The OP on the other thread was really about what that person deemed was a kind of dual citizenship. Why are Jews who can't/don't attend a "Messianic" fellowship allowed to post is really what he is getting at.
If you look for the motive of the post, it seems to me that there is a lot of personal opinion in there.
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In addition to what you noted, I'd say there's a lot of drama/caricatures that have also been done .....in essence making a false scenario. What it is - and will always be - is double standards that go on and that don't get addressed simply because of the fact that to address them would be to address where there has been hypocrisy.
In example, it has been claimed that allowing individuals professing beliefs different from that SoP to have teaching privileges is beyond the Statement of Purpose or Forum Rules - yet the reality is that what is understood is that things posted have to FIRST BE SHOWN to be against the SoP - and the caricature that was developed already assumes that anything in the Church (or anyone involved in the Church) is NOT living a Judaic lifestyle or honor God's Law. That will always be an issue of opinion (mainly from Gentiles) rather than established fact within the Messianic Jewish community in how they've noted the issue to be.....and on the issue, many other Messianics from previous times have also noted the same reality just as other forums have done the same.
It's not really a new phenomenon to have others on forums sharing or teaching without an icon of that forum - as other forums throughout CF have had the same where members of that forum chose to either not get an icon....or choose to have a different one - but people in the forum knew where they stood. Only people who were opportunistic (in having a pre-existing ax to grind with others) were quick to say "Ha!!! See!! She doesn't belong to us since she doesn't have the Lutheran icon!!!!" - while others simply rolled their eyes since they already knew where the individual continued to speak on Lutheran culture throughout the blogsphere.
The same principle applies here - as it's not a simplistic matter of "Well, where's your icon?!" - for many have their identification in their BIO while others choose to do so in their signature. And others are judged based on what they say. As it pertains to Messianic culture, the reality is that any idenficiation with the Church in an icon is taken to mean that one's not Messianic by a select few - yet that is illogical and not based on what the SoP notes since many Messianics have long been involved in the Church alongside Jewish believers.
For others who may promote One-Law , it will always be an issue....but we need to stop promoting falsehood as if anything is an issue when other Jews/Gentiles who are Messianic identify with the Church as well.
The same goes for the issue of assuming a FALSE SCENARIO that has never been proven that being a practicing Christian is polar opposite of being a Messianic - or assuming that being Christian is opposite of loving God's Law/seeing where it applies for both Jew and Gentile (as the SoP) talks on. Those things were long debated on the forum and people voted on it - with it being noted that Messianics come in many variations and even those in camps differing from others on the degree which Torah Observance is played out noted where Torah is central. Thus, unless others chose to not pay attention, it is a needless issue to debate.
And when it comes to the concept of Dual Membership, there needs to be a clear understanding that disagreeing with something doesn't give room for falsehood in presenting it.
For it was never a "secret" when it came to the concept - seeing how many Messianics have long noted in their profiles where they were Messianic but a part of something else as well.....and the reality is that the same rules apply to ALL (not some "privileged few" - wherever that came from) if they wish to have such. The rules saying no one is allow to judge the observance of another apply for everyone - including people assuming they're "more Torah Observant" and who have consistently violated the rule on judging whenever they make it a point to combat anyone disagreeing with them. There've always been multiple Judaisms and thus, as you've mentioned before, people were always expected to respect that if choosing to be here in the forum.
I remember all the flack one poster (sevengreenbeans) got for identifying with Samaritan culture - a part of Israelite culture - and yet she was already involved in Messianic culture as well. People really need to learn how to act credibly in dealing with others rather than just respond in emotion...
If others come in without a Messianic icon, that does not equate to them being unable to share or teach - but what it does mean is that what's shared cannot go counter to the SoP. There has never been a rule talking on "Mainstream Christian" thought not allowed on the forum since CF IS A CHRISTIAN Forums as are all faith-groups - and the site-wide rules promote Christianity, with Messianic Judaism being a Sub-Set of that and in line with it. As long as others don't go around saying "Torah is dead!!!" or "Torah is useless", it's fine.....but others are often prone to generalize and assume that others speaking against Torah in GT must mean that all mainstream Christianity is like that. That's no more logical than one assuming "Nazis use knives to kill others - and doctors used knives, so doctors MUST BE Nazis!!!".....
For other Messianics, it has always been about complimenting the larger body of CHrist in CHristianity and being a movement based in outreach - with Jewish believers coming from all parts of the Church to emphasize the Jewish lifestyle, cultural heritage and perspective. With that comes the fact that we don't promote Replacement Theology, nor do we say that all things "Torah" are done away with (i.e. Festivals, Feasts, Kosher, etc.) since many things remained and other things have been transformed to have a different emphasis. We focus on studying the ways Yeshua handled himself as a Jewish follower of the Father and worked with Jews/Gentiles - and we seek to understand ways that we can promote proper outreach for Jewish people who differ in lifestyle/practice ....and yet despite all of that, there is much in common with Messianic Judaism and traditional Christianity at various points.
The thread this thread is a response to was really very hurtful and sad to see. Thanks for opening a response, ChavaK.
I really see all this perpetual fuss over icons as really rather pointless. I just don't have a problem with free speech the way some do, and I don't think there is a need to continually try to cull the herd of posters here due to prejudicial notions of who is kosher and who isn't. Keep culling and you'll only have a few posters and this place will continue to decline on injecting new conversation matter. As it is there's really almost no variety anymore.
I really think it's sad that a few people here care more about stupid icons than post content. I say to the people who are trying to control and cull the herd to open their hearts and minds a little. Rather than jealously guard the forum until there are only three or four posters left (my count three regulars), try letting the Jews (Rabbinic, Messianic and Church going) feel a little more welcomed- you know, like MJism constantly claims to aim for.
Most people who come here and post, new and old, don't cause a lot of trouble. It seems to me that making a scene about "who's in and who's out" has been the cause of most of the trouble since I've been a member- for years. End that and half of the agitation will end. The rules work just fine as they are. Maybe it's time to re-think the role of MJism for this forum in regards Jews and seekers. In the real MJ world (eg. where things actually matter more anyway) MJism is known as being welcoming and warm to Jews of all stripes. Why not here then?
I agree.
There have been Jews in the past years who don't have a "Messianic" icon but they are well-emmersed in Jewish culture - and there've been Gentiles claiming to be for Jewish culture/raising fuss over others (unlike themselves) without a Messianic icon when the truth is that they don't even come close to dealing with what is or isn't Jewish - and often drive other Jewish believers (and non-believing Jews) away...
And then you have Gentiles with a Messianic icon who love those in Jewish culture wherever they are - be it in a Synagogue or in a Church - because they understand that Jewish heritage as the early church saw it (alongside Yeshua) allowed for varied expressions of how it looked like...and you also have Gentile believers without a Messianic icon who still support/speak in line with the Messianic movement since the Messianic movement itself has long noted that there are many Messianic Jews involved in the Church (i.e. Hebrew Catholics, Ethiopian Jews in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, Jews involved in Lutheran fellowships, etc.) while also involved in synagogue - and they are not limited to identifying as Messianic alone due to where they work.
And then you have the Messianic Jews who have an icon and are concerned with helping the welfare of the JEWISH nation/people and seeing how to aid them in their issues.....being bridge-builders.
What matters ultimately is what one posts and where they stand in supporting the Jewish people in their struggles - and if that cannot be respected, then everything else is politics and those who are Jewish are simply being used in a political sense to score points/get others to take a side because others want more prominence (selfish). It's a pity - but it is what it is...
The bottom line is that anyone attending a Church or a fellowship outside of the Messianic movement is already within the category of not being ONLY "Messianic Judaism" - and thus, their attempts to try discriminating against others without a Messianic icon are hypocritical - for what matters is what is actually posted and if it's in agreement with the SoP of the forum they are on. The same would apply if/when they go onto forums identified with the other churches or house-fellowships they attend - and thus, the entire fuss is really an illusionary battle that brings nothing but strife. Whenever you have Messianics doing those things - and yet forgetting where they were already told by other Messianics that they were not promoting a Messianic viewpoint, it becomes inane to have battles on the matter.
Politics always involve a level of trying to spin-doctor events so as to make something different than you seem like it's worse than all other things - and that's a practice in dishonesty, but it happens nonetheless. One of the ways this has happened here is whenever others claim "Well some people are just
privileged..." - assuming from the jump that someone doing something is able to do something that they could not do themselves. That's no different than having kids on the playground with juice boxes - and then assuming that Johnny having a Grape Juice box equates to him having special privelages...and then whining on it as if he is just breaking "juice box" protocol.
Had people really thought at the playground, they would have seen context where Johnny ASKED for a Grape Juice box because the teachers had long said that such was available with differing flavors - and on the issue, if any other kid wanted to have one, they needed to ask respectfully. The kids who always have had issue with Johnny or anyone different than them (should they be spoiled) will always find a reason to make it out as if Johnny was being treated better than them.....or find reasons to assume that things others do were not what they could've already done.
The entire concept of Dual Membership entails that one - in whatever forum you're in - will not speak against what the SoP of that forum holds to - and that if one wishes to have such, they need to make that known/lay that out.
Again, even members going to multiple fellowships while still saying they're "Only Messianic" live out that concept in fullness - whether they wish to admit it or not - and people who share on the forum for years have noted where they were Messianic and yet also involved in some part of the Church. For others, they kept the Messianic icon for sometime while also speaking in regards to their experiences in the Church when it came to Jewish culture.....but for others, they chose to choose another icon - but their identification as Messianic never ceased and they continued saying the same things they already did just as when they had a Messianic icon.
What made the difference was others being mature enough to deal with others where they are - evaluate what they said - and know how to categorize differences. Not everyone without a Messianic icon is automatically a "NON-Messianic" - just as everyone with a Messianic icon does not equate to representing Messianic Judaism based on what's happening in the mainstream with Messianic Judaism today - and rather than acting like it is some kind of conspiracy for others to have been aware of that, people need to wise up...and keep up with what happens.
