A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[EmSw]

Paul is not "missing".

Matthias is "missing".

Matthias was chosen by the other apostle's casting of lots rather than their waiting for the Holy Spirit (as they were instructed by the Lord to do) to lead the Church as He was promised to do when He was given.

Matthias was never heard from again in the scriptures.

You are something else, Marvin.

Acts 1
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen
25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.”
26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

They prayed to the Lord to show them who He has chosen. Matthias was numbered with the eleven, with witnesses present. Let's see, eleven plus one, equals TWELVE. How about that! We have our twelve.

Paul on the other hand (chosen directly by and trained by the Lord as is fitting an apostle) wrote most of the apostolic epistles in the Word of God.

Had they waited for the Holy Spirit's leading there would have been a lot less reluctance on the part of the Church to accept Paul when He was revealed (the apostle chosen to replace Judas).

IMO the only reason you do not accept Paul as an apostle is that his teaching is clearly at odds with the false gospel which you preach.

You don't know that Paul was chosen by God. You are taking Paul's word without any witnesses.

Why did the Lord train Paul? Did Jesus make a mistake with the original apostles? Did He forget that He needed another one? What did God do with Paul that He couldn't do with the original apostles?

And Marvin, Paul DID NOT replace Judas. This is a figment of your imagination. Get with it, man.

I do not accept Paul because he fails the Biblical test. That's probably something you know nothing about.

Since you think Jesus preached another gospel, He was surely speaking to you in this verse -

John 5:43
I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

Paul came in his own name and you have received him with open arms. You accept the gospel he preached without questioning it. In fact, Paul has become your savior with his deceptive words. You do not accept the Gospel Jesus preached.

Paul didn't even know the Gospel Jesus preached. He added to God's word to make his own gospel. But go for it, Marvin. You are free to choose whatever cooks your dinner.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are only deceiving yourself if you think they taught the same thing. Jesus never taught 'saved by grace through faith, without works'. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!

Pure nonsense, of course.

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

These are the very words of Jesus.

If only Peter did write the second epistle. Do you know what pseudonymity is?

So, go ahead and just reject whatever refutes your unbiblical claims.

If Peter did write the second epistle (which is highly unlikely), he did not acknowledge Paul as an apostle.

So what? His words are clear enough and directly applies to you.

Besides, you haven't answered whether the men with Paul on the road to Damascus heard a voice or not. What truth did Paul tell us about this episode?

I did. And I'm tired of your silly games.

I will ask you as I have asked sdowney and Doug, have you tested Paul's writings to see whether they are from God or not?

I sure have. Everything He wrote agrees with everything Jesus taught. But since you've distorted what Jesus taught to suit your own opinions, you have to disregard Paul's writings.

Convenient, but obviously wrong.

 

[GillDouglas]

Doug, who decided what would be in the Bible? Maybe you should do some research on the subject. Do you believe the apocrypha is true? It was once part of the Bible. What test would you use to discover if the apocrypha is part of the Bible? Have you used this test for Paul's writings, or do you blindly accept Paul's writings?

I suspect you do not want to know the truth of Paul, as it would destroy your whole belief system if you did not accept Paul's writings.

Let me show what God told us.

Deuteronomy 4
1 And now, Israel, hearken unto the statutes, and unto the judgments which I am teaching you to do, so that ye live, and have gone in, and possessed the land which Jehovah God of your fathers is giving to you.
2 Ye do not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor diminish (take away, withdraw) from it, to keep the commands of Jehovah your God which I am commanding you.

Paul definitely diminished from the word God as He commanded. It is clear, his teachings taught NOT to keep the commands of God which He commanded.

Paul did not diminish from the Word of God or even add to it. His ministry was to the Gentiles who were never instructed in the Laws of God and how to keep His commandments. It was wrong of the others, like Peter and James, to expect the Gentiles to live like Jews when they themselves knew it was no longer expected of them.

Paul’s mission to the Gentiles in the New Testament is extremely significant to Christians, for the Lord raised up a unique apostle of the new missionary endeavor. Paul was theologically trained as a Pharisee, and had a profound knowledge of the Old Testament. He grasped that the ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ fulfilled the promise given to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through Abraham’s seed. The Jews were God’s covenant people, and the Gentiles were by and large outside the circle of God’s saving promises (Ephesians 2:11-12). But with the coming of Jesus, the old era had come to an end. Now Jews and Gentiles were united as members of God’s household by virtue of Christ’s work on the cross (Ephesians 2:13-22).

Are you a Jew, Wayne? Do you feel convicted to follow the Laws and Traditions of Israel? If you do not believe what Paul teaches then maybe you should read the Book of Hebrews. Clearly it is demonstrated that Christ was the perfect sacrifice, a better high priest, tearing the veil down and completing what men have failed to do year after year. Jesus said Himself "it is finished".

You are lost, brother, you need to study and pray on this.

 

[EmSw]

Paul did not diminish from the Word of God or even add to it. His ministry was to the Gentiles who were never instructed in the Laws of God and how to keep His commandments. It was wrong of the others, like Peter and James, to expect the Gentiles to live like Jews when they themselves knew it was no longer expected of them.

Perhaps you misunderstood Deuteronomy 4. To diminish is to take away. Paul definitely took away the keeping of the commandments. I'll ask you, did Paul ever say to keep the commandments?

Paul also added to the word of God. The law never said you do not need works to be saved.

Paul’s mission to the Gentiles in the New Testament is extremely significant to Christians, for the Lord raised up a unique apostle of the new missionary endeavor. Paul was theologically trained as a Pharisee, and had a profound knowledge of the Old Testament. He grasped that the ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ fulfilled the promise given to Abraham that all nations would be blessed through Abraham’s seed. The Jews were God’s covenant people, and the Gentiles were by and large outside the circle of God’s saving promises (Ephesians 2:11-12). But with the coming of Jesus, the old era had come to an end. Now Jews and Gentiles were united as members of God’s household by virtue of Christ’s work on the cross (Ephesians 2:13-22).

Do you not think Peter had this ministry before Paul? Peter had this ministry while Paul was persecuting the church. Did God think to Himself, I am going to give this ministry to a murderer who wrecked havoc on My church, and take it away from Peter, who was taught from Jesus for three years? Do you think the twelve disciples weren't qualified and therefore couldn't preach the Gospel to the Gentiles?

Are you a Jew, Wayne? Do you feel convicted to follow the Laws and Traditions of Israel? If you do not believe what Paul teaches then maybe you should read the Book of Hebrews. Clearly it is demonstrated that Christ was the perfect sacrifice, a better high priest, tearing the veil down and completing what men have failed to do year after year. Jesus said Himself "it is finished".

No Doug, I am not a Jew. I feel convicted to learn from, follow, and obey Jesus.

Doug, I have read Hebrews since a child. Again, whoever the writer was, wants us to believe God wants a human sacrifice, which is an abomination to God. So Doug, I will not believe and grasp what is an abomination to God. Will you? Marvin said he would shout this abomination from the mountain tops. Will you?

You are lost, brother, you need to study and pray on this.

Since when is a person lost who doesn't believe Paul? Is believing Paul a requirement for salvation?

Jesus said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. This Doug, is what I am going to believe for salvation. In the early church, many, many were saved by Jesus' words only. No one knew of Paul, much less believed anything he wrote. Even Gentiles were saved without Paul.

 

[GillDouglas]

Perhaps you misunderstood Deuteronomy 4. To diminish is to take away. Paul definitely took away the keeping of the commandments. I'll ask you, did Paul ever say to keep the commandments?

Paul also added to the word of God. The law never said you do not need works to be saved.



Do you not think Peter had this ministry before Paul? Peter had this ministry while Paul was persecuting the church. Did God think to Himself, I am going to give this ministry to a murderer who wrecked havoc on My church, and take it away from Peter, who was taught from Jesus for three years? Do you think the twelve disciples weren't qualified and therefore couldn't preach the Gospel to the Gentiles?



No Doug, I am not a Jew. I feel convicted to learn from, follow, and obey Jesus.

Doug, I have read Hebrews since a child. Again, whoever the writer was, wants us to believe God wants a human sacrifice, which is an abomination to God. So Doug, I will not believe and grasp what is an abomination to God. Will you? Marvin said he would shout this abomination from the mountain tops. Will you?



Since when is a person lost who doesn't believe Paul? Is believing Paul a requirement for salvation?

Jesus said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. This Doug, is what I am going to believe for salvation. In the early church, many, many were saved by Jesus' words only. No one knew of Paul, much less believed anything he wrote. Even Gentiles were saved without Paul.

If you disregard/deny Paul's teachings, then you know nothing of the Justification we have in Jesus. Additionally -
This is why you deny that all humans are sinners, helpless to save themselves.
This is why you deny that only the perfect work of Christ save sinners.
This is why you deny that faith alone receives that saving effect of Christ's work.
This is why you have no peace and continually work for your salvation.

 

[EmSw]

If you disregard/deny Paul's teachings, then you know nothing of the Justification we have in Jesus. Additionally -
This is why you deny that all humans are sinners, helpless to save themselves.
This is why you deny that only the perfect work of Christ save sinners.
This is why you deny that faith alone receives that saving effect of Christ's work.
This is why you have no peace and continually work for your salvation.

I'm sorry Doug. If anyone adds to the word of God, I am not to believe him. If you want to put your life in Paul's hands, be my guest. Jesus said nothing of the things you wrote.

And by the way, I do have peace. But thank you for caring.

 

[Marvin Knox]

They prayed to the Lord to show them who He has chosen. Matthias was numbered with the eleven, with witnesses present. Let's see, eleven plus one, equals TWELVE.

Yes - rather than wait for the Spirit to lead them - Peter and the others prayed and rolled the dice to see what they should do.

Nowhere are the leaders in the Chrurch of Christ told to pray and roll dice when making decisions of that or even lesser magnitude on behalf of the people they lead.

How about that! We have our twelve.

No - the petulent Peter and those who blindily followed him without council of the Holy Spirit had their twelve. We on the other hand have our twelve and that number includes Paul.

It's interesting to me that you would reject Paul while the other apostles clearly accepted him after listening to the Holy Spirit who led them into truth.

I believe that's because you lack the Spirit of God - having never humbled yourself and blieved on Christ's wok at Calvary as your hope of salvation.

You don't know that Paul was chosen by God. You are taking Paul's word without any witnesses.

I do know that Paul was chosen by God. I am taking God's Word for it not Paul's word.

Unlike you, apparently, I have the Holy Spirit and have no need to be taught of men.

As I have told you many times before, if you would humble yourself and receive the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope of salvation you too could and would receive the Spirit of Christ to lead you.

What did God do with Paul that He couldn't do with the original apostles?

What did God do with Paul that he could not do with Judas? You've got to be kidding.

And Marvin, Paul DID NOT replace Judas. This is a figment of your imagination. Get with it, man.

So - Judas name is one of the foundations of the Church?

Paul came in his own name and you have received him with open arms. You accept the gospel he preached without questioning it. In fact, Paul has become your savior with his deceptive words. You do not accept the Gospel Jesus preached.

Paul did not come in his own name. That is very clear in scripture.

I did not accept the gospel he preached without questioning it. Like the Bereans before me - I did, however, "receive the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

You, obviously, did not receive it with eagarness. Instead - you were offended by Paul's message because it contradicts your false and prideful concept of the demands of the gospel unto salvation.

Paul preached the same gospel which Jesus preached.

Oh "foolish and slow of heart". You don't accept the scriptures as the Word of God on the matter.

I do not accept Paul because he fails the Biblical test. That's probably something you know nothing about.

As the brethren in the scriptural account agree with me - Paul did not fail the Biblical test.

You are free to choose whatever cooks your dinner.

You too.

I call on you again to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your hope of salvation before you meet your maker.

Whether you are predestined to do that before you die - I do not know. Time will reveal it.

""The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever............"

I hope to see you on the other side of this life. But it does not, at this time, appear that that will be the case.

You seem to be the living embodiment of the ones who will claim many good works done in Christ's name as their hope of salvation.

He will say to you - unless you repent - "I never knew you."

 

[GillDouglas]

I'm sorry Doug. If anyone adds to the word of God, I am not to believe him. If you want to put your life in Paul's hands, be my guest. Jesus said nothing of the things you wrote.

And by the way, I do have peace. But thank you for caring.

I do not leave the security of my salvation in Paul's hands, nor Mark, Matthew, John, Luke, Jude, Titus, etc. I am entirely dependent upon God for my salvation, for it is of the Lord.

 

[EmSw]

Yes - rather than wait for the Spirit to lead them - Peter and the others prayed and rolled the dice to see what they should do.

Nowhere are the leaders in the Chrurch of Christ told to pray and roll dice when making decisions of that or even lesser magnitude on behalf of the people they lead.

No - the petulent Peter and those who blindily followed him without council of the Holy Spirit had their twelve. We on the other hand have our twelve and that number includes Paul.

So you say the apostles were not led by the Spirit. Interesting concept, Marvin. I see you despise Peter as Paul did.

It's interesting to me that you would reject Paul while the other apostles clearly accepted him after listening to the Holy Spirit who led them into truth.

I believe that's because you lack the Spirit of God - having never humbled yourself and blieved on Christ's wok at Calvary as your hope of salvation.

Aren't you quite a judge. Tell me what else you see in my heart.

I do know that Paul was chosen by God. I am taking God's Word for it not Paul's word.

Unlike you, apparently, I have the Holy Spirit and have no need to be taught of men.

As I have told you many times before, if you would humble yourself and receive the work of Jesus Christ at Calvary as your only hope of salvation you too could and would receive the Spirit of Christ to lead you.

How do you know Paul was chosen by God? We have no witnesses, so Paul's word can't be established (Biblical truth).

Where does Jesus say receive His work at Calvary? You are making this stuff up.

What did God do with Paul that he could not do with Judas? You've got to be kidding.

Judas? Who said Judas? There were twelve, and they were more than capable of doing what Paul did.

So - Judas name is one of the foundations of the Church?

Nope, read the Bible.

Paul did not come in his own name. That is very clear in scripture.

Have you read Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25, and 2 Timothy 2:8? Who says such a thing?

I do not accept the gospel he preached without questioning it.

Paul preached the same gospel which Jesus preached.

Oh "foolish and slow of heart". You don't accept the scriptures as the Word of God on the matter.

Paul did not fail the Biblical test.

And just what is the test God gave us?

I call on you again to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your hope of salvation before you meet your maker.

Whether you are predestined to do that before you die - I do not know. Time will reveal it.

""The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever............"

I hope to see you on the other side of this life. But it does not, at this time, appear that that will be the case.

You seem to be the living embodiment of the ones who will claim many good works done in Christ's name as their hope of salvation.

He will say to you - unless you repent - "I never knew you."

And just what is the reason God reveals things to us? You conveniently left it out of your quote above.

Deuteronomy 29:29
The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Is this what Paul taught of the things which supposedly were revealed to him? Let me help you out here - NO, NO, NO!

 

[EmSw]

I do not leave the security of my salvation in Paul's hands, nor Mark, Matthew, John, Luke, Jude, Titus, etc. I am entirely dependent upon God for my salvation, for it is of the Lord.

Then you surely believe Jesus' words - 'But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'

 

[GillDouglas]

Then you surely believe Jesus' words - 'But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'

Wayne! This is NOT the gospel (Good News) you are preaching. The gospel is not a summons to work harder to reach God; it's the grand message of how God worked all things together for good, in order to reach us!

Even though the call of Jesus to "take up your cross and follow me" "repent and believe" "deny yourself" and "keep my commandments" are necessary commands that follow the proclamation, they are not in themselves the good news of what Jesus has already accomplished. The Good News is about what our triune God has accomplished for His people: The Father's sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to live perfectly, fulfill the law that Adam and every man since has failed to do, and to die sacrificially, thus satisfying God's wrath against us that we might not face Hell and atoning for our sins. Additionally, raising Him from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. God saves sinners, sinners do not save themselves.

 

[EmSw]

Wayne! This is NOT the gospel (Good News) you are preaching. The gospel is not a summons to work harder to reach God; it's the grand message of how God worked all things together for good, in order to reach us!

Even though the call of Jesus to "take up your cross and follow me" "repent and believe" "deny yourself" and "keep my commandments" are necessary commands that follow the proclamation, they are not in themselves the good news of what Jesus has already accomplished. The Good News is about what our triune God has accomplished for His people: The Father's sending His Son, Jesus Christ, to live perfectly, fulfill the law that Adam and every man since has failed to do, and to die sacrificially, thus satisfying God's wrath against us that we might not face Hell and atoning for our sins. Additionally, raising Him from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. God saves sinners, sinners do not save themselves.

Doug, what does it mean 'if you want to enter life'? Is this not salvation? Isn't salvation all about life?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then you surely believe Jesus' words - 'But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'

Explain "enter into life".