A Reformed Understanding of Salvation

[EmSw]

Not all Israel are of Israel, meaning God only considers them to be of Israel if they are a child of His promise who are born according to God's Spirit and not according to the flesh. So a nation of believers in God's promises within a nation of those who did not believe. Those who did not believe God, He destroys. Only those called can believe God's promises since everything about them is special and unique, created by God to receive His promises by faith. It is them God foreknew, and since God foreknew them to be His people, they are the ones He saves and no one else.

Romans 11 clearly teaches God does not cast away His people whom He foreknew. And in this case only a few, the 7,000 where then He foreknew.

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And so then a truism, God never casts away His people whom He foreknew!
True back then and true today.

All the tribes of Israel were from Isaac, thus children of promise. Yet, not all the tribes of Israel were saved. What a mess you have.

 

[sdowney717]

All the tribes of Israel were from Isaac, thus children of promise. Yet, not all the tribes of Israel were saved. What a mess you have.

Your really flatlining there, don't like Pauline doctrine.
Salvation is of an individual calling in New or Old covenant, and entirely dependent on God's individual mercy.

Exodus 33:19New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

 

[EmSw]

Your really flatlining there, don't like Pauline doctrine.
Salvation is of an individual calling in New or Old covenant, and entirely dependent on God's individual mercy.

Exodus 33:19New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Paul took this verse completely out of context. God was not talking of salvation at all. Let's see what God actually said.

Exodus 33
12 Then Moses said to the Lord, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people.’ But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.’
13 Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.”
14 And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”
15 Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here.
16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”
17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

The children of Israel were a people of grace. It is not exclusive to the NT. Being a people of grace, we find they kept the law and did works. They were under the law and grace. Grace did not 'cancel' the law, and the law did not 'cancel' grace; they 'worked' together. Who knows why Paul separated them.

The whole nation of Israel found grace in God's sight. And because Moses found grace in God's sight, God did what Moses asked, that is, go with them. Moses then asked to God to show His glory. Please notice what God told Moses, 'I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'

What we are told of God's grace being shown to Moses, Paul took it out of context to mean something else. Nothing at all is said of anyone's salvation. It says nothing about 'So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Romans 9:16). Who knows why Paul added this.

Do you remember what Paul wrote about grace?

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

What in the world did he mean by this? The children of Israel were under the law and it was still grace. Why did Paul add this? He didn't know what the OT said. Paul had no business adding to God's word.

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Paul adds to the word of God, of which God says we are not to do. What is ironic is that what Paul added was to keep people from keeping the commandments of God. You need to do your own studying of God's word, sdowney. Paul is leading you down the path of disobedience to God's very word. Either commit your salvation to God, or to Paul's unwise words.

sdowney, I would advise you to read the OT yourself, instead of relying on someone else 'telling' you what it says.

 

[Late Apex]

I understand that this is what you believe, however, it doesn't answer the question. When God finished creation He said it was very good and yet Adam sinned. If man is totally depraved then Adam had to be also, yet God said it was very good.

God declared this BEFORE Adam sinned. In a court of law, can I be convicted of theft if I've never stolen or even before I know what theft IS? Remember, the tree Adam ate at was the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. Adam had no knowledge of sin, he was "good." God even told Him ahead of time the penalty if he did eat of the tree. Once Adam had the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil and once he ate of the tree, he then plunged the entire human race into sin and "death." A Kind begets the same kind. If a dog breeds with another dog, you can be certain it will give birth to a dog. When Adam and Eve sinned, they beget sinners, and ultimately you and me.

Why do you think Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and not from copulation by Joseph and Mary? Because Joseph and Mary could only naturally beget sinners.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul took this verse completely out of context.

Paul was filled with and inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote all that he did. So your comment is anti-biblical.

What Paul wrote is what the Bible SAYS.

 

[Butch5]

God declared this BEFORE Adam sinned. In a court of law, can I be convicted of theft if I've never stolen or even before I know what theft IS? Remember, the tree Adam ate at was the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. Adam had no knowledge of sin, he was "good." God even told Him ahead of time the penalty if he did eat of the tree. Once Adam had the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil and once he ate of the tree, he then plunged the entire human race into sin and "death." A Kind begets the same kind. If a dog breeds with another dog, you can be certain it will give birth to a dog. When Adam and Eve sinned, they beget sinners, and ultimately you and me.

Why do you think Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and not from copulation by Joseph and Mary? Because Joseph and Mary could only naturally beget sinners.

But, Adam chose to sin before he ate. He didn't gain the knowledge until after he sinned. Adam had the ability to sin at his creation and God still said it was good

 

[Late Apex]

But, Adam chose to sin before he ate. He didn't gain the knowledge until after he sinned. Adam had the ability to sin at his creation and God still said it was good

So it's OK for a judge to find someone guilty of being evil for simply having the ability to commit a crime?

Why was Jesus Christ "tempted" of satan? Was it for fun and games? Was Jesus Christ good before He was temped to sin?

Hebrew 4:
[15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[EmSw]

Paul was filled with and inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote all that he did. So your comment is anti-biblical.

What Paul wrote is what the Bible SAYS.

Since Paul said it, I am going to say - I am filled with and inspired by the Holy Spirit when I write anything. Are you going to believe man or Jesus?

 

[EmSw]

So it's OK for a judge to find someone guilty of being evil before they commit a crime?

This is exactly how predestination works. Do you like how that works?

Why was Jesus Christ "tempted" of satan? Was it for fun and games? Was Jesus Christ good before He was temped to sin?

Do you ever think He was an example for us to follow? Temptation is being tried by evil. When one overcomes the temptation, he then becomes more like Jesus, who did not sin when tempted. When one submits to temptation, then sin is born.

 

[Late Apex]

This is exactly how predestination works. Do you like how that works?

Our SPECIFIC conversation is in regards to ADAM before he did anything wrong. You are barking up the WRONG tree.

 

[EmSw]

Our SPECIFIC conversation is in regards to ADAM before he did anything wrong. You are barking up the WRONG tree.

Was Adam predestined to judgment before he sinned?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since Paul said it, I am going to say - I am filled with and inspired by the Holy Spirit when I write anything. Are you going to believe man or Jesus?

Then just go ahead and throw out the WHOLE Bible, if that's your view. Because all of it was written by human hands.

 

[EmSw]

Then just go ahead and throw out the WHOLE Bible, if that's your view. Because all of it was written by human hands.

I still have Jesus. You have a problem with that?

 

[sdowney717]

Paul took this verse completely out of context. God was not talking of salvation at all. Let's see what God actually said.

Exodus 33
12 Then Moses said to the Lord, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people.’ But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.’
13 Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.”
14 And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”
15 Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here.
16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”
17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”
19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock.
22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.
23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

The children of Israel were a people of grace. It is not exclusive to the NT. Being a people of grace, we find they kept the law and did works. They were under the law and grace. Grace did not 'cancel' the law, and the law did not 'cancel' grace; they 'worked' together. Who knows why Paul separated them.

The whole nation of Israel found grace in God's sight. And because Moses found grace in God's sight, God did what Moses asked, that is, go with them. Moses then asked to God to show His glory. Please notice what God told Moses, 'I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'

What we are told of God's grace being shown to Moses, Paul took it out of context to mean something else. Nothing at all is said of anyone's salvation. It says nothing about 'So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy' (Romans 9:16). Who knows why Paul added this.

Do you remember what Paul wrote about grace?

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

What in the world did he mean by this? The children of Israel were under the law and it was still grace. Why did Paul add this? He didn't know what the OT said. Paul had no business adding to God's word.

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Paul adds to the word of God, of which God says we are not to do. What is ironic is that what Paul added was to keep people from keeping the commandments of God. You need to do your own studying of God's word, sdowney. Paul is leading you down the path of disobedience to God's very word. Either commit your salvation to God, or to Paul's unwise words.

sdowney, I would advise you to read the OT yourself, instead of relying on someone else 'telling' you what it says.

You think Paul is a false apostle then.
Definitely your opinion is a heresy, but Paul also had his detractors and critics in his own day.
Much of the NT is written down by Paul and all scripture is inspired of God, so you have some serious issues about what is scripture. Even Peter tells us about our 'dear beloved brother Paul' in that he writes down things sometimes hard to understand. I don't think Peter would use such words about Paul unless Paul was a truth teller and teacher called of God. Paul also rightly rebukes Peter and this did not turn into a major fight back then inside of the church. How could most of the church back then be deceived.

 

[GillDouglas]

I still have Jesus. You have a problem with that?

A different Jesus than any Christian worships, if you do not believe the complete Bible to be true, as you have clearly demonstrated over and over.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I still have Jesus.

Since Jesus and Paul taught the same things, maybe you really don't.

You have a problem with that?

I have a huge problem with your blatant rejection of Scripture.

From one who spent 3 years with Jesus:
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Pet 3

So, you might as well add Peter to your rejection of men who wrote Scripture.

Peter calls Paul "our dear brother". And says that he wrote "with the wisdom that God gave him".

Then he noted that Paul's writings "contain some things that are hard to understand", and then noted that "ignorant and unstable people distort", along with "the other Scriptures".

All of which is "to their own destruction".

Who do you think Peter is referring to?

 

[EmSw]

You think Paul is a false apostle then.
Definitely your opinion is a heresy, but Paul also had his detractors and critics in his own day.
Much of the NT is written down by Paul and all scripture is inspired of God, so you have some serious issues about what is scripture. Even Peter tells us about our 'dear beloved brother Paul' in that he writes down things sometimes hard to understand. I don't think Peter would use such words about Paul unless Paul was a truth teller and teacher called of God. Paul also rightly rebukes Peter and this did not turn into a major fight back then inside of the church. How could most of the church back then be deceived.

First sdowney, Paul was a self-proclaimed apostle. If Paul was called by Jesus to be an apostle, then surely Jesus would have mentioned it in Revelation. However, we see only TWELVE gates in the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:14
Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Why was Paul missing? Why didn't Jesus acknowledge him? Notice it also says 'names of THE twelve apostles'. Can you name THE twelve apostles? It does't say 'twelve apostles'.

Why do you say it's a heresy? Just because you want to believe Paul? Maybe you should read up on what a heresy is. According to Strong's, followers of Paul are a heretical group. Go ahead, look it up.

As far as what is written in scripture, do you know how many times books have come and gone from the canon? Were the ones removed, inspired of God? Who makes the choice what is inspired? Do you? Do other fallible men? Do you know the OT test to see if a prophet is from God or not? If so, have you used this to test Paul?

Here's one test for you. Did the men with Paul on the road to Damascus hear a voice, or did they not hear a voice? What did Paul say?

 

[EmSw]

A different Jesus than any Christian worships, if you do not believe the complete Bible to be true, as you have clearly demonstrated over and over.

Doug, who decided what would be in the Bible? Maybe you should do some research on the subject. Do you believe the apocrypha is true? It was once part of the Bible. What test would you use to discover if the apocrypha is part of the Bible? Have you used this test for Paul's writings, or do you blindly accept Paul's writings?

I suspect you do not want to know the truth of Paul, as it would destroy your whole belief system if you did not accept Paul's writings.

Let me show what God told us.

Deuteronomy 4
1 And now, Israel, hearken unto the statutes, and unto the judgments which I am teaching you to do, so that ye live, and have gone in, and possessed the land which Jehovah God of your fathers is giving to you.
2 Ye do not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor diminish (take away, withdraw) from it, to keep the commands of Jehovah your God which I am commanding you.

Paul definitely diminished from the word God as He commanded. It is clear, his teachings taught NOT to keep the commands of God which He commanded.

 

[EmSw]

Since Jesus and Paul taught the same things, maybe you really don't.

You are only deceiving yourself if you think they taught the same thing. Jesus never taught 'saved by grace through faith, without works'. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!

I have a huge problem with your blatant rejection of Scripture.

You'll have to take that huge problem with you throughout eternity. All of Asia turned from Paul, therefore, they rejected him also.

From one who spent 3 years with Jesus:
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 2 Pet 3

So, you might as well add Peter to your rejection of men who wrote Scripture.

If only Peter did write the second epistle. Do you know what pseudonymity is?

Peter calls Paul "our dear brother". And says that he wrote "with the wisdom that God gave him".

Then he noted that Paul's writings "contain some things that are hard to understand", and then noted that "ignorant and unstable people distort", along with "the other Scriptures".

All of which is "to their own destruction".

Who do you think Peter is referring to?

If Peter did write the second epistle (which is highly unlikely), he did not acknowledge Paul as an apostle. Besides, you haven't answered whether the men with Paul on the road to Damascus heard a voice or not. What truth did Paul tell us about this episode?

I will ask you as I have asked sdowney and Doug, have you tested Paul's writings to see whether they are from God or not?

 

[Marvin Knox]

.................. However, we see only TWELVE gates in the New Jerusalem......................Why was Paul missing?

Paul is not "missing".

Matthias is "missing".

Matthias was chosen by the other apostle's casting of lots rather than their waiting for the Holy Spirit (as they were instructed by the Lord to do) to lead the Church as He was promised to do when He was given.

Matthias was never heard from again in the scriptures.

Paul on the other hand (chosen directly by and trained by the Lord as is fitting an apostle) wrote most of the apostolic epistles in the Word of God.

Had they waited for the Holy Spirit's leading there would have been a lot less reluctance on the part of the Church to accept Paul when He was revealed (the apostle chosen to replace Judas).

IMO the only reason you do not accept Paul as an apostle is that his teaching is clearly at odds with the false gospel which you preach.