• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

A rock so big, it can't be moved.

QueSi

Well-Known Member
Jan 15, 2013
1,511
41
Mississippi
✟2,027.00
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
FrenchyBearpaw said:
So god is not able to create a rock so big he couldn't move it?

Well no, since he is infinitely strong, if He did try to create a rock heavy enough that he could not move it, it would be infinitely large and heavy, therefore leaving no place to actually move it since it would be taking up all space.
 
Upvote 0

FrenchyBearpaw

Take time for granite.
Jun 13, 2011
3,252
79
✟4,283.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Well no, since he is infinitely strong, if He did try to create a rock heavy enough that he could not move it, it would be infinitely large and heavy, therefore leaving no place to actually move it since it would be taking up all space.

He couldn't create more space?
 
Upvote 0

astein

Well-Known Member
Mar 1, 2013
1,825
42
✟2,254.00
Faith
Christian
Upvote 0

FrenchyBearpaw

Take time for granite.
Jun 13, 2011
3,252
79
✟4,283.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Refer to
Psalm 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength,http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-a in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

So, your god is the rock AND the strength that moves it. Apparently he's a haberdasher, a musician, and a real high tower too. GTK. :p

So, he is, or is not able to make it so big he couldn't lift it? :confused:
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,383
704
46
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
The problem is this idea that God keeps all his agency to Himself.

God could easily create a rock so big He couldn't move it, then He could create a hole under it so that gravity moved it.

The important thing to note here is that God trusts gravity, so when the rock is to big to move, God thinks of something else.
 
Upvote 0

elopez

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2010
2,503
92
Lansing, MI
✟25,706.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
So he could make the required space, but he could never make the rock so big he couldn't lift it?
The request to do so is illegitimate. You cannot argue from the POV that God is not omnipotent because there is nothing too heavy for Him to lift in a consistent way, obviously. God is exactly omnipotent because there is no such rock that is too heavy.
 
Upvote 0

pjnlsn

Newbie
Jan 19, 2012
421
3
✟23,074.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
There is no rock so big that God could not move it. That is because omnipotence means God has power over all things. He is all - powerful. Nothing has more power or is too heavy for God.

So it's not a matter of God not knowing or not being able to move a rock so big, yet a matter of the request being illegitimate, as it would be a contradiction for something to be more powerful or too big or heavy for Him.

There's a contradiction between the idea of being omnipotent and being able to create anything, which is part of having all abilities.

If a being is said to be able to create anything, but is also said to have the strength, in whatever form, to manipulate any object, then there are a few actions which cannot be done by the being.

In any case, the distinction between omnipotence and great power is academic, because there's no reason for a deity to exist anyway, nor does the idea make some aspect of the physical world more predictable and understandable than another idea does. Or explain anything at all, really, in that sense.
 
Upvote 0

Gottservant

God loves your words, may men love them also
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2006
11,383
704
46
✟276,687.00
Faith
Messianic
I don't think you are listening to what I am saying.

God could make a computer program in which you are able to lift a rock and then turn the computer off and He would have created a rock so big He couldn't lift it, because He was relying on the computer!

BUT THEN HE COULD LIFT THE COMPUTER.

God relies on humankind to understand Himself, but that doesn't mean if mankind refuses to acknowledge Him, God can't just over-ride their authority as merely men, because all He has to do is forgo trying to understand Himself.

Actually, creating rocks so big you can't lift them is quite creative and so fulfils the law that what God creates must be creative. If you had thought God would never handicap Himself in order to create something, you are quite mistaken.

Are you going to ask God for so much money you can't spend it?
 
Upvote 0

FrenchyBearpaw

Take time for granite.
Jun 13, 2011
3,252
79
✟4,283.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The request to do so is illegitimate. You cannot argue from the POV that God is not omnipotent because there is nothing too heavy for Him to lift in a consistent way, obviously. God is exactly omnipotent because there is no such rock that is too heavy.

Right, because he can't make it.
 
Upvote 0

pjnlsn

Newbie
Jan 19, 2012
421
3
✟23,074.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I don't think you are listening to what I am saying.

God could make a computer program in which you are able to lift a rock and then turn the computer off and He would have created a rock so big He couldn't lift it, because He was relying on the computer!

BUT THEN HE COULD LIFT THE COMPUTER.

God relies on humankind to understand Himself, but that doesn't mean if mankind refuses to acknowledge Him, God can't just over-ride their authority as merely men, because all He has to do is forgo trying to understand Himself.

Actually, creating rocks so big you can't lift them is quite creative and so fulfils the law that what God creates must be creative. If you had thought God would never handicap Himself in order to create something, you are quite mistaken.

Are you going to ask God for so much money you can't spend it?

Well, that's just something else, but as for actual objects, all that's being said is:

"There's a contradiction between the idea of being omnipotent and being able to create anything, which is part of having all abilities.

If a being is said to be able to create anything, but is also said to have the strength, in whatever form, to manipulate any object, then there are a few actions which cannot be done by the being."

But in any case, this whole discussion, and the distinction between omnipotence and great power is academic, because there's no reason for a deity to exist anyway.

And yet those two things still contradict each other.
 
Upvote 0