A response to the "MJ only" thread

Shimshon said:

I personally have no respect for political types. I find hypocracy rampant in such actions. We are to fight the good fight, not each other. And in the name of God....get real

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Right there with ya, Bruh. I have yet to see the real logic in why others wish to fight against anyone disagreeing with them - and then shifting standards as time goes on, depending on who they're talking to.

ChavaK said:

It has become
a forum that simply isn't attractive anymore.

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All that goes on here is arguments about who should and shouldn't be posting and where they should and shouldn't be doing it. This forum is dull.

ChavaK said:

Lol, I noticed that too. Someone at the other thread actually said they were not practicing Christianity. If that is an opinion of most posters here, why in the world does a Christian forum allow a non-Christian group to have it's own forum here?

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I wonder the same. If that's how the MJ's really feel, they should not have a forum here. It takes absolutely no sense. They should be over on the World Religions forum.

annier said:

Exactly. I had seen yourself and others posting sometime back. I thought it was ok for me to do the same. Woah, not so. Then I read a post suggesting that perhaps personal (screen) names could be allowed special priviledges to post any way. As an admission that it did appear confusing to allow you few to post. What this amounted to is a forum that is the only forum to violate their own sop at will. Giving themselves rather than you special priviledges, that is all that is Chavak.

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There are a couple forum bullies who like to try to control the forum and ruin it for everyone else. Why they haven't got anything better to do with their time, I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. I've come to the conclusion all they really want to do is fight over petty non-issues.

ContraMundum said:

Here's the way I see it- many, perhaps most of the Messianics here actually don't attend MJ fellowships. They are church goers, who identify with the theology or perhaps the shtick of the MJ movement. In doing so, they choose the MJ icon, but in fact they attend church. They are de facto "dual citizens" as well. I consider this a little fake but I don't mind, because I can handle the free exchange of ideas. Then you get the other kind who are Jews who identify with Messianic theology and praxis but attend church and are honest about it. These people put up Church icons. Either way, it looks to me like the same thing. Not everyone who thinks like an MJ can attend an MJ congregation, but some will just be more up front about where they fellowship.
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I think people need to be honest about where it is that they're at in life - and others need to respect the boundaries on the issue. If a Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile decides to change their icon to something else for whatever reason (as you did and as I did), then folks need to be consistent in seeing what they identify themselves as and what they post on - and leave it at that. For Messianic Jews don't cease being Messianic Jewish simply because they choose not to represent a "Messianic Icon" - nor do those who've long been involved in the MJish world as Messianic Gentiles cease to be Messianic Gentiles when they choose an icon showing another aspect of who they are. It'd be shallow to even try arguing against that.

I really don't care one way or another whether folks deem you to not be "Messianic" simply because you changed your icon (from Anglican or Lutheran to a regular cross) as I know where you come from. And others close to you also know where it is that you come from.

And for those (if choosing to do selective attention) by making me or others a focus, I should be frank as you've often been with others: I DO NOT CARE whether or not they deem others to be "Messianic" - just as they do not care when they may do things counter to much of the Messianic Jewish movement at large and yet claim they don't have to agree with Mainstream Messianic Judaism. Numerous times, things pertaining to what is said in Messianic Judaism are ignored by folks with "Messianic" icons - but it's accepted...so it is really a bit hypocritical if/when those same people wish to talk on other Messianic Jews (or Messianic Gentiles) identifying with the Mainstream/being in agreement and yet trying to do a "witch hunt" because they chose not to have an icon.

As it is, I already have in both my signature AND my Bio in the "About Me" where I note plainly where I proudly identify with the Messianic movement - and the Messianic fellowship I attend. There's nothing to hide - and it's odd people try to spin things as if others are "hiding" anything.

For ages, I noted plainly where I identified with the Messianic Jewish movement alongside Oriential Orthodoxy when I utilized the "Messianic" icon for years - in line with the rules of CF and what mods have approved of - and it's no different now after I chose back in April of 2013 (after much prayer/council from others - be it Messianic or not ) to use the "Oriential Orthodox" icon in representation since I still identify with both the Messianic Jewish movement and Oriential Orthodoxy ..respecting what's said in both forums whenever I'm there and in fellowship with others.

Nothing new or significant has really happened - and as said before:
Seriously, unless one wants to address them or each/every Messianic poster that has done so or been interacted with, it can be seen as selective attention to do so here...either by unintentional action in not knowing/remembering all factors - or leaving things out due to having an ax to grind with others. It's unfortunate regardless of the reason..

The bottom line here is that no one who identifies with the SoP in any way/chooses to not speak against it is within the realm of a "non-member" of the Messianic world - including those who have chosen to either have no icon (be it Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile) or have another icon outside of Messianic while still noting in a significant way where they are Messianic...and promote a Messianic worldview. Anyone trying to assume other Messianics who associate with the Church in some day (be it with icon or noting support for it) are not "Messianic" or that they qualify as "non-Members" - no more than it'd be the case that someone ceases to be Messianic when a Messianic has a "Messianic icon" and yet chooses to go to Churches/fellowships in addition to a Messianic synagogue or a regular synagogue....and if others want to talk on "rules", they need to at least be consistent with themselves.

People have already noted where the rules apply to all - and as no one has broken the rules in regards to myself, yourself or other Messianics who love the Church, there needs to be a lot of ceasing to the pretense/protests. For the reality is that the rules have always been in place for others since all Messianics (including others complaining) have been able to find Dual Membership if they felt it would reflect them - but as none of those complaining have chosen to bring up the need for such in their own lives, they cannot complain about the rules not applying to all. And they cannot talk on being "shocked" when other Messianics have been documented in doing so in the past ......in addition to making threads where other Jewish believers in other parts of the Church were referenced in Messianic history.

Seriously, people need to stop lying on issues - or spinning them to be more than what they are - and move on in life since there are bigger issues in the world

xDenax said:

There are a couple forum bullies who like to try to control the forum and ruin it for everyone else. Why they haven't got anything better to do with their time, I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. I've come to the conclusion all they really want to do is fight over petty non-issues.

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A lot of things seem to be brought up which are really non-issues in the long scheme of things

Gxg (G²);63396459 said:

A lot of things seem to be brought up which are really non-issues in the long scheme of things

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This forum is not restricted to "issues" ... but more for the sharing of information, questioning, discussing, and fellowship.

visionary said:

This forum is not restricted to "issues" ... but more for the sharing of information, questioning, discussing, and fellowship.

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Instead we get people with issues who want to argue with everyone else who have issues.

anisavta said:

Instead we get people with issues who want to argue with everyone else who have issues.

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Ain't that the truth!!!

visionary said:

This forum is not restricted to "issues" ... but more for the sharing of information, questioning, discussing, and fellowship.

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Thankful the forum is not restricted to "issues" (although I am not certain as to where it was said that it was) - as there are many threads dedicated to sharing information/fellowship and discussion.

Nonetheless, there are a lot of times when non-issues are made into crisis issues when they really are not that deep or worth investing time/energy into since they're made to be larger than they really are - and thus, there's LESS focus on issues based in fellowship or learning (including many you've attempted to make) and more in the realm of arguing who does or doesn't fit. And the latter tends to overshadow the former.

anisavta said:

we get people with issues who want to argue with everyone else who have issues.

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Sadly...it'd be the case that one would have to say you'd be among those people with issues wanting to argue with everyone else who has issues - and continuing the bickering without necessity.

In regards to what you erroneously claimed elsewhere:

There are times when one can spread a misconception and be sincere on it - and in those events, one may be mistaken but graciousness/mercy are a must. On the same token, in times where one does things intentionally - without evidence or basis - because they do not know how to interact with others they don't like without attempt at defaming them however possible, that'll always be an issue that is beneath us as men/women of the Lord.

This is noted in light of how you have seemed to talk often on others needing to take "criticism" - and yet have ignored where you didn't listen to your own advice...or liked being critically examined for when/where you didn't match up with what you said because the accusation was more so a matter of appeal to ridicule rather than really addressing an issue (Proverbs 18:13, Proverbs 19:2, etc.)....and there've already been several scenarios where it seemed apparent you were making false scenarios anytime I mentioned something simply because I said it - with others pointing out the same as being an issue (more in #14 , #19 , #29 , #61 #68 #85 #83 , 126 , #129, #292 and#297 amongst others).

You claimed of myself "he can do what he does best, play the field and jump to either Christianity or Messianic Judaism depending on who he wants to impress" - yet on what basis did the claim have at any point?

Your comment assumes from the jump the erroneous ideology that to be within Messianic Judaism is opposite of Christianity - and that is something numerous Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles have addressed over the years since what's said in the MAJORITY of the movement is that Messianic Judaism is in connection with Christianity. Only for someone either against Christianity or not aware of what is said in most of Messianic Judaism today can it be the case that others noting how they're for Messianic Judaism (sub-set within Christianity) and Christianity is trying to "play the field".....but as that has already been covered before, it's one own choice whether or not to deal with that squarely - including covering EVERY Messianic Jew whom the same can be said of when it comes to them working with those in Messianic Jewish circles and Christianity. As it was not assumed of them they were "playing fields" - it is neither accurate NOR proper to assume I am when I directly follow their example.

On claiming to want to "impress others", I have to admit I find that humorous one would try to attempt claiming such - for I don't really care to impress anyone - be it yourself or anyone else - just as others do not care...and as such, have made plain where it is of no concern whether or not you agree with them when you (or anyone else) resorted to assuming the same. One only "plays the field" when pretending to be something they're not to a specific audience - and the bottom line is that I've be consistent regardless of audience. I have long noted to others in Orthodoxy where I was OO as well as Messianic - and the same applies here in this forum when sharing with other Messianic Jews/Gentiles where I identify with being OO (supportative of Eastern Christianity) alongside Messianic. One can see that as far back as December of 2011 in the thread Real Curious about Paintings ( #27 #28 #29 #31 #35 #36 ) - when seeing where there was a cross-over discussion from the Orthodox forum that got brought up in the Messianic one (on the subject of icons/iconography and Mosaics in Jewish culture) - where I went back/forth - sharing here and there, with all knowing where I (as a Messianic) appreciated liturgical circles like Orthodoxy....and so did others like Contra.

Another instance was the thread from entitled Messianic Judaism and Ethiopian Orthodoxy (as seen in #24 from July of 2011) where it was shared plainly identification with Messianic Judaism AND Oriential Orthodoxy. One would have to chose to ignore what was said in order to assume there was not directness on where others stood. Many other threads besides that can be noted.

There has not been a time where any secrets were made on that at any point - except for anyone who chose to either NOT READ or skip over anything they disagree with.

The entire comment you made - in addition to being an attempt at personal commentary via mocking (against the CF Rules) was also based on several inaccuracies which others have addressed. That's either a matter of innocent oversight - or willful neglect of details for the sake of argument - and choosing to resort to partiality in assessments - something the Lord said plainly He never liked in the Law (Deuteronomy 1:17, Deuteronomy 16:19, Proverbs 11:1, Proverbs 20:23, Micah 6:11, James 3:16-18 ) - will never be Biblical.

Whenever one does an inaccurate presentation, it is a matter of spreading a falsehood - in the realm of Three men make a tiger" ideology where something is accepted so long as others choose to repeat it enough to a lot of people - and if one does choose to spread falsehood intentionally (which is already a lack of real credible action on issues and within the realm of being petty/bickering), then there should be evidence of such to establish rather than trying to resort to claiming whatever one hopes to work - for I was already Messianic/attending a Messianic synagogue for years (since 2008)/had that directly on my "About Me" section - something numerous others (including other Messianics) noted. ...and that was done when I had a regular cross icon like Contra - and had no issue with it since the cross meant "Christian" and that with my Bio already showed were I identified with Christianity and Messianic Judaism. Contra and I had good dialogue when I didn't have the "Messianic" icon since he had the maturity to address where others were based on CONTENT - as seen in places like #3 when he and I talked on Messianic culture from a Caribbean perspective back in 2010.

Other Messianics at places such as CARM are well aware of where I was involved in the Messianic Jewish movement since 08 - as seen on their forums and which others, from Shimshon to Rachael Rachel (a newbie I invited over from there) and several others who went between forums - and it's no problem giving reference.

I also noted directly (when I had the "Christian" cross icon) my involvement at my Messianic fellowship as early as February 2010 in threads such as "Hazakim"--2 Jewish Kats Briding The Gaps between the Hebraic, Holiness and Hip Hop?. In 2009, in finding out there was a 'Messianic' icon, I decided to take that up after being encouraged by others since I was not aware that one of the ways one was identified as a Messianic in the forum was by a "Messianic" icon. It seemed unnecessary at the time since I already shared from a Messianic perspective for years and other Messianic Jews/Gentiles did not have an issue....in addition to the fact that many Messianic Jews did not have a Messianic icon but shared with me freely from what they experienced in the Messianic world/Jewish experience - and I already have the emails/PMs on the issue for ANYONE (in regards to the average lurker/reader) who wishes to see in-depth what was said. I also addressed the issue before in places such as #9 when it came to others erroneously claiming I wasn't "Messianic" just like they did to those who were Jewish and yet not rocking a Messianic icon - silly as that is..

But since adopting the Messianic icon, my bio/"About Me" section has remained consistent - and at NO point was it ever the case where I identified as being non-Messianic. Anyone argued otherwise is a falsehood - and it'll continue to be called out as such so long as it continues alongside the agenda.

As it is, it's rather foolish for anyone to raise fuss over an icon since (As said before) my SIGNATURE - at the end of every post - and my BIO has had directly "Messianic" in it just as the icon - and my BIO has had "Oriential Orthodox" as well for ages. Choosing to make my icon into an Oriential Orthodox one doesn't change where I remained Messianic - and arguing one "plays the field" for doing so is no more logical than one arguing a Jewish believer like Contra/others is "playing the field" because he chose to say he was "Messianic" in his title but showed icon where he had CHURCH affiliation (i.e. Anglican, then Lutheran..then regular CHRISTIAN).

If really wishing to be consistent on the matter, you would have dealt with him as well as other Messianic Jews/Messianic Gentiles - but instead, you chose to argue selectively...and thus, show a hermeneutic akin to cherry-picking based on what you do or don't want to deal with. Truthfully, it doesn't make you look good in the slightest since you should be above that as a believer in Christ.

Frankly, when using selective argumentation, it's more damaging to the Body than many things since it shows a willingness to engage in partiality rather than fair judgment of others.

Again, others have already noted what you (or anyone else choosing to cry over nothing) have done to be an issue - and prayerfully you can receive the correction on the matter rather than trying to deflect it. For as said before, spreading falsehood is a sin (Proverbs 6) - and it'd behoove you to learn not to do so simply because you have an agenda or beef against anyone whom you disagree with in the Messianic movement.

To engage in such doesn't show anything except a desire to engage in politics (a form of "playing the field" rather than serious dialogue when spinning things ) - and it shows nothing more than evidence that others will always have issue with Messianics who consistently identify with Messianic Jewish culture and the Church....particularly when those having issue have made plain that they want no association with the Church - counter to what's said in the rest of the Messianic movement

Prayerfully, the bickering can cease - but till then, blessings on you. Shalom ...

visionary said:

This forum is not restricted to "issues" ... but more for the sharing of information, questioning, discussing, and fellowship.

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But it all seems to come back to bickering over nothing.

Gxg (G²);63397374 said:

Nonetheless, there are a lot of times when non-issues are made into crisis issues when they really are not that deep or worth investing time/energy into since they're made to be larger than they really are - and thus, there's LESS focus on issues based in fellowship or learning (including many you've attempted to make) and more in the realm of arguing who does or doesn't fit. And the latter tends to overshadow the former.

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yep.

Seems we're turning this into a crisis issue. Interesting how we can't just state our opinions and move on. We all need to take it to crisis level. Just our nature, I guess. Kind of like when two members of a sports team start to duke it out and before you know it, the whole stadium wants to get involved.

I don't see a crisis. I really couldn't care less how this forum operates. The only thing that bothers me is when particular members start to really dig into people like Contra or Lady Bug. Don't worry, I'm just in a temporary lull. I've be on vacation next week then I will be doing research for the next 4-6 weeks. I won't have time to have opinions.

Been there! I'll be working on my book again very soon and my brain will be in edit mode.

I guess my point has been made for me.

Non-members are openly and shamelessly debating MJ forum rules. Other non-members are digging up my past bad acts in an effort to discredit me; acts that have been confessed and forgiven (forgiveness that has apparently been rescinded). The focus diverted from whether or not the rules apply to everyone uniformly to... what? Personal politics?

So how is it controversial to want the rules to be understood, respected and evenly applied? Why is that a bad thing? If you cannot attack the issues at hand, you resort to attacking the messenger? I believe that is, by definition, the epitome of dirty politics. So your position seems a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

OK, I confess - again, that I have made mistakes in the past. I have misunderstood situations before and have made serious mistakes, hurtful mistakes, as a result. So everyone gets a free pass. All is forgiven and forgotten. Call me what you want. Accuse me of any motive you like. Just answer the issue at hand: Should the rules apply to all of us equally or not?

I personally think this is an issue that will make of break this forum. I believe it is that important. And I believe that most members agree with that assessment. I also believe that some people engaged in this conversation either don't care or have a personal agenda. So what else is new?

xDenax said:

I don't see a crisis. I really couldn't care less how this forum operates. The only thing that bothers me is when particular members start to really dig into people like Contra or Lady Bug. Don't worry, I'm just in a temporary lull. I've be on vacation next week then I will be doing research for the next 4-6 weeks. I won't have time to have opinions.

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LOL I was sort of wondering what got into that man who attacked me

I mean, all I really was trying to say in my original response to that thread was something like this:

for example, I have lurked the Catholic forum a lot over the years. While there are definitely disagreements among the people, the moment that it looks too much like someone is trying to debate the Church teachings or try to subvert the doctrines that the Church espouses, those people are called out or even banned sometimes from the forum. I can't say I've read every thread here or anything but there was a thread here once that was deleted, about how and why Jesus Christ wasn't the Messiah and why the New Testament is false. I'm not saying that everyone has to agree that JC was the Messiah and in the NT, but I had seen the forum SOP and it looked pretty strict (but understandably so) to me and it seemed that threads like this were antithetical to the forum's SOP. It probably wasn't the first time I'd seen something like this. This was an example of what I said was irritating, and I had told people not to take it personally or anything. I still hope I'm not attacked for this post either.

I'm probably guilty of wrongdoing here in some way or another LOL but oh well...

p.s. probably the only reason I don't have a Messianic icon is that although I agree with Jesus that the Law was not abolished, I have not read the entire Torah. I would feel dishonest with myself if I labeled myself Messianic if I don't know the entire Torah. Since I don't think that I should not be considered Christian in the event I were to officially become Messianic, I keep my icon Christian. That's the only thing I feel I can do right now. That guy who attacked me had no idea why I have this icon.

Lady Bug said:

p.s. probably the only reason I don't have a Messianic icon is that although I agree with Jesus that the Law was not abolished, I have not read the entire Torah. I would feel dishonest with myself if I labeled myself Messianic if I don't know the entire Torah. Since I don't think that I should not be considered Christian in the event I were to officially become Messianic, I keep my icon Christian. That's the only thing I feel I can do right now. That guy who attacked me had no idea why I have this icon.

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You faith in Jesus shouldn't change just because you have come to see Him as the Jewish Messiah Yeshua. He hasn't changed, just depth of understanding has grown on your part. ... it is all good. .. Remember babies do not think or move like an adult... Most adults also lose their baby nick names... like soggy bottoms

xDenax said:

I don't see a crisis.

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Likewise - as nothing done is beyond what other members could've done if they wanted to represent themselves more fully - or felt they already identified Messianic but wanted to show other sides to who they are. Anyone harping on "Special Privileges" - as if only certain people can identify as Messianic (in support/honor of the SoP) while also showing support for the part of Church they roll with.

Be it with primary emphasis on the "icon" itself - or with it emphasized in their signature or their profile (and more importantly, the content of what they say), nothing new has gone down........and having others not support the MJ SoP as non-members (as others have done - an issue) is not the same as Messianics choosing to not carry a "Messianic" title as a icon but still attending Messianic services/living a Messianic lifestyle or doing that in addition to working within churches (i.e. Contra, Daughter of Ararat, etc.). To confuse the matter is to mix catergories - and to complain on others being "Special" when people could've done the same is no different than someone talking on being overlooked for something while others utilized it ..even when they had the same opportunities available to them IF IT applied to them (i.e. having worked in the Church while also in the Messianic world and wanting to show identification with both - and going to moderation to find solutions in representation).

If they had no desire to identify with the Church while being Messianic/identifying with that , then something happening to others would NOT apply to them - but if they wanted it, then they would've asked for it/made it a priority. So what's really a focus is why others have an issue with other Messianics identifying with the Church. Beyond all the smoke/mirrors of "What are the rules" - it's evident the rules have been applied selectively to others whom people have disagreements with...for if it was about having a "Messianic" icon only, yourself and other Jewish members who are Non-Messianic would also be included..and those same Messianics going to church/home fellowships would have ZERO claim to be only "Messianic" ....

And thus far, the main people complaining have been those that neither wish to identify with Christianity nor like identifying with the Church - in false view of what CF as well as Messianic culture has been about for ages. There's nothing "non-Messianic" for a Messianic to show where they support the Church - and there's nothing Messianic about a Messianic wishing to divorce themselves from Christianity or the Church and attempt to claim rules selectively to focus on those who love God's church.

There are bigger issues in life - and no need for scenarios presented that were never true.