A Realization

[Fish and Bread]

I ponder religious questions a lot, particularly thinking about how they might relate to me and my own spirituality. One thing I've rejected since my earliest years is the concept of anything God doing being automatically ethical, which seems predicated on a basic assumption that might equals right, and I believe that might does not equal right. If God decrees that people should be eternally tormented in hellfire, it does not make it okay simply because he is God and he created us or because he is God and has the power to allow for that sort of thing.

Likewise, these moral systems, these ethical codes that God has given us, or that we have constructed for ourselves, they're essentially an advanced form of control or manipulation, or, at the least, an advanced form of obsessive compulsive disorder that is well-intentionally put forth as divine.

I returned to Christianity a few years ago because for me the imagery is immesely powerful. The trinitarian nature of God, the wonder of creation, the cross, Jesus feeding the multitudes, the parting of the Red Sea, all the wonderful poetry and verse, "Love one another as I have loved you", etc. I love going to a Eucharist on a Saturday night or a Sunday morning, breathing in the incense, singing familar songs, taking the bread and the wine, participating with community in a sense of wonder and awe and mystery.

Ultimately, though, I've struggled to identify by identity as a Christian with my essential rejection of some of the basic premises -- hell, sin as transgression against anything God wants, moral law beyond the basics, oblations and sacrifice, etc. As I spent more time in the faith, I tried to force myself to reshape my worldview, to conform to the fundamentlaly immoral doctrines that were present side by side with the wonderful good ones in Christianity. In communicating with the Catholic Christian God, I felt oppressed more than sustained, damned more than saved. It was only when I could manage to step outside those boundries and what I believed in my heart about God, and to view God very differently, that I could find glimmers of peace in prayer and in sharing.

To me, Christianity is the beginning of something good, the best we have right now religion wise, a step in a process of religious evolution that ultimately should lead elsewhere. I realize now that, though my spirituality is intrinsically typed with the Jesus mythos, with the Christian bible, and with the Christian liturgy and traditions, it is not actually Christian in the same sense of Augustine or Calvin or Luther or any of the Popes. They believed in hell, they did not believe in the goodness of homosexuality, they did not believe that God is love in the same way that I believe God is love; their definition of love was and is fundamentally different from mine. Their definition of words like freedom, likewise, were and are fundamentally different than mine. If their God is the true God, I want no part of that.

It is odd and scary to realize that I am not Christian in the sense of what's put forth in the bible or in tradition or maybe even in the sense that the historical Jesus was Christian. At the same time, though, I'm not sure I ever was. I tried to reconcile what I thought with what the bible set forth and believed I had at some points, but it was a stretch. The more I know of the bible, the more I know of the early Christians who would today be viewed as orthodox; the less it is sustainable to imagine myself as one of them in a strict sense.

I think I have finally come to a conclusion about all this and it's that I am a Christian in the sense of Christianity being my spiritual heritage. I am Christian in the sense of enjoying the rituals and some of the philosophies and so forth. I am Christian in the sense of having a worldview shaped in powerful ways by the Christian mythos. I am Christian in the sense of having a bible, and in enjoying reading it. I am Christian in the sense that when I think of God, I view the face and the image of Jesus. I am Christian in the sense that I will probably be going to church at least semi-regularly until the day I die.

What I am not is Christian in the sense of the Christianity of the ages. I am a new Christian, as different from the old Christians as the early Christians were from the Jews. I am part of Christianity and yet not part. The same, yet different.

I think I probably feel a lot like some of the Unitarians and Universalists felt when they realized the end of their early philosophies. At first, the Unitarians were Christians who believed the bible did not sustain the notion of the trinity, at first the Universalists were Christians who believed that the bible did not sustain the notion of hell. Ultimately, I think the collective subconcious of those groups realized that they simply did not believe in the literal sense of the bible as the direct word of God. Hence, we see the Unitarian Universalists of today as a group that is no longer confessionally Christian, but have Christian roots.

I don't think I can go to where they went in the sense that I feel far too attached to the Christian mythos and don't really have a desire to substitute a variety of mythos in it's place. The UU service I visited years ago featured a pagan prayer to the earth goddess, a hint of Buddhism, a hint of Christianity, etc. It was nice, but I don't think it was for me. I want a familar liturgy and familar prayers and so forth.

Oddly enough, I don't think this realization means I can't be Episcopalian. In fact, this probably puts me more in line with a lot of our bishops than I was before in the sense of my beliefs. That's kind of a funny thing to realize. I think the Episcopal Church is in the birth pangs of a new sort of Christianity, whether they conconciously realize it or not.

So, anyhow, I just wanted to get that off my chest, for what it's worth. I don't know if I technically can keep the Anglican icon according to the rules, so if the moderators feel the need to change me to something else, that's fine with me. I want to be a good CF citizen.

 

[IowaLutheran]

Bless you, Fish and Bread, for your soul-searching post.

Its strange how you posted this at this time because the other day I was thinking how for awhile I really was fascinated by Marcus Borg-style Christianity, but recently I have pretty much shaken that off and have become more comfortable with orthodoxy.

Previously, I believed that I had to have 100% acceptance of doctrine to be an orthodox Christian, so the arguments of Borg appeared logical and attractive to me as an alternative. Now, I have come to the conclusion that my brain will never be 100% convinced that the essentials of Nicene Christianity are true, and that realization has led to my shift back toward orthodoxy. The idea that one's faith must be certain is a fallacy of modern evangelical protestantism that I have fallen into; now that I have recognized that, I am more comfortable with orthodox Christianity.

I don't know if that makes sense but it is where my journey has taken me. Yours has taken you elsewhere. As far as I am concerned, you are still a Christian.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Bless you, Fish and Bread, for your soul-searching post.

Thank you.

 

[gtsecc]

Justice gets its essence from God.
What ever God wants to do is justice.
You can't get at it any other way.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Justice gets its essence from God.
What ever God wants to do is justice.
You can't get at it any other way.

I had a discussion about that with a Roman Catholic priest recently, actually. He raised the point you made in more elaborate detail. I understood why he felt that way, but what it made me realize is that I don't believe in justice in the traditional sense Christians understand justice. It was an epiphany of sorts.

It really came home when we talked about prisions and he made the point, as a way of illustrated by analogy the traditional view of divine justice, that we don't just imprision people to keep society safe and deter future criminals, we do it out of a sense of justice. I've never agreed with justice in the sense he meant it in. I've always felt like if we could somehow prevent people from committing crimes again and at the same time disuade future criminals, I'd have no problem with not sending people to jail. The reason I support jail sentences is because it keeps criminals off the streets, provides them with negative reinforcement, and gives potential criminals something to ponder (ie "If I commit a crime, I might go to jail, maybe I'd better not"). This concept of justice as retribution I don't buy into. Never have, really, when I think back on it, though I haven't always realized that I haven't bought into it. Justice as retribution is basically just vengence, and to me vengence has no place as an instrument of civilized society, or as an instrument of God, for that matter. It's a base thing that appeals to the worst in us, not a Godly thing in the sense of being uplifting and good.

 

[gtsecc]

You can't come up with any sort of system other than might makes right, without a God.
And, then in the end, any system of justice basically comes down to pleasing God or Displeasing God.
By the definition of Justice - if God does it, it is just.

I completely disagree with what you said the RC Preist said.

 

[Fish and Bread]

You can't come up with any sort of system other than might makes right, without a God.

What about love, compassion, acceptance, tolerance, and respect for the human dignity of all persons make right?

 

[gtsecc]

What about love, compassion, acceptance, tolerance, and respect for the human dignity of all persons make right?

Etiquette, manners, but not justice.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Etiquette, manners, but not justice.

As I said, I fundamentally disagree with justice as it's been traditionally defined in Christiandom.

By the way, I'm happy to continue this conversation and start others on this thread, but if the moderators determine that my icon needs to be changed, I'll no longer be allowed to post here in the Christian-only area, so if I don't seem to reply for a couple days, check my user icon, that could be why (And anyone who would like can feel free to private message me, or say hi in the Alehouse, which is open to all).

 

[gtsecc]

As I said, I fundamentally disagree with justice as it's been traditionally defined in Christiandom.

I never said a Christian GOd.
Everyone who thinks about it long enough comes to the conclusion that you can't have justice outside of a God - even Agnostics and Atheists.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I never said a Christian GOd.
Everyone who thinks about it long enough comes to the conclusion that you can't have justice outside of a God - even Agnostics and Atheists.

It all depends on what is meant by justice. Humanists tend to believe that justice is defined as respecting other humans and living in harmony with one another and that it is implicit in the order of things, whether that order comes from God, from humankind, or from a random process of things coming into being.

If justice is defined as punishment for all wrongdoing, then maybe in an ultimate sense only God can meet that out, but I don't believe that sort of justice is, well, justified. I reject it's moral basises.

 

[Wiffey]

I totally get where you are coming from...I've recently done quite a bit of soul searching, touching on similar topics. Justice is an odd concept. The God I believe in is a God of love and mercy, as opposed to an angry God of retribution and recrimination. And I do not envision my God sending people to Hell for eternity for some temporary sins...again, that (IMO) is even harsher than any punishments humans could devise and God is supposed to be better than us. I tend to believe in Grace more than Justice...

But I don't totally discount the possibility of some form of correction/consequences for truly evil people (like Hitler,etc)...

I do totally reject the idea that all non-Christians will suffer forever because they were ignorant about Jesus.

I think Christianity is undergoing some growing pains as our human societies continue to evolve and our ethics evolve as we question the status quo. While it may be trying and difficult, I think it is healthy and, ultimately, God made us smart so we could reason and grow. The only sure thing in life is this...that things change. Why should our understanding of God be frozen at the point of our understanding at the date of, say, the 7th Ecumenical council? For goodness sake, we have grown in leaps and bounds WRT knowledge and scientific discovery since then...are we so afraid that God can't withstand scrutiny? We can be good Christians and live in the 21st Century. We needn't confine ourselves to a millenia old sensibility...because we will go nuts trying to apply the rules to our completely different way of life. Faith can survive and adapt to modernity...but it may require busting out of old paradigms.

I think you are indeed a Christian. Jesus was not afraid to confront the Pharisees and the ossified status quo of His time...we should be able to acknowledge the role of reason and conscience and respect our fellow Christians and acknowledge the reality of their faith even if we do not always agree on specifics.

I wish you all the best on your search for authentic faith.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

I think you are indeed a Christian.

I do, too. Perhaps a 'post-modern' Christian. You are in good company.

 

[Look Homeward Anglican]

"Justice is mine" saith the Lord. I suppose then that whatever ends up happening is ultimately Justice. We can't see it yet, not any of it or the reasons behind it. It is entirely possible that our "through a glass, darkly" vision of everything is somehow serving that ultimate justice that lies beyond our comprehension. I often wonder what justice is. I think that Christianity speaks to me saying "Know that you do not know. Trust in God's mercy and love. Do not worry and do not be afraid." But that is not easy in a world where only 1 out of 5 people on the mean streets is an intellectual, and where justice sometimes means something even darker than what we find in our civilized institutions.
I believe that Jesus was fully God, fully Man, born of the Blessed Virgin, and given to us as a great light and a hope that justice will be something better than what we are capable of imagining. I do not believe He came here to build a big fence to keep people outside or to divide anyone -- but He knew we would do that ourselves, and he still came to save all. All. So my idea of Christianity is also very different than what doctrinal professions state. I am very open to the evolving Church and its changing role. I am encouraged by its message for our times. I don't think you're as far out in left field as you might feel yourself to be.

 

[Thomas2618]

I do not believe He came here to build a big fence to keep people outside or to divide anyone -- but He knew we would do that ourselves, and he still came to save all. All.

Jesus said himself that the way is very narrow. He was very clear. He offered his gift to all, but we must accept that in the way that he laid out.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Jesus said himself that the way is very narrow. He was very clear.

That's the biblical vision, but it's a vision I don't accept. I think in doing that, it may put me outside many historical markers of Christianity, even though I at my core see God through the stories of Jesus and the traditions which grew out of them. I see the bible and historical Christianity as insightfully, but fallibly on several key points, pointing to a moral truth (Which may or may not relate to God) yet to be revealed.

It's kind a tough thing to admit, even to myself. I sort of came into Christianity feeling that way and was tugged into orthodoxy, only to finally realize that I was correct in the first place. Kind of full circle, so to speak. Yet, I feel like in admitting it to myself, a weight has been lifted off my shoulders. "The truth shall set ye free" and this is the truth about how I feel.

 

[Look Homeward Anglican]

Jesus said himself that the way is very narrow. He was very clear. He offered his gift to all, but we must accept that in the way that he laid out.

That is true. But which is the narrow gate? What did he lay out? Love. Do not cast the first stone. Go, and sin no more. Forgive. Sacrifice. Was the sacrifice of Jesus only to win some of mankind the chance to make a dubious choice, or was the prize something larger? I just wonder.

 

[Inside Edge]

I don't think you're as far out in left field as you might feel yourself to be.

No kidding. F&B: I hope there's no pride motivation when you label yourself outside the box, because in my experience, you're just not that different I've heard homilies in church very similar to what you've posted. Maybe you ought to just come up to Vancouver so you can feel like one of the pack for a change!

Jesus said himself that the way is very narrow. He was very clear

He was, was he? How so?

Now, if the way is narrow, and there is 2 billion (give or take) old-style Christians...and 2 billion (give or take) long-gone old-style Christians...

...well, that must be one very wide narrow path.

 

[Fish and Bread]

No kidding. F&B: I hope there's no pride motivation when you label yourself outside the box, because in my experience, you're just not that different I've heard homilies in church very similar to what you've posted. Maybe you ought to just come up to Vancouver so you can feel like one of the pack for a change!

I think maybe it's a combination of my ultra-conservative traditionalist relatives, a right-leaning (by Anglican standards) forum, and my right-leaning (by Episcopalian standards) parish that make my comments seem really out of left-field to me. I've had exposure to progressive Christianity, obviously, but not on an everyday level where I really internalize it -- an occasional book or random visit to a parish here or there.

 

[scraparcs]

I ponder religious questions a lot, particularly thinking about how they might relate to me and my own spirituality. One thing I've rejected since my earliest years is the concept of anything God doing being automatically ethical, which seems predicated on a basic assumption that might equals right, and I believe that might does not equal right. If God decrees that people should be eternally tormented in hellfire, it does not make it okay simply because he is God and he created us or because he is God and has the power to allow for that sort of thing.

Likewise, these moral systems, these ethical codes that God has given us, or that we have constructed for ourselves, they're essentially an advanced form of control or manipulation, or, at the least, an advanced form of obsessive compulsive disorder that is well-intentionally put forth as divine.

Just because I might have morally really screwed things up doesn't mean God has done the same.

God may be right and humans have screwed up God's moral codes.