribe of) A'ad, and Pharaoh firmly planted,
SHAKIR: The people of Nuh and Ad, and Firon, the lord of spikes, rejected (messengers) before them.

The 'messengers before them' suggests Pharaoh had messengers before Moses

 

[sur]

You missed 017.101, 017.102, 020.049, et al in connection with Moses, and you didn't address the point I rasise

Say if TITLE of king of USA is "kadsgfkjgd" then while mentioning that king i'll use this FOREIGN word "kadsgfkjd". So what if Quran used a foreign word.!!!! It was the TITLE of king of Egypt beyond 1400-1200BC approx. (Wikipedia says it was after 1500-1200BC.)

 

[sur]

IF you look at this;
038.012
YUSUFALI: Before them (were many who) rejected messengers,- the people of Noah, and 'Ad, and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stakes,
PICKTHAL: The folk of Noah before them denied (their messenger) and (so did the tribe of) A'ad, and Pharaoh firmly planted,
SHAKIR: The people of Nuh and Ad, and Firon, the lord of spikes, rejected (messengers) before them.

The 'messengers before them' suggests Pharaoh had messengers before Moses

don't get confused by different translations. If u can , u should read the ARABIC Quran:-

This "THEM" refers to ppl at time of Muhammad(saww)
read verse 38:2:
[38:2] Those who disbelieve have plunged into arrogance and defiance.
[38:3] Many a generation before them we annihilated. They called for help, in vain.



then later Quran says to prophet Muhammad that ppl before "THEM" were annihilated because they rejected teachings of their prophets.
.

 

[Montalban]

Say if TITLE of king of USA is "kadsgfkjgd" then while mentioning that king i'll use this FOREIGN word "kadsgfkjd". So what if Quran used a foreign word.!!!! It was the TITLE of king of Egypt beyond 1400-1200BC approx. (Wikipedia says it was after 1500-1200BC.)

Because the Koran's supposed to be in Arabic, and unblemished Arabic

 

[Montalban]

don't get confused by different translations. If u can , u should read the ARABIC Quran:-

Thus undermining your objection re using foreign words! You're demainding that I read the Koran that's not all in Arabic!

This "THEM" refers to ppl at time of Muhammad(saww)
read verse 38:2:
[38:2] Those who disbelieve have plunged into arrogance and defiance.
[38:3] Many a generation before them we annihilated. They called for help, in vain.



then later Quran says to prophet Muhammad that ppl before "THEM" were annihilated because they rejected teachings of their prophets.
.

Sure, but who were the people Pharaoh was rejecting BEFORE Moses?

Or, was it additional prophets after Moses when subsequent Pharaohs were alive?

 

[Montalban]

More Koran confusion of Pharaoh…
And Pharaoh said, "Council, I know not that you have any god but me. Kindle me, Haman, a fire upon the clay, and make me a tower, that I may mount up to Moses' god; for I think that he is one of the liars." [Sura 28:8,38]

They’ve confused the “Tower of Babel” story.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qbhc09.html

 

[Montalban]

Pharaoh died a Moslem!!!

010.090
YUSUFALI: We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
SHAKIR: And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.

 

[sur]

More Koran confusion of Pharaoh…
And Pharaoh said, "Council, I know not that you have any god but me. Kindle me, Haman, a fire upon the clay, and make me a tower, that I may mount up to Moses' god; for I think that he is one of the liars." [Sura 28:8,38]

They’ve confused the “Tower of Babel” story.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/qbhc09.html

i'd like to answer u in ur own coins i.e., by posting a link:-
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/haman.html


& as far as ur previous post r concerned, i am really not getting how Quran is supposed to NOT use any non-Arabic word. Title is a title. My name is "sur" & it will remain "sur" in ANY alnguage!!!

Pharaoh died a Moslem!!!

010.090
YUSUFALI: We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
SHAKIR: And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.

Don't play futile tricks: very next verse clears ur confusion:-
[10:91] "Too late! For you have rebelled already, and chose to be a transgressor.
[10:92] "Today, we will preserve your body, to set you up as a lesson for future generations." Unfortunately, many people are totally oblivious to our signs.

 

[Montalban]

i'd like to answer u in ur own coins i.e., by posting a link:-
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/haman.html


& as far as ur previous post r concerned, i am really not getting how Quran is supposed to NOT use any non-Arabic word. Title is a title. My name is "sur" & it will remain "sur" in ANY alnguage!!!

So you're saying Pharaoh is his name, not his title. Yes, I can accept that in all the instances to do with Moses, you call him "Pharaoh" as if it's his name

Don't play futile tricks: very next verse clears ur confusion:-
[10:91] "Too late! For you have rebelled already, and chose to be a transgressor.
[10:92] "Today, we will preserve your body, to set you up as a lesson for future generations." Unfortunately, many people are totally oblivious to our signs.

No, the Pharaohs of Joseph's time, rejected Joseph.

 

[anatolian]

Montalban, we are giving you the answers but you are still acting as if you are not answered. Just read them for a second or a third or whatever times which make you realize that you are just confusing yourself.

 

[Montalban]

Montalban, we are giving you the answers but you are still acting as if you are not answered. Just read them for a second or a third or whatever times which make you realize that you are just confusing yourself.

Sure, your best argument is that under Joseph they call him ‘king’ but under Moses they call him “Pharaoh” as if its his name.

You’re confused about the timing of things because it mentions that Pharaoh was rejecting prophets before Moses!

 

[sur]

Sure, your best argument is that under Joseph they call him ‘king’ but under Moses they call him “Pharaoh” as if its his name.

You’re confused about the timing of things because it mentions that Pharaoh was rejecting prophets before Moses!

u really need some time off , freshen up, formet ur brain's hard drive, install a new windows & then come back & read all previous posts again. U r just beating about the bush.



No one says whether Pharaoh was his "name" or not.
All we say is that Quran didn't call king as "pharoah" at time of Joseph & Abraham while bible calls them as "Pharaoh" in times of Joseph & Abraham.


Egyptologists also agree that they were NOT called as "pharaoh" at time of Joseph & Abraham. So Quran is in line with egyptologists discovery while Bible is not.

Now before replying plz read things again, thoroughly.

 

[Montalban]

u really need some time off , freshen up, formet ur brain's hard drive, install a new windows & then come back & read all previous posts again. U r just beating about the bush.

If you say so.

No one says whether Pharaoh was his "name" or not.
All we say is that Quran didn't call king as "pharoah" at time of Joseph & Abraham while bible calls them as "Pharaoh" in times of Joseph & Abraham.

I understand this and it's also 'significant' to you for some reason that was already addressed by Peaceful Soul.

But you were the one who used the 'name' analogy in order to defend the fact that your ARABIC Koran has a foreign name in it.

Egyptologists also agree that they were NOT called as "pharaoh" at time of Joseph & Abraham. So Quran is in line with egyptologists discovery while Bible is not.

There is no conclusive research on this matter
...

http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/P/pharaoh.html

Now before replying plz read things again, thoroughly.

I've raised the issue of Pharaoh before Moses; you claim it's in line with saying 'at the times of Lot, Pharaoh', etc., but who are the people BEFORE Moses Pharaoh rejected (if not these previous prophets; who were alive during earlier Pharaoh's reigns)?

Take some time to come up with an answer. You've not addressed this, not Peaceful Soul's post.

 

[anatolian]

Sure, your best argument is that under Joseph they call him ‘king’ but under Moses they call him “Pharaoh” as if its his name.

You’re confused about the timing of things because it mentions that Pharaoh was rejecting prophets before Moses!

Look, 38:4 "And they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, and the disbelievers say: This IS an enchanter, a liar. " 38:5"What! makes he the gods a single God? A strange thing is this, to be sure!" and now read 38:11"They are but a host of confederates, and they will be put to flight. " 38:12"Before them (were many who) rejected messengers,- the people of Noah, and �d, and Pharaoh, the lord of Stakes,"

You see "them" refers to the people of Muhammed aleyhissalam.And Pharoah was before "them" as we know.

 

[Montalban]

Look, 38:4 "And they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, and the disbelievers say: This IS an enchanter, a liar. " 38:5"What! makes he the gods a single God? A strange thing is this, to be sure!" and now read 38:11"They are but a host of confederates, and they will be put to flight. " 38:12"Before them (were many who) rejected messengers,- the people of Noah, and �d, and Pharaoh, the lord of Stakes,"

You see "them" refers to the people of Muhammed aleyhissalam.And Pharoah was before "them" as we know.

Read the next verse
038.013
YUSUFALI: And Thamud, and the people of Lut, and the Companions of the Wood; - such were the Confederates.
PICKTHAL: And (the tribe of) Thamud, and the folk of Lot, and the dwellers in the wood: these were the factions.
SHAKIR: And Samood and the people of Lut and the dwellers of the thicket; these were the parties.

So, with 38:12 you have an order of
Noah
'Ad,
and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stake/Spikes
Thamud
Lot
and the Companions of the Wood.

That is, Pharaoh is listed before Lot.

 

[anatolian]

Read the next verse
038.013
YUSUFALI: And Thamud, and the people of Lut, and the Companions of the Wood; - such were the Confederates.
PICKTHAL: And (the tribe of) Thamud, and the folk of Lot, and the dwellers in the wood: these were the factions.
SHAKIR: And Samood and the people of Lut and the dwellers of the thicket; these were the parties.

So, with 38:12 you have an order of
Noah
'Ad,
and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stake/Spikes
Thamud
Lot
and the Companions of the Wood.

That is, Pharaoh is listed before Lot.

There is no Pharoah before the Pharoah.As I said before Quran mentions only one Pharoah,the one who strugled with Moses.38:12 says before the people of Muhammed aleyhissalam, many people rejected the Mesengers of Allah,the people of Noah, and Ad, and Pharaoh-the Pharoah of Moses- and some others.