A Rapture Causes the Great Tribulation

[keras]

I'm saying the believer is taken away or raptured.

A rapture removal of the Christians to heaven is impossible, as that means Gods plan for the redemption of mankind has failed.
We have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:20. When was/will that be rescinded?

 

[oikonomia]

I'm saying the believer is taken away or raptured.

The believer is taken and a believer is left.

The warning to WATCH is to the disciples who are believers.
If it were automatic that every Christian is taken then there would be no need for them to watch.

Luke 24:42 -
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.

Who is the ones whose Lord will come unannounced and suddenly unexpectedly?
It has to mean the believers who acknowledge Jesus as their Lord.
The unbelieving person does not own Jesus as their Lord.

The unbeliever must watch to receive Jesus as the Lord.
The believer must watch that they are living in His presence habitually for His sudden coming.

Ask yourself now:
Would Jesus warn the unsaved, unregenerated unbeliever to WATCH to be taken is rapture?
This would be like telling them to make a home run before they even get to first base.

Now the BELIEVER has eternal life still even if he does not watch.
But if he does live watching for the Lord to come at any time - IN ADDITION to the GIFT of eternal life
he receives the REWARD of early rapture.

Is it not true that some Christians in principle are saved and rewarded and other Christians may be saved but suffer loss?


FIrst Cor. 3:14,15 -
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

You see in principle we who are Christians can be:

SAVED and REWARDED
or
SAVED but SUFFER some kind of LOSS

 

[oikonomia]

A rapture removal of the Christians to heaven is impossible, as that means Gods plan for the redemption of mankind has failed.
We have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:20. When was/will that be rescinded?

It has not "failed" if the overcoming Christians raptured to heaven RETURN to EARTH as Christ's vanquishing bridal army.

And in Revelation 19 that is what is seen. The ones worthy to attend the marriage supper of the Lamb
afterwards come down with Christ to Armageddon as His bridal army.

1.) Here they are present in Heaven for a marriage celebration:

Revelation 19:6-8 -
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.

2.) And here they are, the same group, coming down with Christ for victory not defeat.

And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.


1,) What qualifies them to be ready for the marriage feast? Their righteous deeds symbolized by wedding garments
of fine linen bright and clean.

Revelation 19:8 -
And it was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.

2.) What qualifies them to be Christ's accompanying army? The same thing - a fighting armor symbolized being bright and clean.


Revelation 19:14 -
And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Here their reward to attend the marriage dinner is also their reward to accompany the Victor Christ coming down
with Him from Heaven.

 

[oikonomia]

A rapture removal of the Christians to heaven is impossible, as that means Gods plan for the redemption of mankind has failed.
We have the Great Commission, Matthew 28:20. When was/will that be rescinded?

You're the guy who likes to play verbal hardball.
I remember you poisoning the well of discussion.

NOW if you can remain civil I'll engage your arguments.

The time for the great commission is "until the consummation of the age."

Matt. 28:19,20 -

Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age.

Surely at least 3.5 years before His second coming to touch with His feet the earth is the "consummation of [this] age".

Therefore, I have no reason to think RAPTURE of a remnant of WATCHING Christians violates or nullifies
the great commission of Matthew 28:20.

 

[keras]

It has not "failed" if the overcoming Christians raptured to heaven RETURN to EARTH as Christ's vanquishing bridal army.

Gods plan for the redemption of mankind. will have failed if He has to remove His faithful peoples.
As for accompanying Jesus at His Return, that is so unbelievable as to be beyond science fiction.

Have you, or any 'rapture to heaven' believer, really thought this theory through? It means that millions have to be made into spiritual beings before any testing or Judgment. It contradicts much of the Prophetic Word and is really just a joke, as arguments rage over whether the rapture will be pre, mid or post the Great Tribulation.

The Bible is clear on what God wants of us, To be His people in the Holy Land displaying His glory and some as His priests; Isaiah 66:20-21

 

[oikonomia]

Gods plan for the redemption of mankind. will have failed if He has to remove His faithful peoples.

No it is not. For reasons which I guess you didn't read or didn't understand.
Was the catching away of Enoch a defeat for God? No.
Was the catching away of Elijah a defeat for God? No.
Was the ascenscion of Jesus a defeat for God? No.

Does the rejoicing of the overcomers in heaven after being caught up to God and to His throne sound like a
defeat for God? No. Let us look.

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:10,11)

They sing that "Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God . . . "

Obviously, this is triumphant rather than thier defeat.

As for accompanying Jesus at His Return, that is so unbelievable as to be beyond science fiction.

No it is not Sci Fi. It is what Revelation 19 plainly shows in spite of your unbelief.

I tried to show everyone that:
1.) The man-child raptured is not the entire church but like a remnant army.
See Gideon's small army of 300 vigilant warriors as an example in Judges chapter 7 please.

2.) The Bright Woman mother represents the weaker vessel.
The Man-child she gives birth to represents the stronger minority component within her.

3.) The principle of a smaller unit of stronger fighters in the spiritual warfare in Israel and the church
is often seen in Scripture and in history.

4.) What the stronger sub-component does is for the benefit of the larger sub-normal majority.

5.) Revelation chapter 2 and 3 give ample heads up that SOME in the churches will be those who overcome.
See Rev. 2:7, 11,17, 26, 3:5,12, 21

Deal with this and don't ignore this.

Have you, or any 'rapture to heaven' believer, really thought this theory through?

Have you looked at what it written in the Bible as shown above?
My way is not to simply brush aside the evidence clearly seen above.

It means that millions have to be made into spiritual beings before any testing or Judgment.

I don't know how many times I have to point out to you that the caught away ones are at first a minority.

It is right here when it indicates of PAIRS of Christians, one is taken for maturity and one is left for immaturity.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

Do you not agree that a mature Christian is one found constantly abiding in the Lord so as to
be ready ?

Why can you not see maturity here verses immaturity ?

As for the Christians left because of neglecting the watching, I am sure the Great Tribulation will be a factor
to also get THEM mature. By the time of the end of the GT they are ripe for Harvest.

Revelation 14:15,16 -
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, Send forth Your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come because the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And He who sat on the cloud thrust His sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Firstfruits and Man-child are pre-great tribulation raptures.
Harvest is end of great tribulation rapture.

It contradicts much of the Prophetic Word and is really just a joke, as arguments rage over whether the rapture will be pre, mid or post the Great Tribulation.

The Bible is clear on what God wants of us, To be His people in the Holy Land displaying His glory and some as His priests; Isaiah 66:20-21

The Bible is clear that the reaping of the crop of the believers is based on RIPENESS.
That is in the perview of God what HE deems is maturity, ripeness, and readiness to be caught up in reaping.

Mark 4:26-29 -
And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth,
And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and lengthens — how, he does not know.

The earth bears fruit by itself: first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear.
But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come.

Let Jesus Christ determine what this readiness for rapture entails.
You know that He desires not only to be imparted into people but to take shape and be formed in them.

Galatians 4:19 -
My children, with whom I travail again in birth until Christ is formed in you,

 

[oikonomia]

Gods plan for the redemption of mankind. will have failed if He has to remove His faithful peoples.

The church is "taken up in glory" as a vbvindication that she has been a manifestation of godliness - Gad manifest in the flesh.

Now the entire Body may not be taken up at the same time. But eventaully "we all arrive" and the house of God is "taken up."
And here is the proof that the church is taken up in glory:

First Timothy 3:16,17 -
But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.

And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh, / Justified in the Spirit, / Seen by angels, / Preached among the nations, / Believed on in the world, / Taken up in glory.

Please notice that "taken up in glory" comes AFTER "believed on in the world."
This proves that to be taken up in rapture comes after the great commission.

Jesus as the Head of the church was taken up in glory BEFORE being believed on in the world though
wide spread gospel preaching. So this being taken up in glory after being preached to the world and believed
refers to the Body, the church. If not all at one time they are taken EVENTUALLY all are taken up.

Godliness is of two stages:

1.) God being manifest in the flesh in the Lord Jesus.

2.) God beling manifest in the flesh in His church which is His house.
After all the church is to be the pillar and base of the truth.

 

[Laodicean60]

A rapture removal of the Christians to heaven is impossible

No it is not. For reasons which I guess you didn't read or didn't understand.

We can keep beating a dead horse but does anyone TRUELY know? Sadly it's our own interpretations of scripture and we are not willing to give that up. All we can do is watch. Peace

 

[oikonomia]

We can keep beating a dead horse but does anyone TRUELY know? Sadly it's our own interpretations of scripture and we are not willing to give that up. All we can do is watch. Peace

Okay, let's take up that point just for argument's sake.

Whether or not there is Rapture, isn't it good that Christians LIVE as if Jesus could come at any moment for them?
I say it is still excellent for believers to LIVE unto His unexpected arrival.

Which servant of Christ do you think is likely to be more vigilant? - the one who says "My master delays His coming" or he who says
"At an hour I do not expect my Master may come"

I think Jesus leans toward the latter being the better attitute.

Matthew 24:45-50 -
Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time?
Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions.

But if that evil slave says in his heart, My master delays,
And begins to beat his fellow slaves and eats and drinks with the drunken,
The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

 

[oikonomia]

We can keep beating a dead horse but does anyone TRUELY know? Sadly it's our own interpretations of scripture and we are not willing to give that up. All we can do is watch. Peace

Have you learned though, that every time we turn ourhearts toward the Lord Jesus we are immediatelly "caught away" from negative things?

I expience little "mini raptures" during the day from temptations.

When I whisper "Lord Jesus I love You" I receive a flowing in of grace.
If I call on His name " O Lord Jesus, Lord Jesus." I am instantly empowered .
When I even my heart towards the Lord JesusI receive empowering grace rescueing me from temptation.

Proverbs 18:10 - The name of Jehovah is a strong tower; / The righteous man runs into it and is safe.

The Lord promised us all "the way out" from DAiLY oppressing trials, temptations, etc.
I think the "a way" is the SAME for all Christians. It is to turn our hearts toward Him to "take" Him.

I think the way is simply Christ Himself, Christ, Christ always, Christ immediately.

First Cor. 10:13 - No temptation has taken you except that which is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow that you be tempted beyond what you are able, but will, with the temptation, also make the way out, that you may be able to endure it.

 

[Laodicean60]

for argument's sake.

No, thank you.

isn't it good that Christians LIVE as if Jesus could come at any moment

Yes. Peace Out

 

[oikonomia]

No, thank you.

Yes. Peace Out

Peace through !

 

[oikonomia]

An opinionated dream.
Satan will be evicted from heaven because his time is up. And he knows it! Revelation 12:12, Luke 10:18

The idea that people will be taken to heaven at that time, is wrong; proved by how he pursues the 'woman', who represents the faithful Christian peoples, who will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days during the great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.
Those Christians who failed in trusting the Lord for their safety, Daniel 11:32, will remain and face persecution. Revelation 12:17

It is surprising how you miss what is said in Revelation.

The devil persues "the rest of her seed."
Rev. 12:17a - And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, . . .

Why is it "the rest of her seed?" Obviously it is the remainder seed because the corporate man-child is her seed raptured away.

What about her seed which was raptured away? They are the ones the beast antichrist blasphemes who are in heaven.

Revelation 13:5,6 -
And there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and authority was given to him to act for forty-two months. And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, which tabernacle in heaven.

So antichrist persecutes the woman's seed left on earth for 42 months.
And antichrist blasphemes those who are in heaven who were raptured away.

Perhaps he will say "We're glad that they are no longer on earth. We didn't want them here anyway. Now let's deal with the remainder of them still here!"

At any rate you seem to be missing the facts as how they are told us in Revelation 12,13.

 

[oikonomia]

It is God who takes up His Great Power and decides to give the order for Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth.

You should see how God and His people coordinate TOGETHER. God does not do all unilaterally WITHOUT the echoing cooperation of His
people.

For the angels to REACT to the rapture of the man-child remnant in no conceivable way undercuts the great authroity of God.
Go back and read of Joshua's victories in cooperation and coordination with God.

Satan, knowing then that his time is short has great wrath. "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth". The third woe.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

That is right.
The "short time" is three and one half years. The "short time" is 42 months. The "short time" is 1,260 days.

And this "short time" must commence soon or around the same time the corporate man-child is caught up to
God and to His throne.

We cannot know the date. But we can determine the rough startng point of this "short time."

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5,6)

Even if you disagree please read with an open heart especially the passages from the Bible. I will do likewise with your posts.

REVELATION 12:12 KJV Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the...

There will be rejoicing in heaven over Satan losing his grip over the nations. Revelation 11:14-19 gives the account from the heaven side and them in heaven. They praise God for putting into motion the ending to Satan's involvement over the nations.

Yes. And this rejoicing is FROM the raptured "brothers."

Rev. 12:10,11a -
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb . . .

Of course angelic rejoicingis there also.However angels and redeemed humans are not "brothers" of one another.
They may be fellow servants. (Rev. 22:9)
But they are not fellow "brothers."

A singing version of Revelation 11 verses -

Revelation 11.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [in Revelation 12:12]

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Thankyou.

 

[keras]

It is surprising how you miss what is said in Revelation.

The devil persues "the rest of her seed."
Rev. 12:17a - And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, . . .

Why is it "the rest of her seed?" Obviously it is the remainder seed because the corporate man-child is her seed raptured away.

What about her seed which was raptured away? They are the ones the beast antichrist blasphemes who are in heaven.

It is shocking how you make the Prophesies mean something they do not say.
Revelation 12 only mentions heaven as the place where Satan is evicted from. Never as the destination of the faithful Christians. They are taken to a place of safety on earth. Some think that place will be Petra in Jordan, but that is far too close; within artillery shot of Jerusalem.
That it is on earth is proved by how Satan sends an army after them, Revelation 12:15-16.....the earth came to her rescue and swallowed them up.

It will be, after all; a kind of a rapture, as those Christians who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, will be flown to a distant place and kept safe for the 3 1/2 year period of the Great Tribulation. And when Jesus Returns, they will be gathered by the angels and transported back to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:17

The rest of her seed, Revelation 12:16, are those Christians who did agree to a 7 year treaty with the leader of the One World Govt. Daniel 9:27
Many of them will be killed for their faith, however, they will comprise most of the GT martyrs, who Jesus will bring back to mortal life at His Return. Revelation 20:4

 

[Douggg]

The "short time" is three and one half years. The "short time" is 42 months. The "short time" is 1,260 days.

And this "short time" must commence soon or around the same time the corporate man-child is caught up to
God and to His throne.

We cannot know the date. But we can determine the rough startng point of this "short time."

The first five verses of Revelation 12 are visual portrayal of historic biblical events to identify the woman in the rest of Revelation 12 as Israel, stemming from a dream Joseph had in Genesis, and the four gospels about Jesus, and Acts1 when he was caught up to heaven.

Revelation 12:6-17 are the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 determined upon Jerusalem and Daniel's people - the Jews - making up Israel, the woman.

One of the reasons we can know those verses are about the 7 years is because of the description of the dragon - i.e. the crowns/no crowns on the heads and horns compared to the other two visuals in Revelation 13 and 17. Heads and horns.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Heads and horns....

In Revelation 12, with 7 years to go before the mystery of God spoken of by the mighty angel in Revelation 10:7 is finished - the heads have crowns, the horns do not.

What that means is that at the start of the 7 years, the seven kings of the prophecy of the seven kings in Revelation 17:10 is complete, i.e. king 7 has come to power - the little horn person.

In Revelation 12, none of the horns have crowns, because the little horn person has not transformed into the beast-king at that point.

Compared to Revelation 13, which with 42 months left to go, the horns have crowns, because the ten kings rule with the beast-king, Revelation 17:12, for "one hour", an expression for the 42 months.

The little horn has become the beast-king in Revelation 13, king eight of Revelation 17:11.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So in it's simplest terms, Revelation 12, verses are....

1. verses 1-5 are a visual portrayal centered on the historic biblical events about the woman Israel and Jesus the man-child she gave birth to.

2. verse 6-17 are the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 pertaining to Israel and the Jews.
......a. the 1260 days first half
......b. the time, times, half time of the second half

 

[oikonomia]

It is shocking how you make the Prophesies mean something they do not say.
Revelation 12 only mentions heaven as the place where Satan is evicted from.

No, the heavens is also mentioned in this regard- those who dwell in the heavens should be glad but those on earth should woe.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Revelation 12:12)

Who else could the voice be speaking about except the "brothers" who are the "they" who have just overcome to be "caught up to God and to His throne" (v. 5)?

Never as the destination of the faithful Christians.

Never as a PERMENENT destination it is mentioned.
But as a stopping place of the remnant on their way to be with Christ in His descending victory.

And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev. 19:14)

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14)

They are taken to a place of safety on earth. Some think that place will be Petra in Jordan, but that is far too close; within artillery shot of Jerusalem. That it is on earth is proved by how Satan sends an army after them, Revelation 12:15-16.....the earth came to her rescue and swallowed them up.

You are talking about "the REST of her seed" who are left on earth to pass through the great tribulation.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:16,17)

What about the other portion of her seed? Where then are they?
They have been raptured up "to God and to His throne" (v.5).

And that portion of the woman's seed is rejoicing in heaven because for them "the kingdom" has come.

Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. (Rev. 12:10)

It will be, after all; a kind of a rapture, as those Christians who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, will be flown to a distant place and kept safe for the 3 1/2 year period of the Great Tribulation. And when Jesus Returns, they will be gathered by the angels and transported back to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:17

Daniel 11:32 - And with his smooth words he will cause those who act wickedly toward the covenant to be profane. But the people who know their God will show strength and take action.

This does not mean that some who knew thier God and showed strength BEFORE this terrible time could not be rewarded
with early rapture.

Why should Daniel 11:32 make it impossible that some overcame in times before this time of "Jacob's trouble"?

Revelation 3:10 so promises those who overcome from the church will be rewarded by being kept OUT of the hour of world wide trial.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth.

Besides, Daniel's prophecy there is mostly from the viewpoint of the nation of Israel.

The rest of her seed, Revelation 12:16, are those Christians who did agree to a 7 year treaty with the leader of the One World Govt. Daniel 9:27

That may be true that Christians see what is coming and do not agree. But their being raptured is not simply because the mentally disagree. Rather in Revelation 12 the "they" (man-child) were caught away because "they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (v. 10)

This overcoming and being caught up in Revelation 12 is of saints who at that time need resurrection and raptured because they
died.

However, living at that time overcomers are raptured around that time with them. This is seen as the Firstfruits in heaven in Revelation 14:1-3. And it is seen in those living at that time who are watching and ready uring their normal ay to day duties.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

So you see among those of the past who are "asleep" in Christ - they lived watching and are rewarded.
And at that time many still living and watching are also rewarded.

Whether we live or we die we are the Lord's.

For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself;
For whether we live, we live to the Lord, and whether we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore whether we live or we die, we are the Lord’s.
For Christ died and lived again for this, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. (Romans 14:7-9)

Many of them will be killed for their faith, however, they will comprise most of the GT martyrs, who Jesus will bring back to mortal life at His Return. Revelation 20:4

Some overcome BEFORE the start of the great tribulation. Why that seems unusual to you is puzzling.
And other overcome THROUGH the great tribulation.

Why this should seem bad interpretation to you is mistifying.
Why you would assume that ALL Christians would only be overcoming at ONCE at the SAME TIME . . . is I think not seeing enough
of what the Bible shows us.

Revelation is all incompassing dealing with VARIOUS situations of God's saints.

For example, surely, the saints standing as it were on the sea of glass in chapter 15 are those persecuted believers who
became victors of faith right IN the great tribulation.

And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations! (Rev. 15:2,3)

So you see just because it shows overcomers BEFORE the start of the GT does not mean that there would be no OTHER
such victorious overcomers latter.

 

[Douggg]

No, the heavens is also mentioned in this regard- those who dwell in the heavens should be glad but those on earth should woe.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Revelation 12:12)

Who else could the voice be speaking about except the "brothers" who are the "they" who have just overcome to be "caught up to God and to His throne" (v. 5)?

The brothers in heaven are the rapture/resurrected event Christians, agreed.

But verse five, the man-child caught up is not referring to them, but Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

Some overcome BEFORE the start of the great tribulation. Why that seems unusual to you is puzzling.
And other overcome THROUGH the great tribulation.

As you say there will be many who overcome during the great tribulation - although they missed the raptured/resurrection event.

Revelation 12:10 is speaking specifically about the Jews which make up Israel, the woman in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12, the focus is on the woman Israel throughout chapter.

The 7 years in Revelation 12 are the 7 years 70th week of Daniel 9:27 determined upon Daniel's people the Jews, and Jerusalem (Daniel 9:24).

 

[Douggg]

It is shocking how you make the Prophesies mean something they do not say.
Revelation 12 only mentions heaven as the place where Satan is evicted from. Never as the destination of the faithful Christians. They are taken to a place of safety on earth. Some think that place will be Petra in Jordan, but that is far too close; within artillery shot of Jerusalem.
That it is on earth is proved by how Satan sends an army after them, Revelation 12:15-16.....the earth came to her rescue and swallowed them up.

keras, while you are right about Revelation 12 not containing the rapture/resurrection event, you are misunderstanding the focus of Revelation 12.

The focus is about the woman Israel, and the Jews who make up Israel. Not some replacement nation of Christians from around the world that you are calling Beulah.

In Revelation 12:14-16, the woman fleeing into the wilderness is the Jews in Judea fleeing to the mountains as Jesus said to do in Matthew 24:15-21 when they see the abomination of desolation standing on the temple mount.

That the earth opens and swallows any of the beast king's forces that tries to harm them is referring to supernatural protection that God will use to protect them.

It will be, after all; a kind of a rapture, as those Christians who refused to violate the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, will be flown to a distant place and kept safe for the 3 1/2 year period of the Great Tribulation. And when Jesus Returns, they will be gathered by the angels and transported back to Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thess 4:17

No kind of rapture in Revelation 12. Revelation 12 focus is on the Jews in the latter days who make up the woman Israel.

Daniel 11:32 is historic about the Maccabees at the time of Antiochus IV. The passage is not end times. End times in Daniel 11 begins in verse 36.

Fleeing into the wildness in Revelation 12:14 has nothing to do with violating a covenant, but fleeing when the abomination of desolation is setup on the temple mount.

Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect is referring to the Jews, the house of Israel, and corresponds to Ezekiel 39:27-28. The Jews (Judaism) call the completed return of all the house of Israel back to the land of Israel - the final redemption - and attribute it to the messiah.

What the Jews currently believe is that Jesus is not the messiah. But that will change in Revelation 12:10. Which Revelation 12 the focus is on the Jews in the latter days who make up the woman Israel.

The rest of her seed, Revelation 12:16, are those Christians who did agree to a 7 year treaty with the leader of the One World Govt. Daniel 9:27

The rest of the woman's seed are the Jews who do not flee out of Judea in time and will be persecuted until Jesus returns in Zechariah 14.

The covenant in Daniel 9:27 is the Mt. Sinai covenant. The prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26 who will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-31 will be the little horn person, as he will be perceived by the Jews as the messiah.

There is no One World Government involved. In Daniel 9:26, the little horn person is of the people who destroyed the temple and city back in the first century, the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was a governance over many nations and peoples.

In the end times, the Roman Empire has manifest itself as the EU - a governance over many nations and peoples. The little horn person will be from the EU.

Revelation 12 the focus is on the Jews in the latter days who make up the woman Israel. It is not about a replacement nation of Christians from around the world that you are calling Beulah.

keras, Jesus returns at the end of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27, determined upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24. The focus in upon the Jews in Revelation 12, not upon a replacement nation made up of Christians from around the world you are calling Beulah.

Look at this verse...

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Who called for Jesus's death at the time of the crucifixion? Christians or Jews ?