A small but not insignificant detail in the Qur'an

[Disippelen]

What does this say for the cration story and flood story from the Bible?

Hi.


You're probably refering to claims that appear once in a while which lay claim to the stories about creation and flood etc. as deriving from other sources. I've read about such claims before, but as far as I know Bible scholars have refuted them over and over again.

As far as I know, there are very few who put trust in such claims now. It's been a common sport for many decades though...



Well, unto providing some interesting scholar's statements:


Oskar Skarsaune, professor of church history and first hand expert on the historical sources says in "The Unknown Jesus - New Sources to Whom Jesus Really was?":


- The material on which modern Bible translations are founded is far more solid than for any other book from Antiquity.

- As quoted from Josephus about the Old Testament: "Jewish prisoners who rather experienced torture and lots of deathmeans ... instead of saying even one word against the Law and the corresponding Scriptures."

- Historians ask for source material that lies close to the events in matter of time. They prefer older sources rather than younger, that is a common rule.



Well, I can add more later.


Dis

 

[Rasta]

As far as I know, there are very few who put trust in such claims now. It's been a common sport for many decades though...

Just as theologians have verified ID? Right.

Mesopotamian mythology is the collective name given to Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, and Babylonian mythologies from the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in Iraq.
The Sumerians practiced a polytheistic religion, with anthropomorphic gods or goddesses representing forces or presences in the world, in much the same way as later Greek mythology. According to said mythology, the gods originally created humans as servants for themselves but freed them when they became too much to handle.
Many stories in Sumerian religion appear similar to stories in other Middle-Eastern religions. For example, the Biblical account of the creation of man as well as Noah's flood resemble the Sumerian tales very closely, though the Sumerian myths were written many centuries earlier than the Tanakh (Old Testament).

 

[Disippelen]

I guess you can't always trust wikipedia. It's easily modifiable by anyone. And I believe that it's in error this time.

But I guess that people will continue saying this anyway.


Best,
Dis

 

[sur]

What is the purpose of this thread? If ancient Arabic only has one word for "king", of course it will use it, rather than invent new words for pharaoh, emperor, or whatever ruler it talks about.

The purpose is that inspirer of Qur'an knew when the title "Pharoah" was used & when it was NOT in use,
A discovery of recent past by Egyptologists.


Quote:-
Bible calls kings of Egypt at time of Abraham(2000-1800BC),Joseph(1600-1500BC) & Moses(1400-1300BC) as “Pharaoh”.While Quran uses “Pharoah” as title of Egyptian Kings ONLY for time of Mosa while for time of Abraham & Joseph Quran uses word “King”(Malik) & Egyptologists have confirmed it that title “Pharoah” was used for kings of Egypt after ~1400-1200BC.

 

[hamba2han]

On the subject of Pharaoh, there is to be found another verse in the Qur'an which serves as one more poignant reminder of the amazing accuracy of the Qur'an.

“And Pharaoh said: O Haman! Build for me a tower that haply I may reach the roads, The roads of the heavens, and may look upon the god of Moses, though verily I think him a liar. Thus was the evil that he did made fairseeming unto Pharaoh, and he was debarred from the (right) way. The plot of Pharaoh ended but in ruin. .. (Qur'an 40:36-7)

The following is an excerpt from a webpage:

For well over a thousand years, the only ‘Haman’ that was mentioned outside Islamic texts was a Babylonian courtier from the story of the Tower of Babel. Academics derided his mention in the Quran, citing it as proof of Muhammad’s supposedly inaccurately borrowing from the bible; mixing up the Babylonian legend with the much earlier story of the Exodus.

Then, in 1799, one of Napoleon’s captains in Egypt discovered a dark grey-pinkish granite stone in the port city of Rosetta. He showed it to General Abdullah Jacques de Menou, a convert to Islam, who sent it off to Cairo to be studied. The Rosetta Stone, which dated back to 196 BC, was inscribed in three scripts: Hieroglyphic, Demotic and Greek. Its discovery meant that scholars the world over were finally able to decipher Egyptian hieroglyphs. One result was the decoding of an inscription on a Pharaonic stela from the Mosaic period in Vienna’s Hof-Museum. Curiously, the name ‘Haman’ was inscribed on the stela, his given title: ‘chief of the stone quarry workers’. Precisely the man whom a Pharaoh would ask to build a high tower!

From the above, we can see that the Qur'an has once again been proven to be perfectly accurate even though it took well over a thousand years after it's revelation before the evidence came to light.

 

[Rasta]

I guess you can't always trust wikipedia. It's easily modifiable by anyone. And I believe that it's in error this time.

But I guess that people will continue saying this anyway.


Best,
Dis

Taken from: http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm


Origins of the Earliest Scripture

Prehistory to 1850 B.C.E.

Scholars have traced the roots of many of the Old Testament stories to the ancient, pagan myths of the ancient Mesopotamian cultures. In the Fertile Crescent, the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, in present-day Iraq, gave birth to some of the worlds first civilizations.

In this early flowering of civilization, many religious myths abounded, seeking to explain what was then unexplainable. From this context comes the oldest complete literary work we have, the age of which we are certain, dating back at least 7,000 years. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a lengthy narrative of heroic mythology that incorporates many of the religious myths of Mesopotamia, and it is the earliest complete literary work that has survived.
Many of the stories in that epic were eventually incorporated into the book of Genesis. Borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh are stories of the creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world, and the story of a great flood brought on by the wickedness of man, that flooded the whole world.
In this Mesopotamian basin civilization, known to us today as the Chaldean Empire, tribal alliances that predated the amalgamation into a single empire, continued to exist and flourish. Many were allied to the palace, many opposed, all retained elements of their pre-conquest cultures.
The patriarchs first appear in our story with the journey of one of them, Abraham, who, the story tells us, led members of his tribe from the city of Ur, west towards the Mediterranean, to the "promised land" of Canaan, sometime between the 19th and 18th centuries B.C.E. Or so the story goes.
The problem is that we don't really have any good archeaological evidence to support the Abraham story, and there is much archaeological evidence to contradict it. The land where Abraham supposedly settled, the southern highlands of Palestine (from Jerusalem south the the Valley of Beersheba) is very sparse in archaeological evidence from this period. It is clear from the archaeological record that its population was extremely sparse - no more than a few hundred people in the entire region, and the sole occupants of the area during this time were nomadic pastoralists, much like the Bedouin of the region today. We know from clear archaeological evidence that the peoples known as the Phillistines never even entered the region until the 12th century B.C.E., and the "city of Gerar" in which Isaac, the son of Abraham, had his encounter with Abimelech, the "king of the Phillistines" (in Genesis 26:1) was in fact a tiny, insignificant rural village up until the 8th century B.C.E. It couldn't have been the capital of the regional king of a people who didn't yet exist!
This isn't the only problem with the account of the Age of the Patriarchs, either. There's the problem of the camels. We know from archaeological evidence that camels weren't domesticated until about the late second millenium B.C.E., and that they weren't widely used as beasts of burden until about 1000 B.C.E. - long after the Age of the Patriarchs. And then there's the problem of the cargo carried by the camels - "gum, balm and myrrh," which were products of Arabia - and trade with Arabia didn't begin until the era of Assyrian hegemony in the region, beginning in the 8th century B.C.E.
Yet another problem is Jacob's marriage with Leah and Rachel, and his relationship with his uncle, Laban, all of whom are described as being Arameans. This ethnic group does not appear in the archeological record prior to 1100 B.C.E., and not a significant group until the 9th century B.C.E. Yet influences from the east must have been, because we have evidence of worship of their gods and goddesses. The heiarchy of gods and goddesses who included Baal, the god of storms, who made the land fertile, and Lotan, the seven-headed dragon, known to Old Testament readers as Leviathan. There is Yam Nahar, the god of the seas and rivers, and other pantheons and heiarchies of gods and goddesses.1 Reigning over them all was El, the king of the gods, ruler of the pantheon. Remember the name, we'll encounter it again.

 

[Rasta]

I guess you can't always trust wikipedia. It's easily modifiable by anyone. And I believe that it's in error this time.

But I guess that people will continue saying this anyway.


Best,
Dis

Why don't you post the refutations you were refering to.

 

[Disippelen]

Why don't you post the refutations you were refering to.

Hi, sorry, I've been away. I'll need to locate them first.

 

[Montalban]

There are some who may have either missed the point or perhaps misunderstood the real significance of this accurate usage of the word 'Pharaoh' in the Qur'an.

You see, it is not the case of the Bible mentioning the term 'king of Egypt' that is the issue here, but rather, it is the fact that the Bible refers to this king of Egypt as 'Pharaoh' in Genesis when relating the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

This is historically inaccurate because the king of Egypt during Joseph's time was not called 'Pharaoh'.

This error is not found in the Qur'an whereas the Old Testament and other Jewish scriptures do indeed make this mistake.

Man you sure are wrong!

From the Koran
002.049
YUSUFALI: And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when We did deliver you from Pharaoh's folk, who were afflicting you with dreadful torment, slaying your sons and sparing your women: that was a tremendous trial from your Lord.
SHAKIR: And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.049
002.050
YUSUFALI: And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh's people within your very sight.
PICKTHAL: And when We brought you through the sea and rescued you, and drowned the folk of Pharaoh in your sight.
SHAKIR: And when We parted the sea for you, so We saved you and drowned the followers of Firon and you watched by.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/002.qmt.html#002.050

And in fact, in these other Koranic verses:
03.011
007.103
007.104
007.106
007.109
007.111
007.113
007.123
007.127
007.130
007.137
007.141
008.052
008.054
010.075
010.079
010.083
010.088
010.090
011.097
014.006
017.101
017.102
020.024
020.043
020.049
020.051
020.056
020.060
020.071
020.077
020.078
020.079
023.046
026.011
026.016
026.018
026.023
026.025
026.027
026.029
026.031
026.034
026.041
026.044
026.049
026.053
026.054
027.012
028.003
028.004
028.006
028.008
028.009
028.032
028.038
029.039
038.012
040.024
040.026
040.028
040.029
040.036
040.037
040.045
040.046
043.046
043.051
044.017
044.031
050.013
051.038
051.039
054.041
066.011
069.009
073.015
073.016
079.017
079.021
079.024
085.018
089.010

That's a university site using three translations for each verse. If you're not happy with any of these three standard translations, then how about an Islamic, Koranic site...
Surah Al-Baqarah Ayah [49] (Koran 2:49)
And (remember) when We delivered you from Fir'aun's (Pharaoh) people, who were afflicting you with a horrible torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and therein was a mighty trial from your Lord.
http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=27&bid=2

Firon is just the Arabic name for Pharaoh
http://www.geocities.com/xee786/arabic_english_names.html

See also
http://www.itsislam.net/quran/searchenglish.asp?txtQSearch=firon&lstTranslators=1&btnSearch=Find+Now

And, for good measure, the Hadith...

Sunan Abu Dawud
Book 24, Number 3619:
Narrated Ikrimah:
The Holy Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to Ibn Suriya': I remind you by Allah Who saved you from the people of Pharaoh, made you cover the sea, gave you the shade of clouds, sent down to you manna and quails, sent down you Torah to Moses, do you find stoning (for adultery) in your Book? He said: You have reminded me by the Great. It is not possible for me to belie you. He then transmitted the rest of the tradition.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/024.sat.html#024.3619

Sahih Muslim
Book 041, Number 6943:

Ibn Fudail reported on the authority of his father that he heard Salim b. 'Abdullah b. 'Umar as saying: O people of Iraq, how strange it is that you ask about the minor sins but commit major sins? I heard from my father 'Abdullah b. 'Umar, narrating that he heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying while pointing his hand towards the east: Verily. the turmoil would come from this side, from where appear the horns of Satan and you would strike the necks of one another; and Moses killed a person from among the people of Pharaoh unintentionally and Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, said:" You killed a person but We relieved you from the grief and tried you with (many a) trial" (xx. 40). Ahmad b. Umar reported this hadith from Salim, but he did not make a mention of the words:" I heard".
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/041.smt.html#041.6943

Book 031, Number 5966:
Abu Musa reported Allali's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There are many persons amongst men who are quite perfect but there are not perfect amongst women except Mary, daughter of 'Imran, Asiya wife of Pharaoh, and the excellence of 'A'isha as compared to women is that of Tharid over all other foods.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/031.smt.html#031.5966

Book 006, Number 2520:
Ibn'Abbas (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) arrived in Medina and found the Jews observing fast on the day of 'Ashura. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said to them: What is the (significance) of this day that you observe fast on it? They said: It is the day of great (significance) when Allah delivered Moses and his people, and drowned the Pharaoh and his people, and Moses observed fast out of gratitude and we also observe it. Upon this the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: We have more right, and we have a closer connection with Moses than you have; so Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) observed fast (on the day of 'Ashura), and gave orders that it should be observed.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/006.smt.html#006.2520

Book 006, Number 2518:
Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with both of them) reported that when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to Medina, he found the Jews observing the fast on the day of Ashura. They (the Jews) were asked about it and they said: It is the day on which Allah granted victory to Moses and (his people) Bani Isra'il over the Pharaoh and we observe fast out of gratitude to Him. Upon this the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: We have a closer connection with Moses than you have, and he commanded to observe fast on this day.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/006.smt.html#006.2518

as well as Sahih Bukhari

004.055.609
004.055.623
004.055.643
005.057.113
005.058.279
006.060.202
006.060.261

 

[sur]

Man you sure are wrong!

No sir. U don't get the point.
In all ur referrences PHARAOH is being used in context of MOSES.(1400-1300BC). NOT in context of Abraham or Joseph.


Bible uses Term "Pharaoh" for kings of Egypt at the time of Abraham & Joseph & Moses.


While Quran calls kings of Egypt by word "KING"(malik in arabic) at the time of Abraham(2000-1800BC) & Joseph(1600-1500BC). & don't use the title PHARAOH.

While Quran calls king of egypt by term "Pharaoh"(Fir-aun) ONLY & ONLY at time of Moses(1400-1300BC).


Now ask EGYPTOLOGISTs & they'd tell u that title "Pharaoh" was used for egyptian kings AFTER 1400-1200BC.

So inspirer of Quran knew what egyptologists discovered recently.

 

[peaceful soul]

No sir. U don't get the point.
In all ur referrences PHARAOH is being used in context of MOSES.(1400-1300BC). NOT in context of Abraham or Joseph.


Bible uses Term "Pharaoh" for kings of Egypt at the time of Abraham & Joseph & Moses.


While Quran calls kings of Egypt by word "KING"(malik in arabic) at the time of Abraham(2000-1800BC) & Joseph(1600-1500BC). & don't use the title PHARAOH.

While Quran calls king of egypt by term "Pharaoh"(Fir-aun) ONLY & ONLY at time of Moses(1400-1300BC).


Now ask EGYPTOLOGISTs & they'd tell u that title "Pharaoh" was used for egyptian kings AFTER 1400-1200BC.

So inspirer of Quran knew what egyptologists discovered recently.

There is no conclusive research on this matter; so, it is not a given that this is true. The term was first understood to refer to the Kings house or court and later became synonomous with the King Him or Herself. There is no definitive time in history that we can say where the denotive meaning changed from the King's house to his person. But Muslim sites including islamawareness believe that there is a distinct time frame invoved that occurred later than the first usage in Genesis and Abraham. The Muslim's conclusion is as follows:

The term used for the ancient Egyptian king. The word is derived via Greek from the ancient Egyptian word per-aa ('the great house', palace). Originally applied to the royal residence, it was used from the 18th Dynasty to refer to the king himself. Hence, the use of 'pharaoh' for Egyptian rulers before the New Kingdom is strictly anachronistic and best avoided.

My conclusion is from investigating several Internet sites. I also checked to one at Islam awareness.

Note: there are two theories concerning the origin of Pharaoh.

1. Some historians believe that the name is a compound of the words Ra, (the "sun" or "sun-god"), with the article phe ("the") prefixed. This produces phera - "the sun," or "the sun-god.". According to this argument, the King of Egypt was believed to be the earthly representative of the deities, and the title "Phera" (the sun god) gave the King royal authority that was directly derived from the gods. (J. Gardner Wilkinson, The Ancient Egyptians, 1994, p 310) It is possible that the Kings of Egypt had this title before Abraham since the sun god was always a major deity in the Egyptian pantheon, dating from Egypt's earliest history.

2. Other historians believe that the name was derived from Perao, "the great house", (his majesty), similar to the Turkish term, "the Sublime Porte." According to this theory, the term Pharaoh, a term used by the Greeks, Hebrews, and Arabs, was originally used to denote the palace or the court in which the King of Egypt lived but the connotative meaning gradually diverged from the denotative meaning and the term "Pharaoh" was used to refer to the government and the King.

The theories were cited from answering Islam

 

[Montalban]

No sir. U don't get the point.
In all ur referrences PHARAOH is being used in context of MOSES.(1400-1300BC). NOT in context of Abraham or Joseph.

So who's Lut?

[50.13] And Ad and Firon and Lut's brethren

and who's Nuh?

[38.12] The people of Nuh and Ad, and Firon, the lord of spikes, rejected (apostles) before them.



On the islamic timeline these are names that precede Joseph (Yusuf)!

 

[Montalban]

So, where are we at now?

The Koran refers to the King of Egypt as Pharaoh in dozens upon dozens of verses, including ones dealing with people who lived BEFORE the time of Joseph, which were among those I cited in post #49.

 

[Montalban]

BUMP

THE WORD "PHARAOH" IN THE QUR'AN

No sir. U don't get the point.
In all ur referrences PHARAOH is being used in context of MOSES.(1400-1300BC). NOT in context of Abraham or Joseph.

So who's Lut?

[50.13] And Ad and Firon and Lut's brethren

and who's Nuh?

[38.12] The people of Nuh and Ad, and Firon, the lord of spikes, rejected (apostles) before them.

On the islamic timeline these are names that precede Joseph (Yusuf)!

Anyone?

 

[hamba2han]

So who's Lut?

[50.13] And Ad and Firon and Lut's brethren

and who's Nuh?

[38.12] The people of Nuh and Ad, and Firon, the lord of spikes, rejected (apostles) before them.



On the islamic timeline these are names that precede Joseph (Yusuf)!

In order to understand the context of verse 50:13, you need to read all the verses from 50:1 - 13.

And in order to understand the context of verse 38:12, you need to read all the verses from 38:1 - 12.

When read in their proper context, we can easily see that both of these verses are warning the disbelievers at the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and not Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

And Prophet Nuh (pbuh) is none other than the Biblical Noah.

 

[ChavaK]

There was a website I ran across the other day- I believe it was called "Answering Islam", but I will
see if I can find it again-that pretty much laid waste to this arguement. As well as many other
citations Muslims frequently use to try to discredit the Torah/Bible.
I personally have no problems with Muslims and their faith, but it irritates me to no end when
they insult my beliefs by trying to discredit my scriptures. Better people should involve
themselves in and honor their own faith, and leave others to theirs...

 

[Rasta]

There was a website I ran across the other day- I believe it was called "Answering Islam", but I will
see if I can find it again-that pretty much laid waste to this arguement. As well as many other
citations Muslims frequently use to try to discredit the Torah/Bible.
I personally have no problems with Muslims and their faith, but it irritates me to no end when
they insult my beliefs by trying to discredit my scriptures. Better people should involve
themselves in and honor their own faith, and leave others to theirs...

I wonder if there would be such arguments at all if some desert people never claimed to be the CHOSEN PEOPLE of god, and killed many in order to claim their PROMISED LAND.

I believe Judism is the father of intolerance. You belief system innately offends all others by it's exsistence.

 

[anatolian]

So who's Lut?

[50.13] And Ad and Firon and Lut's brethren

and who's Nuh?

[38.12] The people of Nuh and Ad, and Firon, the lord of spikes, rejected (apostles) before them.



On the islamic timeline these are names that precede Joseph (Yusuf)!

They are the same Firawns,the one who strugled with Moses.

 

[anatolian]

There was a website I ran across the other day- I believe it was called "Answering Islam", but I will
see if I can find it again-that pretty much laid waste to this arguement. As well as many other
citations Muslims frequently use to try to discredit the Torah/Bible.
I personally have no problems with Muslims and their faith, but it irritates me to no end when
they insult my beliefs by trying to discredit my scriptures. Better people should involve
themselves in and honor their own faith, and leave others to theirs...

Lets forget the Torah part and focuse on the Quran part?

 

[Montalban]

And Prophet Nuh (pbuh) is none other than the Biblical Noah.

Then you admit that in the context of Noah they talk about Pharaoh!


And, remember this is written well after the events, so they're looking back to the time before Joseph and calling the King of Egypt Pharoah!

Check, and mate!