A Realization

[Colabomb]

Maybe the reason we sometimes feel uncomfortable with the concept of universal salvation is that it's not the way of the world. In this world, people are allowed to suffer, starve, etc.; based on a perceived lack of merit, or because of wrongdoing. Maybe God is beyond that, understands our faults, and loves us for who we are, unconditionally. If we can sometimes be forgiving and sometimes be accepting and sometimes be loving, as weak and as flawed as we are, could not God, who is theoretically perfect, forgive, accept, and love beyond that? A God who demands a pound of flesh, and even eternal torture sometimes, for transgressions is no better than a man.

Or we read the words of the God who says "I will separate the sheep from the goats."

I believe wholeheartedly in the God of Love and Mercy, without Him I am lost. But to ignore the God of Justice, the same all powerful God who extends Mercy, is foolish.


Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


What I want is a sustained vibrant relationship with the God whom I revere as Truth Himself, whether or not I like the Truth.

 

[TomUK]

I believe wholeheartedly in the God of Love and Mercy, without Him I am lost. But to ignore the God of Justice, the same all powerful God who extends Mercy, is foolish. I believe wholeheartedly in the God of Love and Mercy, without Him I am lost. But to ignore the God of Justice, the same all powerful God who extends Mercy, is foolish.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I'm not sure what to ask at this point...

I can't see that you would be one to believe that your faith shouldn't have to move out of its comfort zone at times, could you?

I think it depends what one means when one talks about going outside of our comfort zone. Yes, I think God calls us to go outside of our comfortzone and love the unloveable, to forgive the unforgiveable, and to live in a community of radical tolerance, inclusion, and acceptance. If going outside our comfort zone means believing it's okay that people are going to be burnt to death over and over again in a firey inferno and not allowed to die, just because they have philosophical disagreements with the almighty or fondly remember their pre-martial fling with their first love; I think that's going too far, though. I think there ought to be a limit to what we can accept as moral. And hell crosses that line for me.

 

[Fish and Bread]

It's not Universal Salvation I have a problem with, but rather the view that other religions are equally valid in the sight of God. Where that so, Calvary would have been in vain.

Not really. Jesus would still be our way, our truth, and our light and be for us the image of the living God. The mythos of death and new life as demonstrated on the stage of the Roman province of Israel so many years ago would still be important to our faith and understanding. That people might come to relationship with God in different ways makes our way no less real or valid. It simply shows us that the love of God is all-encompassing and can reach beyond our cultural worldview and manifest itself in many different forms.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Or we read the words of the God who says "I will separate the sheep from the goats."

I don't believe there are any goats. We're all made in the image and likeness of God and will be drawn into his perfect love.

I believe wholeheartedly in the God of Love and Mercy, without Him I am lost. But to ignore the God of Justice, the same all powerful God who extends Mercy, is foolish.


Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.


What I want is a sustained vibrant relationship with the God whom I revere as Truth Himself, whether or not I like the Truth.

Honestly, I hear that a lot from conservative religious. If we truly value truth above love, than to me that could be taken as a form of idoltry. Truth is just clinical facts. Love is transcendant. Something being true doesn't always made it good or transcendant, but love is always good and transcendant. I believe God is love, which is why I don't believe in all of the bible.

 

[Wiffey]

Love is absolutely the highest value. And I expect that God can experience and project love in a way that human beings cannot even begin to imagine.

Personally, I feel that the idea of of eternal vengeance and Hell stems from the human tendency to project human feelings and motivations onto God. We anthropomorphize God and attribute our own shortcomings onto the Divine. Hence you see God behaving in odd ways: jealous, vengeful, angry...in short, acting like us.

While I believe that Scripture contains truth and is valuable, (and I think the writers were inspired by God) I recognize that the writers were human and may have let their own viewpoints color their writings. Luckily I don't need to believe that the Bible is perfect or totally inerrant in order to believe in the Divinity of Christ.

The Jesus I worship embodies mercy and forgiveness and love in a way that transcends human pettiness and vengeance.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Love is absolutely the highest value. And I expect that God can experience and project love in a way that human beings cannot even begin to imagine.

Personally, I feel that the idea of of eternal vengeance and Hell stems from the human tendency to project human feelings and motivations onto God. We anthropomorphize God and attribute our own shortcomings onto the Divine. Hence you see God behaving in odd ways: jealous, vengeful, angry...in short, acting like us.

While I believe that Scripture contains truth and is valuable, (and I think the writers were inspired by God) I recognize that the writers were human and may have let their own viewpoints color their writings. Luckily I don't need to believe that the Bible is perfect or totally inerrant in order to believe in the Divinity of Christ.

The Jesus I worship embodies mercy and forgiveness and love in a way that transcends human pettiness and vengeance.

Excellent post. I'm curious, how do you reconcile all of the references Jesus makes in the Gospel for hell and wrath with those not being attributes of God and Jesus being God? I'm beginning to see trinitarianism as more of a metaphor than literal percisely because I have trouble reonciling the notions with each other. Certainly, because could be putting words into Jesus' mouth, but that many, that soon? It doesn't seem entirely plausible to me.

 

[Wiffey]

I'm not totally sure...mercifully, I think I have to love God more than I have to be totally correct. I count a lot on grace, LOL!

I think that the incarnation (which is, of course, a mystery too profound for adequate explanation) puts a human face on God...but interestingly gives us a being (Christ) who is both fully human and fully Divine, with all of the emotions and seeming contradictions that it entails.

I'm not a theologian, so I cannot speculate more.

All I know is that I believe God to be more forgiving and loving and merciful than any mere human mortal...and that leaves me with some deep questions about the concept of eternal wrath. Why would our good and loving Lord condemn poor, limited and confused humans for their inability to get things right? He knows (as the author of our being) our weakness and stupidity. Do we need correction? Yes. Do we deserve eternal torment for temporal foolishness? If I as a human say no, I can only assume that God (who is far more forgiving than I) has the capacity to forgive as well. (But there goes another human anthropomorphizing God!).

 

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Not really. Jesus would still be our way, our truth, and our light and be for us the image of the living God. The mythos of death and new life as demonstrated on the stage of the Roman province of Israel so many years ago would still be important to our faith and understanding. That people might come to relationship with God in different ways makes our way no less real or valid. It simply shows us that the love of God is all-encompassing and can reach beyond our cultural worldview and manifest itself in many different forms.

Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life. Not merely "ours", those of other religions who will be saved are saved despite their errors, not because of them.

 

[CSMR]

The God I believe in is a God of love and mercy, as opposed to an angry God of retribution and recrimination. And I do not envision my God sending people to Hell for eternity for some temporary sins...again, that (IMO) is even harsher than any punishments humans could devise and God is supposed to be better than us. I tend to believe in Grace more than Justice...

But I don't totally discount the possibility of some form of correction/consequences for truly evil people (like Hitler,etc)...

If there is mercy, there has to be judgement, otherwise mercy is not mercy. The love of God calls us to repentance, that is to God's justice, to know that we do not respond to God; whereas the justice of God points to the mercy of God in showing our need.

I do totally reject the idea that all non-Christians will suffer forever because they were ignorant about Jesus.

They probably suffer very little on account of it if they are indeed non-Christians. But it is the worst position of all to reject both justice and mercy and to live apart from God. It seems that you yourself have done this when you put yourself above "truly evil people like Hitler".

Eternal suffering is a wrong notion; if that is what you are arguing against specifically then I agree.

I think you are indeed a Christian.

Perhaps you are treating this word lightly because you don't know what it means and how it is necessary for salvation? What gives you the boldness to call another person a Christian?

 

[CSMR]

My faith is a belief in something tangible, just as I have faith in the chair I'm sitting in.

But according to Hebrews "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

 

[CSMR]

Situations have to change in order for God's Kingdom to come fully. Things cannot possibly stay the way they are. People, in response to God's love, and in the desire to do his will, help God to bring justice to the earth; to the oppressed, the unloved, and to the undefended.

People don't help God. God may in his mercy work this mercy through our actions but that does not mean that God depends on us because God can work through any of our actions; otherwise mercy would be a matter of works.

 

[CSMR]

I like to think of myself as a kind person and a good enough person who honestly loves others and wants fairness for all people and forbearance of our many differences. Sometimes this gives me the impression that, by such virtue, I am capable of knowing what is right from what is not right.

It is good that you have been led to identify this tendency (which ultimately we all have). May we be led to repentance!

 

[CSMR]

God's priorities do not change; but how we understand his priorities can change.

That is why Christianity, as a response to the grace of God, can and should 'evolve' over time, in my view.

Misunderstandings change throughout time. But Christianity does not change; nor should it, because there is only one gospel for the world, which does not change.

 

[CSMR]

Personally, I feel that the idea of of eternal vengeance and Hell stems from the human tendency to project human feelings and motivations onto God. We anthropomorphize God and attribute our own shortcomings onto the Divine. Hence you see God behaving in odd ways: jealous, vengeful, angry...in short, acting like us.

Excellent post.

Fish and Bread, I replied to your post on your blog just now, so I won't do it again. I basically considered that you had an anthopomorphized view of the Christian God that you rejected, but without rejecting the basic idea of an anthopormorphic God, and that you should realize that the proper interpreation of the Christian God is not anthopormorphic. You are interpreting theology basically as if it were descriptions of an emprical person who is called God. That is not a proper way to go about thinking about the statements God is almighty, God is good, God is merciful, God judges, etc..

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Misunderstandings change throughout time. But Christianity does not change; nor should it, because there is only one gospel for the world, which does not change.

I would never propose that the gospel itself ever changes.

I would argue that the religion (i.e. Christianity) manifested by believers who are attempting to live out their faith by studying and interpreting Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit, and experiencing God in their own distinctive culture and context, can change over time, and that things revealed to us through the sciences can and should be incorporated into our world view. Questioning the conclusions arrived at by the early Church is entirely appropriate, in my opinion. This is what I mean when I say that Christianity can change. I am not advocating throwing away the teachings of the early church and replacing them with all new teachings. All I am saying is that the way people view God (and the way they view the gospel, even though it doesn't change), changes as civilisation changes. I don't understand how some people can pretend that nothing has changed since the days of the early church. I feel that God has accomplished lots of wonderful changes, enlightening his people all the time. I don't think it is arrogant to say that some people today have a deeper insight into human nature and the nature of spiritual things than they used to.

You state that misunderstandings change throughout time. This is the same thing as I said earlier, that understandings change over time.


*runs away to avoid the backlash of this post*

 

[artrx]

I would never propose that the gospel itself ever changes.

I would argue that the religion (i.e. Christianity) manifested by believers who are attempting to live out their faith by studying and interpreting Scripture, guided by the Holy Spirit, and experiencing God in their own distinctive culture and context, can change over time, and that things revealed to us through the sciences can and should be incorporated into our world view. Questioning the conclusions arrived at by the early Church is entirely appropriate, in my opinion. This is what I mean when I say that Christianity can change. I am not advocating throwing away the teachings of the early church and replacing them with all new teachings. All I am saying is that the way people view God (and the way they view the gospel, even though it doesn't change), changes as civilisation changes. I don't understand how some people can pretend that nothing has changed since the days of the early church. I feel that God has accomplished lots of wonderful changes, enlightening his people all the time. I don't think it is arrogant to say that some people today have a deeper insight into human nature and the nature of spiritual things than they used to.

You state that misunderstandings change throughout time. This is the same thing as I said earlier, that understandings change over time.


*runs away to avoid the backlash of this post*

Excellent post, Karen (I'll say that before any backlash begins )

 

[Timothy]

Edited as I don't want to get into that argument here.

Timothy

 

[Colabomb]

Misunderstandings change throughout time. But Christianity does not change; nor should it, because there is only one gospel for the world, which does not change.

AMEN AND AMEN!

I don't want a God who changes with my personal opinion.

 

[Inside Edge]

You state that misunderstandings change throughout time. This is the same thing as I said earlier, that understandings change over time.

Right on the money!