A quote from an atheist

Not_By_Chance

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I have just read a short quote from Frank Zindler, American Atheist, in a debate with William Craig in which he apparently said this,"The most devastating thing though that biology did to Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a savior. And I submit that puts Jesus, historical or otherwise, into the ranks of the unemployed. I think that evolution is absolutely the death knell of Christianity."

Now personally, I think that the above is nonsense and that the more we have discovered about life and the universe, the more compelling is the argument that there has to be a creator of immense power and intelligence behind all reality. My question though is how do those who try to fit the round peg of the theory of evolution into the square hole of the Biblical history of creation, (which Jesus Himself alluded to in Matthew 19:4 and Mark 10:6) reconcile the two opposing accounts of how things came to be?
 
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alexandriaisburning

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I have just read a short quote from Frank Zindler, American Atheist, in a debate with William Craig in which he apparently said this,"The most devastating thing though that biology did to Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a savior. And I submit that puts Jesus, historical or otherwise, into the ranks of the unemployed. I think that evolution is absolutely the death knell of Christianity."

Now personally, I think that the above is nonsense and that the more we have discovered about life and the universe, the more compelling is the argument that there has to be a creator of immense power and intelligence behind all reality. My question though is how do those who try to fit the round peg of the theory of evolution into the square hole of the Biblical history of creation, (which Jesus Himself alluded to in Matthew 19:4 and Mark 10:6) reconcile the two opposing accounts of how things came to be?

I'm not sure from where the notion that they are "opposing" accounts originates. The only possible contradiction arises if one forces a rendering of the Genesis narratives based on modern historical/critical interpretive biases. If we do not impose this gloss onto the creation narratives, and allow them to speak in their original, intended contexts, there is really no contradiction necessary between the stories of creation and an affirmation of evolutionary theory.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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I read it, but I fail to see any contradiction. Perhaps you could elaborate.
Perhaps you ought to hear what a leading evolutionist has to say on this subject:-
http://creation.com/creation-videos?fileID=BAbpfn9QgGA&utm_media=email&utm_content=gb

And also of course, Jesus referred to man being there from the beginning of creation and not having evolved from some ape-like creature billions of years later. Also, see the verse under my signature. The point is I think, if one reads Genesis the way it is written, it goes to great lengths to emphasise that God is talking about ordinary 24-hour days. There is great danger if one throws out parts of the Bible, just because they happen to disagree with man's current ideas. If you want to get an idea about how little we actually know about our reality, you only have to watch this latest DVD on astronomy, presented by Spike Psarris. They are all excellent and God-honouring presentations, with lots of stunning photographs.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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Perhaps you ought to hear what a leading evolutionist has to say on this subject:-
http://creation.com/creation-videos?fileID=BAbpfn9QgGA&utm_media=email&utm_content=gb

I'm not interested in what leading evolutionists say on the subject. Evolutionists are not theologians (at least not most of them), so are not particularly qualified to speak on religious matters. So my question still remains.

And also of course, Jesus referred to man being there from the beginning of creation and not having evolved from some ape-like creature billions of years later.

That may be, but it is a stretch (IMO) to suggest that Jesus' rehearsal (again, for theological purposes) of the common creation narrative is the same as speaking technically about the precise mechanisms of creation. Such a conclusion presumes that language is always intended literally, and also presumes that the mere mention by Jesus of the existence of Adam is equivalent to a categorical rejection of non-theologically-oriented theories regarding the evolution of the universe. Such broadly-applied presumptions do not make for a very convincing argument.

Also, see the verse under my signature. The point is I think, if one reads Genesis the way it is written, it goes to great lengths to emphasise that God is talking about ordinary 24-hour days.

I don't necessarily disagree that the "days" of Genesis were intended to be read as referring to the common notion of a "day". However, this does not also mean that such a reading requires that we immediately apply a historical/critical lens to such "historical" statements and erect an interpretation that requires a literal/historical rendering. A "literal" day can still result in a non-literal rendering of the narrative if we don't allow our modern historical/critical biases to rule the day.

There is great danger if one throws out parts of the Bible, just because they happen to disagree with man's current ideas.

Indeed, but there is also a danger of blindly applying modern historical/critical biases to the interpretation of text and announcing that the same interpretation is the "clear" and "obvious" interpretation. The ancients who read and wrote the Scriptures did not think about the universe, history, or reality in the same way that we do. So how can we interpret the Scriptures appropriately if we ignore this very basic and elementary principle?
 
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ViaCrucis

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I have just read a short quote from Frank Zindler, American Atheist, in a debate with William Craig in which he apparently said this,"The most devastating thing though that biology did to Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a savior. And I submit that puts Jesus, historical or otherwise, into the ranks of the unemployed. I think that evolution is absolutely the death knell of Christianity."

Zindler demonstrates that he's a very lousy theologian and exegete in this quote. That's about it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hoghead1

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I am sending you my synopsis on the contradictions in Genesis, Alexander.


When we approach the study of Scripture, I think we should be willing to step outside the small box of narration presented within the narrow confines of fundamentalist thinking about the Bible. In so doing, we must cast aside the preexisting bias that everything in Scripture has to be true, that everything happened just the way the Bible says it happened. We should approach Scripture, with an open mind. Maybe it is all dictated by God and inerrant , maybe it isn't. Let us see.



Bearing the above in mind, let us proceed on to the Genesis account of creation. It is readily apparent that it stands in stark contradiction to modern scientific accounts. If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it. But is it? Perhaps there are other possibilities. Let us also explore those. For centuries, solid Bible-believing Christians have had no problem in recognizing the Bible is not an accurate geophysical witness. After all, who believes that the earth is really flat, that everything revolves around the earth, etc.? So I don't see why Genesis should be any exception. Bur wait a sec. Just how did traditional Christianity manage to step out of the fundamentalist box here? Here it is important to consider the writings of the Protestant Reformers, who lived right on the scene, right at the time when science was beginning to serious question the flat earth, etc. Let's take a peak at Calvin, for example. He followed what is called the doctrine of accommodations. Accordingly, our minds are so puny that God often has to talk “baby talk” (Calvin's term) to us, to accommodate his message to our infirmities. He wrote a major commentary on Genesis, and, in his remarks on Gen. 1:6, he emphasized that God is here to accommodate to our weaknesses and therefore, most emphatically, is not here to teach us actual astronomy.



Now, about the to contradictory accounts. It is my position that we must step outside the fundamentalist box and come to the text open-minded. It is my position that there are two contradictory accounts. It is my position we must resist all the fiendish effects created within the narrow confines of the fundamentalist box to unduly smash them together and bludgeon them into one account. The best way to approach a text is to go on the plain reading. Hence, in Gen . 1, first animals are created, the man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. What may or may not be apparent in English translations is that there are two very different literary styles here. Gen. 1, fr example, is sing-songy, very sing-songy. Hence, Haydn wrote a major work titled

“The Creation,” based solely on Gen. 1. Gen,. 2 is narrative and not very singable. If you study the Hebrew here in more detail, we are also dealing with to different authors coming from tow different time periods.



Let's turn to the stated content of the chronologies. As I said, a plain reading shows an obvious contradiction here. And as I said, many a fiendish attempt has been made within the fundamentalist box to smash these together. That is a favorite tactic of mode than one online self-styled apologists and also certain members in this group, no personal insult intended. So let us now go down through a list of the major devious attempts to smash the texts together and why they don't work.



There is the pluperfect theory. Accordingly, all apparent contradictions can be easily explained simply by recognizing that everything in Gen. 2 should be translated in the pluperfect tense, thereby referring right back to one. So the line should read,...So God HAD created the animals,,,” So the problem is simply generated in the reader's mind simply because the English Bible has been mistranslated here. To a lay person, this might look impressive. However, if you know anything at all about Hebrew, this solution immediately falls on its face. There is no, repeat no, pluperfect tense in Hebrew.



There is the two-creation theory. Accordingly, Gen. 1 and 2 refer to two different creations. Gen. 1 describes the total overall creation of the universe. Gen. 2 is purely concerned with what happened in the garden of Eden, with events that happened after the total overall creation. Looks promising. However, what is snot shown or addressed in the fundamentalist box is the fact fact this theory generates treffic problems in accounting for all the personnel involved and, in so doing g, has led to ridiculous results. A good example is the Lilith theory that was widespread among Medieval Christians and Jews. The problem was this: If we are fusing these accounts together, then there is a woman created in Gen. 1, and at the same time as Adam, who is not named, and who obviously exists in addition to Eve. Who is she? Her name is Lilith and she is Adam's first wife. She was domineering and liked riding on top of Adam when they had sex. Adam didn't like this and neither did God, as women are to be submissive. So God gave Adam a second wife, Eve, who at least stayed underneath during sex. Lilith then got mad, ran away, became a witch, and goes around terrorizing children, so that it was common to find a crib with “God save up from Lilith” written on it. Now, unless you believe in the existence of preAdamites, and the fundamentalist box does not and most Christians do not either, then this whole situation is absolutely ridiculous.



There is the latent-chronology theory. Accordingly, the account is written by one author, never mind the literary differences. What he takes as the real chronology is that which is presented in Gen. 1. However, when he gets to Gen. 2, he for some reason, does not work through or explicate that chronology in its true order. Well, by that same token, why not assume his rue chronology is gen. 1 and that Gen. I is just his idea of explicating it out of order, for some reason? See, that strategy backfires. In addition, one wonders why an author would set up his chronology on one page and then on the next explicate it out of order. That sure is an awkward, messy way of explaining yourself.



Now if any of you readers have in mind a better solution, I and other biblical scholars would like to hear it.



Another problem with the Genesis account is that it does not make it clear how God creates. Some will say it definitely means creatio ex nihilo. But God created Adam out of dust, not out of nothing. God created Eve out of Adam's rib, not out of nothing. God creates the adult out of the child, not our of nothing. The opening of the Genesis account is ambiguous here. Maybe god creates out of nothing, but maybe out of some preexistence chaos.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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That may be, but it is a stretch (IMO) to suggest that Jesus' rehearsal (again, for theological purposes) of the common creation narrative is the same as speaking technically about the precise mechanisms of creation. Such a conclusion presumes that language is always intended literally, and also presumes that the mere mention by Jesus of the existence of Adam is equivalent to a categorical rejection of non-theologically-oriented theories regarding the evolution of the universe. Such broadly-applied presumptions do not make for a very convincing argument.

I don't think Jesus could have been clearer about how humans came into existence when He said...

Mat 19:4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female [my emphasis],'
Mat 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
Mat 19:7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
Mat 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." [my emphasis]

This would have been an ideal opportunity for Jesus to explain more about His creation, but He chose to underline the creation account that had already been provided in Genesis. Not once did He ever give a hint of any doubt that they were meant to be taken literally. So for me, I would be more or less convinced that evolution in general and evolution of humans from ape-like creatures in particular was false if I were only relying on the massive holes poked in the theory by creation scientists, but the fact that the creator endorses the text is enough to put the seal on it for me. I don't even need to consider other theories about how to deal with Genesis in the light of the evolutionary claims made by the likes of Richard Dawkins et al.

If we stay within the confines of the fundamentalist box, science is clearly a thing of the Devil, and that's the end of it.
That is clearly not the view of mainstream creation ministries like creation.com and answersingenesis which are very pro-science. If you really want to find out what mainstream creation scientists have to say, I would recommend the brilliant new DVD they have produced called "Evolution's Achilles' Heels" which contains some very telling arguments. Then you have people like Dr Menton, a creation scientist with a string of achievements to his name, including...
  • Member of the American Association of Anatomists
  • Member of Sigma Xi
  • Silver Award for Basic Research from the American Academy of Dermatology
  • Given "Distinguished Service Teaching Award" from Washington University School of Medicine in 1991, 1994, 1995, 1996, and 1997
  • Named "Teacher of the Year" at Washington University School of Medicine in 1979
  • Elected "Professor of the Year" in 1998 by the Washington University School of Medicine Class of 2000
  • Profiled in 'American Men and Women of Science - A Biographical Directory of Today's Leaders in Physical, Biological and Related Sciences' for almost two decades.
I've watched a couple of Dr Menton's videos, one on the eye and the other called "Evolution - Not a Chance." If people like Dr Menton, with their wealth of knowledge, reject the notion that we all came from pond scum billions of years ago, then that's good enough for me.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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This would have been an ideal opportunity for Jesus to explain more about His creation, but He chose to underline the creation account that had already been provided in Genesis.

That doesn't follow. Jesus was using the illustration to support his teaching on divorce. For him to take a full detour into origins theology would have been curious indeed.

Not once did He ever give a hint of any doubt that they were meant to be taken literally.

Perhaps not, but there's also no indication that it should be interpreted literally. He's reciting the passage--however the narrative is to be interpreted--as support for the argument he is making. Whether or not the narrative itself is to be interpreted literally has nothing to do with his point, which is not that "Adam and Eve *really* happened", but that what Jesus is arguing is built-in to God's design for human relationships.

Moreover, by your logic, we should take every quotation of Scripture (or other literature, for that matter) "literally". For example, Jesus' fulfillment of Hosea 11:1-2 would lead us to believe Jesus (Israel) sacrificed to Baals and burned incense to images. Obviously, no one forces such a literalist interpretation on this passage, but the principle that you have laid out would suggest that we should.

So for me, I would be more or less convinced that evolution in general and evolution of humans from ape-like creatures in particular was false if I were only relying on the massive holes poked in the theory by creation scientists, but the fact that the creator endorses the text is enough to put the seal on it for me. I don't even need to consider other theories about how to deal with Genesis in the light of the evolutionary claims made by the likes of Richard Dawkins et al.

The so-called "seal" is mostly your imposition of interpretive biases on the text; insofar as that is self-evident (on its face) to you, I don't doubt that it shields you from feeling the need to explore other interpretations.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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Perhaps not, but there's also no indication that it should be interpreted literally.
The straight reading of the text in Genesis clearly indicates that it was meant to be taken literally. If not, how could God have made it any clearer?
which is not that "Adam and Eve *really* happened"
If Adam and Eve weren't the male and female at the beginning of creation that Jesus was referring to, then who exactly was He referring to and when were they made?
Moreover, by your logic, we should take every quotation of Scripture (or other literature, for that matter) "literally"
No so; only when a straight reading of the text indicates that to be the intended meaning as in historical narrative like Genesis.
 
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alexandriaisburning

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The straight reading of the text in Genesis clearly indicates that it was meant to be taken literally. If not, how could God have made it any clearer?

What does "straight reading" mean? Does it mean, "the initial interpretation I come away when reading the text through the default lens of my modern historical/critical understanding of narrative"? If so, then I probably agree with you. However, this does not necessarily mean that the "straight reading" is equivalent with "the actual intention of the author", so I hardly see that "straight reading" is a good measure of accuracy in regard to biblical interpretation.

If Adam and Eve weren't the male and female at the beginning of creation that Jesus was referring to, then who exactly was He referring to and when were they made?

He was referring to the characters of the narrative that would have been common to those with whom he was speaking. As I said before, the mere rehearsal of this narrative does not in and of itself suggest that Jesus was intending that the characters be taken literally (in a historical/critical sense), only that he was using the characters--and their place within the shared narrative--as illustrations to support the theological point he was making. It would be similar (although not identical) to Jesus' use of parables; the mere mention of a person within a parable (for example, a woman with a coin) does not mean that Jesus intends us to search for the historical person upon whom this story *must* be based. Rather, he is using the person, within the context of narrative, as a foil for the actual point he is trying to make.

And even though our historical/critical biases lead us to bad conclusions when interpreting the Scriptures, we actually use similar devices in our own language. Our shared cultural knowledge is replete with narratives which have historical features, but which are not primarily expressed nor understood as critical history (for example, Washington cutting down a cherry tree, etc). Stories like these aren't meaningful because they are "true" in the modern historical sense, but rather communicate truth in the way that they connect to shared values, communicate metaphysical concepts, etc. Despite the modern mind's best efforts to divorce itself from the mythological, mythos still has a central part in human thinking and should be embraced, not rejected, especially in that it is a valuable tool for trying to embody the mindsets of those that wrote and read the Scriptures in their original contexts.
 
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Not_By_Chance

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He was referring to the characters of the narrative that would have been common to those with whom he was speaking.
How do you know this - there is no hint that He wasn't speaking of real people in the text? What about the following passage - do you think that Jesus was referring to real history here?
Luke 17:26 "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.
Luke 17:27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 "It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.
Luke 17:29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.
 
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What strikes me when I read Genesis is how it is concerned in the first days with a process of division. The earth had no form and was void - the spirit moved and the process began. God created light and then separated it from darkness. Until this was done there would be no distinction between them (something inconceivable to us - who can imagine that?).

Then they were named day and night but still without sun or moon or earth and heavens (again inconceivable). The firmament was made by sundering the waters from above and below - another division. Division and naming of that which previously was without form.

God splits the void and with each successive split, things come increasingly into focus. Time itself is meaningless unless it has reference to space and objects. This cuts to the very core of how we define existence itself. Genesis is a very profound document and merits deeper consideration. Not that I make any claims to grasp it myself.
 
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