A Question Too Theologians

[Tharius]

Long as a child had I prayed to the sky hoping that something would alleviate my fears of the permanence of death. Long was I ignored. But as all children cling to the idea of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy I soon learned to deal with harsh reality on my own. I have been preached too by my Christian family, called over by my Muslim side but never have I been presented with a real reason to believe in something with no evidence. Faith over reason, idiocy over truth, fact over fiction.

I wish to understand your perspective, as those who believe in an archaic text that offers no proof and has been proven historically inaccurate in many ways. And even if it was historically accurate, even if it had no contradictions, what then would that prove? It would prove that some mighty good fiction was written back in the dark ages. I am not here to be offensive but I truly am confused by your system of beliefs. To live your life based upon a book is a bold move and one that I feel should at least require rational justifications. No?

The book which your life by says that I am going to hell for simply not excepting your god who has not only NOT shown himself to be, but also offered no proof by which I should be able to base my beliefs upon. Now you will undoubtedly bring up faith in your defence but faith is not a means of justification. I can not justify murder by the “faith” of my intentions because logic and ethics dictate that this is wrong despite my faith in the morality of the actions. Faith is simply a word to describe belief without logical support, and if that is what you base your ideals upon then it is no small wonder that humanity has such a capacity for self destruction and idiocy.

But I’m sure you all have real and concrete reasons for your beliefs and thus I do not mean to offend any of you by the comments I direct towards irrational thinkers. I am one hundred percent positive that something backs your convictions and it is surely not simply blind faith. Reason is the basis for all beliefs and thus I am sure that you all have a reason, have some sort of evidence, some sort of proof, something concrete. Why else would you put your trust in a book with as much seeming credence as a Harry Potter?

I wish to hear your justifications of why you believe what you do as something to help me understand your beliefs, as you so oft no doubt wish to understand mine. For how can we preach compassion when we refuse to understand, communicate, or even comprehend eachother?

 

[Sojourner<><]

I was baptized into the Christian faith at around the age of five. It was mostly a faith inherited from my father since I wasn't capable of much reason at the time. This proved to be a weak form of faith since I fell away during my teen years when I became agnostic. Later though, I began to rationally explore what I believed and I simply prayed to God and He answered me. This has become the basis for my renewed faith in Christ.

 

[elman]

Long as a child had I prayed to the sky hoping that something would alleviate my fears of the permanence of death. Long was I ignored. But as all children cling to the idea of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy I soon learned to deal with harsh reality on my own. I have been preached too by my Christian family, called over by my Muslim side but never have I been presented with a real reason to believe in something with no evidence. Faith over reason, idiocy over truth, fact over fiction.

I wish to understand your perspective, as those who believe in an archaic text that offers no proof and has been proven historically inaccurate in many ways. And even if it was historically accurate, even if it had no contradictions, what then would that prove? It would prove that some mighty good fiction was written back in the dark ages. I am not here to be offensive but I truly am confused by your system of beliefs. To live your life based upon a book is a bold move and one that I feel should at least require rational justifications. No?

The book which your life by says that I am going to hell for simply not excepting your god who has not only NOT shown himself to be, but also offered no proof by which I should be able to base my beliefs upon. Now you will undoubtedly bring up faith in your defence but faith is not a means of justification. I can not justify murder by the &#8220;faith&#8221; of my intentions because logic and ethics dictate that this is wrong despite my faith in the morality of the actions. Faith is simply a word to describe belief without logical support, and if that is what you base your ideals upon then it is no small wonder that humanity has such a capacity for self destruction and idiocy.

But I&#8217;m sure you all have real and concrete reasons for your beliefs and thus I do not mean to offend any of you by the comments I direct towards irrational thinkers. I am one hundred percent positive that something backs your convictions and it is surely not simply blind faith. Reason is the basis for all beliefs and thus I am sure that you all have a reason, have some sort of evidence, some sort of proof, something concrete. Why else would you put your trust in a book with as much seeming credence as a Harry Potter?

I wish to hear your justifications of why you believe what you do as something to help me understand your beliefs, as you so oft no doubt wish to understand mine. For how can we preach compassion when we refuse to understand, communicate, or even comprehend eachother?

Have you decided you exist for no reason that will last? Is there no purpose to your life? If there is no afterlife, and no creator, then it is just a matter of time until there will be no existence and there will have been no reason for existence. This also means there is no destiny for which to hope. I believe we exist for the purpose of loving each other and I believe this entire universe exists for a reason. That means there is an intelligence that had the reason to create everything. That intelligent Creator is God.

 

[The Nihilist]

Have you decided you exist for no reason that will last? Is there no purpose to your life? If there is no afterlife, and no creator, then it is just a matter of time until there will be no existence and there will have been no reason for existence.

But there are butterflies and sunshine and rainbows and turkey and roastbeef sandwiches with provolone and mayonnaise and comfortable chairs and bunnies and good books and warm showers on cold days and pot and flirting with pretty girls and paydays and rollercoasters and zebra cakes and hugs and booze and dirty jokes and music and flowers and beaches and good friends and morning sex with pretty girls. Goodness, what other reason could anyone possibly need?

 

[benmaarof]

I have faith in my religion because to me, it has the most logical explanation for the existence and nature of God.

It explains that God exists.

Quran 029.020 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how God did originate creation; so will God produce a later creation: for God has power over all things.

Quran 002.164 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which God Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.

It explains that everything come from something. Even the Big-Bang. Those exploding mass of matter and energy could not possibly be there by accident

Quran
21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder (the Big-Bang)? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
21:31 And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
21:32 And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!
21:33 It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course (orbit).

It also explains the logical nature of God.

Quran 031.011 Such is the Creation of God: now show Me what is there that others besides Him have created: nay, but the Transgressors are in manifest error.

Quran : The Unity
112:1 Say: He is God, the One and Only;
112:2 God, the Eternal, Absolute;
112:3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112:4 And there is none like unto Him.

Quran 002.255 God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is t he Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Quran 007.191 Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?

Quran 010.018 They serve, besides God, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with God." Say: "Do ye indeed inform God of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

Quran 003.059 The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

Quran 005.075 Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

Quran 006.103 No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.

Blind faith is just so medieval.

 

[holysee]

Although Judaism, Christianity and Islam are often described as "religion of the book" they are not primarily based on a believers relationship to the written word. Religion is based on the relationship of the individual and the believing community with the living God. The books are summaries, reports and accounts of the Divine Revelation over time. They enable us to know more and understand more about the Creator and His role in the universe.

The most important thing though is having a living relationship with the living God. The books can give us guidance on this but no book is a substitute for a real relationship. Believers believe not because of what they have read but because of what they have experienced. And what have they experienced? Well its different for different believers but God is closer to us than our own jugular vein its just a question of knowing Him, loving Him and allowing Him to rule our in our hearts

 

[elman]

But there are butterflies and sunshine and rainbows and turkey and roastbeef sandwiches with provolone and mayonnaise and comfortable chairs and bunnies and good books and warm showers on cold days and pot and flirting with pretty girls and paydays and rollercoasters and zebra cakes and hugs and booze and dirty jokes and music and flowers and beaches and good friends and morning sex with pretty girls. Goodness, what other reason could anyone possibly need?

Life ends and it is not all peace and joy until then. You believe this is as good as it gets. I see the pain and suffering and problems and hope for better.

 

[The Nihilist]

Life ends and it is not all peace and joy until then. You believe this is as good as it gets. I see the pain and suffering and problems and hope for better.

What you say is true, but rainy days make sunshine that much sweeter.

 

[Stinker]

Long as a child had I prayed to the sky hoping that something would alleviate my fears of the permanence of death. Long was I ignored. But as all children cling to the idea of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy I soon learned to deal with harsh reality on my own. I have been preached too by my Christian family, called over by my Muslim side but never have I been presented with a real reason to believe in something with no evidence. Faith over reason, idiocy over truth, fact over fiction.

I wish to understand your perspective, as those who believe in an archaic text that offers no proof and has been proven historically inaccurate in many ways. And even if it was historically accurate, even if it had no contradictions, what then would that prove? It would prove that some mighty good fiction was written back in the dark ages. I am not here to be offensive but I truly am confused by your system of beliefs. To live your life based upon a book is a bold move and one that I feel should at least require rational justifications. No?

The book which your life by says that I am going to hell for simply not excepting your god who has not only NOT shown himself to be, but also offered no proof by which I should be able to base my beliefs upon. Now you will undoubtedly bring up faith in your defence but faith is not a means of justification. I can not justify murder by the “faith” of my intentions because logic and ethics dictate that this is wrong despite my faith in the morality of the actions. Faith is simply a word to describe belief without logical support, and if that is what you base your ideals upon then it is no small wonder that humanity has such a capacity for self destruction and idiocy.

But I’m sure you all have real and concrete reasons for your beliefs and thus I do not mean to offend any of you by the comments I direct towards irrational thinkers. I am one hundred percent positive that something backs your convictions and it is surely not simply blind faith. Reason is the basis for all beliefs and thus I am sure that you all have a reason, have some sort of evidence, some sort of proof, something concrete. Why else would you put your trust in a book with as much seeming credence as a Harry Potter?

I wish to hear your justifications of why you believe what you do as something to help me understand your beliefs, as you so oft no doubt wish to understand mine. For how can we preach compassion when we refuse to understand, communicate, or even comprehend eachother?

"....because logic and ethics dictate that this is wrong despite my faith in the morality of the actions."
--------------------------------------------------------------


C.S. Lewis thought pretty much the same way. However, his logic and ethics were just a product of his own mind:

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this
idea of 'just' and 'unjust' ? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight
line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it 'unjust' ? If the whole show was bad
from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent
reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into the water, because man is not a water animal:
a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of 'justice' by saying it was nothing
but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too- for the
argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to
please my private fancies."
"Thus in the very act in trying to prove that God did not exist- in other words, that the whole of reality was
senseless, I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality- namely that my idea of 'justice' - was
full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning:
we should never have found out that it has no meaning; just as, if there were no light in the universe and
therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. 'Dark' would be without meaning."
[The Rival Conceptions of God]

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

 

[The Nihilist]

"....because logic and ethics dictate that this is wrong despite my faith in the morality of the actions."
--------------------------------------------------------------


C.S. Lewis thought pretty much the same way. However, his logic and ethics were just a product of his own mind:

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this
idea of 'just' and 'unjust' ? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight
line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it 'unjust' ? If the whole show was bad
from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent
reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into the water, because man is not a water animal:
a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of 'justice' by saying it was nothing
but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too- for the
argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to
please my private fancies."
"Thus in the very act in trying to prove that God did not exist- in other words, that the whole of reality was
senseless, I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality- namely that my idea of 'justice' - was
full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning:
we should never have found out that it has no meaning; just as, if there were no light in the universe and
therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. 'Dark' would be without meaning."
[The Rival Conceptions of God]

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

C. S. Lewis is an idiot and that argument is crap. I'd explain why, but I'm trying to get laid, so I don't have time to explain it.

 

[The Nihilist]

"....because logic and ethics dictate that this is wrong despite my faith in the morality of the actions."
--------------------------------------------------------------
C.S. Lewis thought pretty much the same way. However, his logic and ethics were just a product of his own mind:
"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this
idea of 'just' and 'unjust' ? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight
line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it 'unjust' ? If the whole show was bad
from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent
reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into the water, because man is not a water animal:
a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up my idea of 'justice' by saying it was nothing
but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too- for the
argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to
please my private fancies."
"Thus in the very act in trying to prove that God did not exist- in other words, that the whole of reality was
senseless, I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality- namely that my idea of 'justice' - was
full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning:
we should never have found out that it has no meaning; just as, if there were no light in the universe and
therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. 'Dark' would be without meaning."
[The Rival Conceptions of God]

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

Ok, looks like my luck will be better tomorrow.

The reason this is stupid is because the account he provides of justice is bunk. The fact is, we call the things that we like good and we call the things we don't like bad, and then we systematize it and call it justice. When little kids complain that something isn't fair, what do they mean? They mean they didn't get their way.
Also, I don't think anyone says the world is bad from A to Z. Sometimes it is fair, so that's stupid too. I hate C.S. Lewis and have contempt alone for those who think he's great.