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We were all talking about the process of purification and about Purgatory as the supposed means by which that is accomplished. In that post of mine, however, I was referring to the alleged functioning of Purgatory. And, by the way, the topic of this thread is "A Simple Take on Purgatory."No...the rest of us are talking about final purification the soul needs before it enters Heaven.
The Bible does not mention the Trinity, but it's there.
The Bible does mention prayers for the dead, but that got ripped out of some people's Bibles. The Bible does mention the refiner's fire in many many places. We know no unclean thing enters heaven, and we know ourselves to know we are sullied enough to need a purification. You even noted yourself that there is a purification.
Yup. Arguing over things that any Jewish kid would have known, that we should pray for the dead.
Earlier, you seemed to be hung up on the name. And now you want to know about the process. I dont think any of us mentioned processWe were all talking about the process of purification and about Purgatory
Process and functioning....If you find out, please let the rest of us know.In that post of mine, however, I was referring to the alleged functioning of Purgatory.
YesAnd, by the way, the topic of this thread is "A Simple Take on Purgatory."
His was a baptism in blood. He paid for his crimes but his death was also how he was baptized. In that baptism he was fully cleaned, a new creation, purified, made new in Christ, and without further opportunity to sin he had no need of further purgation. So 'this day' he could be in paradise. You and I have failed again and again so we are not the unsullied new creation we were when we first came to Christ and were reborn.
I could think of many things more appealing than being in a refiner's fire. But you are right that it is safe in that everyone there knows they are already saved.If man could make up just one place that would seem like a safe place for him it would be purgatory.
No. That parable speaks of the reward of heaven for those who newly come to faith being as good as those who long believed. That the gentiles will have the same reward in heaven as the Jews. Not as second class laborers in a second class heaven.the parable of the laborers in the vineyard tells us otherwise
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thank you.
what I speak to is the same wage indiscriminately given to all workers, as the parable stresses. There are no special cases where some are held back in the time out chair just the same as there is no extra wages. If the thief on the cross immediately went to be with Christ in the last hour "on account of his one act of repentance." as is quoted by St. Thomas, so will others who start the work at the 1st hour.No. That parable speaks of the reward of heaven for those who newly come to faith being as good as those who long believed. That the gentiles will have the same reward in heaven as the Jews. Not as second class laborers in a second class heaven.
I think you miss the point that Jesus was referring to, that gentiles have the same reward as Jews even if coming to faith late. We can apply this to someone coming to a deathbed conversion if you want to. But to use it as a prooftext against purgatory is a reach too far. Sorry. I give you credit for trying, but that 'exegesis' don't hunt.what I speak to is the same wage indiscriminately given to all workers, as the parable stresses. There are no special cases where some are held back in the time out chair just the same as there is no extra wages. If the thief on the cross immediately went to be with Christ in the last hour "on account of his one act of repentance." as is quoted by St. Thomas, so will others who start the work at the 1st hour.
in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance,
Hi alex
Just a brief comment. You wrote:
My question is where you have gathered the wisdom that causes you to believe that God is going to be punishing anyone? God is merely going to separate the wheat from the chaff; the sheep from the wolves,
So many seem to think that when the Scriptures speak of the eternal torment of those who are ultimately separated as the chaff or the wolves, is some 'punishment' directed by God. I don't think that's a correct understanding. God is merely going to separate the two groups. The eternal peace and joy found with God will be eternal because it will be with others who are like minded about God and yes, He will provide for them all that they need. The eternal torment experienced by those eternally separated from the direct provision and oversight of God will not have anything to do with God directing their day to day lives, so to speak, but by the very fact that they will be a group who still seek for their own pleasures and desires.
I understand it as kind of like prison today. There is a warden who is in charge of the prison and his job is to keep everyone who belongs inside those walls, inside those walls. However, the day to day suffering that each prisoner may endure because he's living with a group of hateful and murderous people will be because the prisoner is living among a group of hateful and murderous people. It won't be the warden who directs another prisoner to beat up or kill another prisoner.
According to the Scriptures, God is going to separate the wicked from the righteous and establish an impassable chasm between them. Then He's going to go over and live with the righteous. The wicked will be left for eternity in a place full of wickedness and the eternal torment they endure will be a result of their living conditions. It won't be anything that God has done to them beyond just separating them from the righteous. It will be a one time event and the eternal torment or peace will be merely a result of which group one finds themselves among. God isn't going to torment anyone for eternity. That will be left up to the group.
God bless,
In Christ, ted
it's not intended to be a proof text which is a little hard to find when the bible speaks nothing of purgatory. The afterlife as a whole is given in broad strokes biblical speaking lacking fine detail but the stokes it does give us does not reveal a middle zone before our reward but rather the reward is immediate. The thief on the cross, the parable of the ungrateful servant, the parable of the of the vineyard are few examples but they are not so unique and really all parables that speak of reward show it without any extra dues owed. What is the point of grace if when we die we need to pay for our sins? did not Christ do this for us? If the thief gets to bypass purgatory because of his suffering upon his death then cannot I do the same because of Christ's suffering? Did he not pay and atone for all my sins on the cross or does he demand interest? or are you saying Christ's atonement is not enough?I think you miss the point that Jesus was referring to, that gentiles have the same reward as Jews even if coming to faith late. We can apply this to someone coming to a deathbed conversion if you want to. But to use it as a prooftext against purgatory is a reach too far. Sorry. I give you credit for trying, but that 'exegesis' don't hunt.
And yet that's how you are using it.it's not intended to be a proof text which is a little hard to find when the bible speaks nothing of purgatory.
The afterlife in the Bible is anything but clear. There is an evolution within the Bible on that. And, yes, it does provide for intermediaries. For one, we have the present state of the dead before the general resurrection, presently souls without bodies who will have bodies later. That is a middle zone.The afterlife as a whole is given in broad strokes biblical speaking lacking fine detail but the stokes it does give us does not reveal a middle zone before our reward but rather the reward is immediate.
Your use of parables amazes me. Standard exegesis of parables is that a parable has a punchline but that they are not, except for the rare parable like the grains of wheat, to be considered strict allegories with every item having a theological meaning. Thus, the parable of the workers is that those who arrive late are to be equal members of the kingdom. It's missing the point to make this anti-purgatorial.The thief on the cross, the parable of the ungrateful servant, the parable of the of the vineyard are few examples but they are not so unique and really all parables that speak of reward show it without any extra dues owed.
You clearly have misunderstood purgatory if you are still harping on this. I don't think you even want to understand it, because then you would find yourself with one less reason not to be Catholic.What is the point of grace if when we die we need to pay for our sins? did not Christ do this for us? If the thief gets to bypass purgatory because of his suffering upon his death then cannot I do the same because of Christ's suffering? Did he not pay and atone for all my sins on the cross or does he demand interest? or are you saying Christ's atonement is not enough?
I tried to find something in this reply that is useful but there is nothing but accusations. Rather than just telling me I'm wrong and belittling me perhaps you could attempt to honor me with an engaging response. I'm not Catholic as you have deduced but I don't count the reasons why I'm not as you assume. However if I did the way you have engaged me only moves me away from this position and there has been no attempt to pull me in. All truth is worth sharing and defending and if you can't give me that benefit then why do you even bother? What is your motive here?And yet that's how you are using it.
The afterlife in the Bible is anything but clear. There is an evolution within the Bible on that. And, yes, it does provide for intermediaries. For one, we have the present state of the dead before the general resurrection, presently souls without bodies who will have bodies later. That is a middle zone.
Your use of parables amazes me. Standard exegesis of parables is that a parable has a punchline but that they are not, except for the rare parable like the grains of wheat, to be considered strict allegories with every item having a theological meaning. Thus, the parable of the workers is that those who arrive late are to be equal members of the kingdom. It's missing the point to make this anti-purgatorial.
You clearly have misunderstood purgatory if you are still harping on this. I don't think you even want to understand it, because then you would find yourself with one less reason not to be Catholic.
I was hoping to get you beyond using the parable of the workers as an anti-purgatorial proof text. You seem to think it is. I failed. We are at an impasse.I tried to find something in this reply that is useful but there is nothing but accusations. Rather than just telling me I'm wrong and belittling me perhaps you could attempt to honor me with an engaging response. I'm not Catholic as you have deduced but I don't count the reasons why I'm not as you assume. However if I did the way you have engaged me only moves me away from this position and there has been no attempt to pull me in. All truth is worth sharing and defending and if you can't give me that benefit then why do you even bother? What is your motive here?
Thanks for the link. I couldn't help but notice it included not once scriptural reference.Just came across this article on purgatory & hope. The entire article is good, but I wanted to draw special attention to a cited quote from St. Thomas More:
“For since God in His righteousness will not leave sin unpunished and in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance, it follows there must be temporal punishment. And now since the person often dies before undergoing such punishment . . . a very child, almost, can see the conclusion: that the punishment remaining due and undone at death is to be endured and sustained afterward.”
Full article: Hope, the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and St. Thomas More
Hi MM,That sure sounds weak.
Jesus talked a lot about hell.
We should not water down His message.
M-Bob
That's Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory. The Catholic Church doesn't teach that.The only problem I see with this is the good news that Jesus propitiates God's wrath for our sin. He took the punishment that was due to us
No it isn't.This notion of purgatory is a denial of the gospel.
Just came across this article on purgatory & hope. The entire article is good, but I wanted to draw special attention to a cited quote from St. Thomas More:
“For since God in His righteousness will not leave sin unpunished and in His goodness will not perpetually punish the sin after the person’s repentance, it follows there must be temporal punishment. And now since the person often dies before undergoing such punishment . . . a very child, almost, can see the conclusion: that the punishment remaining due and undone at death is to be endured and sustained afterward.”
Full article: Hope, the Holy Souls in Purgatory, and St. Thomas More
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