A question to protestants

[Major1]

But this IS what God is doing; calling women to be ordained.
And as he will never go against his own word, then it cannot be that there is teaching in the Bible that forbids this.
And, from these forums, it IS a fact that those who cannot accept that women can be called to ordination tell them that they are wrong, deluded or disobedient.

There are some who believe that women shouldn't even be allowed to preach the Gospel, and, when I have shared my own experience of being called and having been a preacher for 12 years, flatly deny that God called me at all and that I am sinning.
Why it is a sin to preach the Good News in response to the Great Commission, or as Mary Magdalene and others did, has not really been explained.

Lots of comments on a real simple subject IMO.

You can add me to your list of people who YOU think are wrong, deluded or disobedient.

However, others will say that I am old fashioned.
Others will say that I read and believe what the Bible says on this subject.

Honestly, and with no disrespect intended to anyone, I for one do not know how anyone can read the Bible and then say that women can be Bishops or deacons.

To have that understanding means only one thing...….you have completely disreguared the Word of God.

God is NOT calling women to be ordained. MEN and WOMEN are doing that because they want to. God CAN NOT call women to be Pastors/Bishops/deacons because He has already said that only MEN could hold those positions.

1 Timothy 3:1-4 ............
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity".

1 Timothy 2:11–12 (ESV)

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. "

1 Timothy 2:13–14 (ESV)

"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church. This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women in Titus 2:3-5.

The Bible also does not restrict women from teaching children. The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors to men. This does not make women less important, by any means, but rather gives them a ministry focus more in agreement with God’s plan and His gifting of them.

 

[Major1]

So, are you saying that one is better than the others?

Additionally, the fallacy in your analysis of what I said is the conclusion to which you gravitated. Failure to follow after the teachings and rudiments of man-made denominations does not automatically lead to personal, self-made interpretations. Do you not believe what scripture teaches in 1 John 2:27?

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."



You really are going off the deep end with trying to legitimize the idea that not following one of the man-made (c)hurch organizations and/or denominations is a matter of being a free radical where all paths lead to heresy. Is that the extent of your experience and understanding? Have you become so programmed in your thinking that the bandwagon life is the only life there is?

Do you not realize the vast distinction between all those man-made (c)churches out there, and the (C)hurch, which is the TRUE body of Christ Jesus, and Him as her Head? Unbelievers routinely enter into and warm the seats within those (c)hurches out there, but the (C)hurch is the one body where no unbeliever may enter.



Then it sounds like you don't believe scripture in what it says in places like 1 John. Your being in those (c)hurch organizations appears to have corrupted your own knowledge of the Bible, and your trust in the authority behind what it says. One thing those man-made organizations do is to twist scripture away from what it actually says, such as teaching about an alleged requirement tithe. All those false teachers of that doctrine fail to mention that the OT tithe never had anything to do with monetary, earned wages. Many institutional followers love talking about how faithful they are at tithing, and yet they have little to no understanding of what the Bible REALLY teaches along that line.

So, if you're going to try and make the case for following after men and their pet doctrines as opposed to allowing the Spirit of the Lord to instruct and teach as is promised in 1 John, I will follow the Lord and His inspired word...and yes, I do delve into the Greek and Hebrew from which the Bible was translated.



I agree that we all need one another in fellowship, but to say that we must remain bleeting sheeple under the tutelage of men who may or may not be right, and to follow them blindly, no. If that's what you're saying, then no. I choose to seek the Lord and His wisdom and instruction above that of men. I'm sure there are many "interpretations" from men out there of that passage in 1 John, where they will twist it into a mangled heap, relegating it to some other meaning that does not remove any of the limelight from them.

I never said there's no value in what men may teach others. The difference is that I accept responsibility for what I choose to believe by laying it all at the Feet of the Most High for Him to sift through and cast aside what is not of Him. If you're not doing that, then that's your problem, and only YOU will answer for it.

Jr

1 Corth. 14:34-35......……..
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church".

In both 1 Corth. 11 & 14, Paul is keen to maintain male spiritual leadership in the home and church as a universal principle as well as 1 Tim. 2:12. Pastors and elders are men, and women come under that authority with the rest of the church.

Lexicon
women​

γυναῖκες (gynaikes)​

Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 1135: A woman, wife, my lady. Probably from the base of ginomai; a woman; specially, a wife.

This does not mean that women are less than men or not as important as men. It is all about order and submission.

 

[Strong in Him]

You can add me to your list of people who YOU think are wrong, deluded or disobedient.

I was saying the opposite actually; that over the years, people who don't believe that women should be ordained have called THEM disobedient, deluded or wrong. I am not ordained but I am a preacher, and sometimes those comments have been made about me as well.

I have never said that if you don't agree with women's ordination you are deluded; I've said that if that's how you read the Scriptures and what you believe, you have to stick to it and find a church which does not allow it.
I disagree with that interpretation of Scripture, but I would never call anyone deluded for disobeying what they believed the Bible said. (Unless they were a cult member and not allowing members to have blood transfusions, or whatever.)

Honestly, and with no disrespect intended to anyone, I for one do not know how anyone can read the Bible and then say that women can be Bishops or deacons.

That's just it, if you read the BIBLE:
- Deborah was judge over the whole nation; chosen by God
- Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Isaiah's wife, Philip's 4 daughters and others were prophetesses; giving God's word to men.
- women were queens and had responsibility and influence; Esther saved the Jews from destruction, and Jews still celebrate Purim today.
- Phoebe was a deacon. The word used in the Greek can also be translated Minister or servant, and is used of both men and women, including Jesus.
- Priscilla taught Apollos.
- Mary Magdalene was chosen by Jesus to be the first witness to the resurrection; he didn't have to do that, he could have appeared to the 12 first. This was in a society when women were considered to be unreliable witnesses.
- women have not been excluded from the Great Commission; to go, preach, teach and baptise.
- There is no verse which says that certain gifts of the Spirit are only for men; suggesting that women also can teach, 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Pastor Ephesians 4:11.

To have that understanding means only one thing...….you have completely disreguared the Word of God.

How so?

God is NOT calling women to be ordained. MEN and WOMEN are doing that because they want to.

That sounds like a massive judgement - that Christian, Spirit filled, born again, children of God who want to serve God are only offering for ordination because THEY want to.
Seriously?? Why would any woman choose, of her own will, to be ordained?
- I don't think the pay is great.
- She may have had a better or fulfilling job previously, or been happy to be at home and care for her children. Ministry is a step down from being MD or a highly paid lawyer, for example.
- She will, if this forum is anything to go by, face hostility, abuse, doubt and may feel she has to work twice as hard to prove herself and her calling. It shouldn't be like that - among people who are supposed to be showing the world how much we love one another - but there it is.

God CAN NOT call women to be Pastors/Bishops/deacons because He has already said that only MEN could hold those positions.

You're telling God he can't do something? Good luck with that.

See, it depends on how you look at it.
I think everyone agrees that God will not contradict his word. So those who are read certain Scriptures a particular way and conclude that female ordination is wrong, have no choice but to dismiss all women who say they are called by God - everywhere, in every country and denomination - as being mistaken, (and that's the polite word.)
Whereas those who read Scripture, see God using women in a variety of roles, realise that some women have been fulfilling those roles for centuries (e.g Catherine of Siena was asked by the Pope to teach Cardinals in the 1300s; John Wesley had female preachers in the 1700s, Catherine Booth was a preacher), and KNOW that he is calling women today; conclude that, as God does not contradict his word, there can't be anything in the Bible that prevents him from calling whoever he wishes, to serve him.
If God HAD already told us that only MEN could be ordained, he would not be calling women today, (I know you'll say he isn't, but thousands of women, and men, say otherwise.) Women would therefore simply not be in these roles; unless you are implying that they ARE deliberately disobeying God's word, haven't prayed or asked for guidance and the Lord is powerless to stop them from getting up in a pulpit and saying "God has called me to be here".
Women are Ministers today and are being ordained; you clearly don't like it, but it's happening and has been for some time.

1 Timothy 3:1-4 ............
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity".

O.k
1 The word MAN in Scripture doesn't always mean exclusively males. That might sound daft, but other Scriptures talk of MEN being sinners, evil, or needing to repent and be saved, or being filled with the Spirit. Yet no one would say "this means women are perfect, holy, do not need a Saviour and cannot/need not be filled with the Holy Spirit". I'm sure you would agree that Scriptures that say that men need to repent, also include women too. So is the word MAN being used selectively here?
2 A bishop must be the husband of one wife; that means he HAS to be married. It does not say "this proves a woman cannot be a bishop because a woman can't have a wife." A bishop, then, need to set an example and have ONE wife, in societies where people may have had 3 or 4. In the OT many prominent figures had more than one wife; that was how it was then.
3 If a Bishop HAS to be able to manage his children, he, and /or his wife HAVE to be fertile, and have them. Does anyone ask would be bishops if they are able to have children, and then say "well Scripture says you have to be able to control your children and you don't even have any; so you can't be a bishop"? Does anyone say, "you do have children, but you haven't been able to stop them from rebelling and leaving church, joining a cult, taking drugs etc. Therefore you are not obeying Paul's words to Timothy, so we're not going to select you/sack you"?
I doubt it somehow. I'm pretty sure people would rush to say "that Scripture just means that if a bishop DOES have children, he should be able to manage them well." Yet, strangely, they would probably insist that the same passage disqualifies a woman form being a bishop/Minister because she does not have a wife.
I'm not saying you are doing this, but I've seen the argument - and I think it's a case of selective application of Scripture.
4 Likewise, how many people have ever said to MEN, "you cannot be ordained, you have a temper/like a drink/are impatient etc etc. These are not all, or the only qualities needed; why does Paul say nothing here about having faith, being filled with the Spirit or being men of prayer?

(To be continued, this is getting rather long.)

 

[Albion]

I was saying the opposite actually; that over the years, people who don't believe that women should be ordained have called THEM disobedient, deluded or wrong. I am not ordained but I am a preacher, and sometimes those comments have been made about me as well.

You're a self-appointed pastor/minister, then?

I have never said that if you don't agree with women's ordination you are deluded; I've said that if that's how you read the Scriptures and what you believe, you have to stick to it and find a church which does not allow it.

That seems reasonable.

I disagree with that interpretation of Scripture, but I would never call anyone deluded for disobeying what they believed the Bible said.

Yes. That's a pretty strong word and probably should be avoided, even if the speaker means to say that the other person has been misled about something or other.

That's just it, if you read the BIBLE:
- Deborah was judge over the whole nation; chosen by God

Not a pastor/priest/minister, then.

- Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Isaiah's wife, Philip's 4 daughters and others were prophetesses; giving God's word to men.

Also not pastors/priests/ministers, etc.

- women were queens and had responsibility and influence; Esther saved the Jews from destruction, and Jews still celebrate Purim today.

Same as the above.

- Phoebe was a deacon. The word used in the Greek can also be translated Minister or servant, and is used of both men and women, including Jesus.

But the men and women were given quite different positions and duties as "servants" of the church. That is what we are discussing--the respective positions.

- Priscilla taught Apollos.
- Mary Magdalene was chosen by Jesus to be the first witness to the resurrection

As above, not presbyters/ministers/bishops or anything of the sort.

About all you have done here is show that the Bible reports that there were women in leadership in the early church, but not that the clerical positions were among them.

And that is the issue here with most of the churches which maintain the traditional policy of all-male ordinations. They do have women teachers, board members, readers, eucharistic ministers, Sunday School superintendents, etc...

There are, to be sure, some other churches which additionally prohibit women from serving in any leadership capacity. These are fewer in number and base their policies on totally different Bible verses.

 

[Strong in Him]

Continued.

1 Timothy 2:11–12 (ESV)

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. "

Women are to learn in silence - very sensible; a person cannot learn if they are interrupting and not listening.
PAUL did not permit a woman to teach - is that A womAn, or ALL women? If the latter, why did he allow Priscilla to teach Apollos? And how can he forbid us today from teaching; he's not here? He also taught that women can prophesy; if you are giving someone a word from God, you are teaching them what he is saying.

1 Timothy 2:13–14 (ESV)
"For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

Eve was certainly deceived, yes - because she had not heard for herself the command from God not to eat the fruit of the tree; she wasn't even created at that point, Genesis 2:16-18. We are not told that Eve received this command directly from God, so it is likely that Adam told her. (If God had wanted us to know that he had also commanded Eve not to eat the fruit, he would have told us.) Going back to Paul's words, if a woman learns in silence she will heart the truth and not be able to be deceived. It is vital that female Christians should not be deceived; we need to know the truth just as much as men do.
If you read Eve's words to the serpent, Genesis 3:3 and compare it with what Adam was told by God; they are different. Eve did not accurately repeat what God had said - maybe she was talking or not listening properly. So it was much easier for the serpent to say "DID God say .....?" It didn't say this to Adam, who had heard God speak for himself; Adam KNEW what God had said. And he was still disobedient.
If you are implying that a woman should not be ordained because Eve was deceived, then men shouldn't be ordained because Adam wilfully disobeyed. Who wants a Minister who KNOWS God's will and does the opposite?

God has ordained that only men are to serve in positions of spiritual teaching authority in the church.

That is the conclusion you have reached by reading those Scriptures, certainly.

This is not because men are necessarily better teachers or because women are inferior or less intelligent (which is not the case). It is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership—in their lives and through their words. Women are to take a less authoritative role. Women are encouraged to teach other women in Titus 2:3-5.

Oh; so women cannot teach because Paul said so and because Eve was deceived, but it's o.k if we teach other women?
Either we can teach or we can't; either teaching is a gift of the Spirit which can be given to women, or it isn't. And if women are deceived because Eve was, all the more reason for someone to teach us the truth - which would exclude men because Adam knew the truth and chose to ignore it.

The only activity women are restricted from is teaching or having spiritual authority over men.

What does that mean?
That women can't be evangelists and tell men they are sinners?
That women can't prophesy or issue a call to repentance? Huldah did.
What does "spiritual authority over" mean?

This precludes women from serving as pastors to men.

Given what you have said so far, that is the logical conclusion, maybe the only conclusion, you can come to. I disagree, and I disagree that Scripture says so.

 

[Major1]

Continued.



Women are to learn in silence - very sensible; a person cannot learn if they are interrupting and not listening.
PAUL did not permit a woman to teach - is that A womAn, or ALL women? If the latter, why did he allow Priscilla to teach Apollos? And how can he forbid us today from teaching; he's not here? He also taught that women can prophesy; if you are giving someone a word from God, you are teaching them what he is saying.



Eve was certainly deceived, yes - because she had not heard for herself the command from God not to eat the fruit of the tree; she wasn't even created at that point, Genesis 2:16-18. We are not told that Eve received this command directly from God, so it is likely that Adam told her. (If God had wanted us to know that he had also commanded Eve not to eat the fruit, he would have told us.) Going back to Paul's words, if a woman learns in silence she will heart the truth and not be able to be deceived. It is vital that female Christians should not be deceived; we need to know the truth just as much as men do.
If you read Eve's words to the serpent, Genesis 3:3 and compare it with what Adam was told by God; they are different. Eve did not accurately repeat what God had said - maybe she was talking or not listening properly. So it was much easier for the serpent to say "DID God say .....?" It didn't say this to Adam, who had heard God speak for himself; Adam KNEW what God had said. And he was still disobedient.
If you are implying that a woman should not be ordained because Eve was deceived, then men shouldn't be ordained because Adam wilfully disobeyed. Who wants a Minister who KNOWS God's will and does the opposite?



That is the conclusion you have reached by reading those Scriptures, certainly.



Oh; so women cannot teach because Paul said so and because Eve was deceived, but it's o.k if we teach other women?
Either we can teach or we can't; either teaching is a gift of the Spirit which can be given to women, or it isn't. And if women are deceived because Eve was, all the more reason for someone to teach us the truth - which would exclude men because Adam knew the truth and chose to ignore it.



What does that mean?
That women can't be evangelists and tell men they are sinners?
That women can't prophesy or issue a call to repentance? Huldah did.
What does "spiritual authority over" mean?



Given what you have said so far, that is the logical conclusion, maybe the only conclusion, you can come to. I disagree, and I disagree that Scripture says so.

You are welcome to disagree with me. Just know that you are not the 1st to do so.

You however can not disagree with the Scriptures. You can ignore them or you can disobey them but disagreeing is not an option.

Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:12 which I posted for you that he doesn't allow a woman...…..
"to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

Paul anchors his reason in the created order, "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."

In other words, this is not a culturally based opinion. It is a doctrinal statement.

It is always a good idea to examine a verse in its context but is also extremely helpful when we find a statement declaring the purpose of the right. We find just such a statement in 1 Tim. 3:15...…...
"I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."

Therefore, the issue of authority that we are looking at here is meant to be in the context of the church.

It makes no sense to say that 1 Tim. 2:12 is referring to an individual woman who was preaching false doctrine. It doesn't fit the context. That is only RATIONALIZATION.

The truth is that women in general, married or not, are to learn in submission in the church and are not to hold authoritative teaching positions such as pastor and elder which are repeated stated to be held by men.

Now I encourage you to understand that I DID NOT WRITE anything in the Bible so please do not be upset with me. God directed Paul write those requirements. Now you can accept what is written or you can do what you want to do.

 

[Major1]

You're a self-appointed pastor/minister, then?


That seems reasonable.


Yes. That's a pretty strong word and probably should be avoided, even if the speaker means to say that the other person has been misled about something or other.


Not a pastor/priest/minister, then.


Also not pastors/priests/ministers, etc.


Same as the above.


But the men and women were given quite different positions and duties as "servants" of the church. That is what we are discussing--the respective positions.


As above, not presbyters/ministers/bishops or anything of the sort.

About all you have done here is show that the Bible reports that there were women in leadership in the early church, but not that the clerical positions were among them.

And that is the issue here with most of the churches which maintain the traditional policy of all-male ordinations. They do have women teachers, board members, readers, eucharistic ministers, Sunday School superintendents, etc...

There are, to be sure, some other churches which additionally prohibit women from serving in any leadership capacity. These are fewer in number and base their policies on totally different Bible verses.

As usual, I agree with your positions.

Like it or not, the Scriptures teach that eldership and pastorship is to be held by males. This is not to say that women aren't talented or even able to do their jobs in the church better than some men, but practicality does not trump doctrinal truth. We need to be faithful to God's Word.

I can tell everyone from experience that women are, unfortunately, underappreciated, underused, and undervalued in the church. They contribute so very much to the smooth running and well-being of the church family. Without women in the church there would be no church at all.

The Bible is very clear on this and it says that MEN are the ones responsible in the church to teach sound doctrine, to refute error, and to lead in a godly manner.

 

[Albion]

...and, Major, what it comes down to is that modern men and women are so focused on the idea of equality that they cannot even contemplate that God might have chosen men for some jobs and women for others without any implication that some of the above are thereby incompetent or second-rate.

Yet this is the same God who had a "chosen race" and I never hear the equality devotees denying it or going on about how xenophobic or biased it was of God to do that!

 

[Strong in Him]

You're a self-appointed pastor/minister, then?

Why would you assume that; did you read what I said? I am not ordained but I am a preacher.
Called by God to be a lay preacher in the Methodist church; trained by other preachers, commissioned by our Superintendent Minister (male), welcomed by the President of the Conference, (male), accepted and supported by the church.

Not a pastor/priest/minister, then.

No, but someone in authority over men, which, apparently, God does not allow.

Also not pastors/priests/ministers, etc.

No, but it has been said that women are not allowed to teach, and some would say, even speak, in church.
These women spoke God's word to men - told them what God required of them. It seems strange that God would allow this all through the Bible, right up to 1 Timothy, and then suddenly, apparently, command that women should not speak or teach.

About all you have done here is show that the Bible reports that there were women in leadership in the early church, but not that the clerical positions were among them.

Where does it say that men were in clerical positions?
There were deacons, deaconesses and overseers; an overseer was someone who oversaw the work of the church. Scripture doesn't say they were ordained, wore dog collars, needed to demonstrate any kind of calling or go to college - it doesn't even say they needed to have faith, gifts of the Spirit or be able to pray.
Since then, men have made the office of Bishop a clerical one - with the robes and so on to go with it. It wasn't like that in the early church.

And that is the issue here with most of the churches which maintain the traditional policy of all-male ordinations. They do have women teachers, board members, readers, eucharistic ministers, Sunday School superintendents, etc...

Well if they believe they can allow women to do all these things but not recognise a call from God to allow a woman to be a Pastor, that's up to them.
When I was a teenager in the Anglican church, seeing the pain of our deaconess who believed she was called to ordination and yet had to remain in a church which would not allow her to respond to God's call; I always said that if I were called by God to do that, I'd ditch the Anglican church and go to one that allowed me to obey God.

There are, to be sure, some other churches which additionally prohibit women from serving in any leadership capacity. These are fewer in number and base their policies on totally different Bible verses.

Yes, I'm sure.
The point is, though, that there is great discrepancy on a subject which is, apparently, CLEARLY taught in Scripture.
Some say women can't preach; quoting 1 Timothy 2:12. Others quote the same verse, but say, yes, a woman CAN preach but not be ordained. Others go completely the other way, see the word "silent" and not allow women to do anything. When I first joined this forum, there was a guy whose wife didn't even sing in church in case she was disobeying God's word. About 35 years ago I went to a church where women were not allowed to read the Bible lessons or lead the prayers - they weren't even allowed to carry up the collection, as I recall.

You would have thought that if this matter was of great importance, and God was keen that no woman would ever be a Pastor/Minister; he would say so, in words that we could not misunderstand. Maybe I'd better go and look up what Jesus said on the subject - oh, wait; he didn't.

 

[Strong in Him]

You are welcome to disagree with me. Just know that you are not the 1st to do so.

You however can not disagree with the Scriptures. You can ignore them or you can disobey them but disagreeing is not an option.

That applies to you too.

Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:12 which I posted for you that he doesn't allow a woman...…..
"to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."

Paul anchors his reason in the created order, "For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve."

In other words, this is not a culturally based opinion. It is a doctrinal statement.

No, it's got nothing to do with doctrine. Allowing women to be ordained, or not, is a matter of church practice, cannot save, or damn, us, is not written in any creed and for most Christians has nothing at all to do with how they live their Christian lives.
Acceptance, or rejection, of this does not stop someone from repenting, being filled with the Spirit, given gifts and made a child of God.

It is always a good idea to examine a verse in its context but is also extremely helpful when we find a statement declaring the purpose of the right. We find just such a statement in 1 Tim. 3:15...…...
"I write so that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."

A church governing body who has allowed a woman to be ordained, recognising her call, has nothing to do with how an ordinary believer conducts him, or her, self in the church. WE are the church - Christians who meet in special church buildings, schools, homes, tents, hospital chapels, army bases - and even on this forum.

It makes no sense to say that 1 Tim. 2:12 is referring to an individual woman who was preaching false doctrine. It doesn't fit the context.

Paul said "I do not allow A womAn to teach ..... SHE must be silent" - singular; how is that not fitting the context?

The truth is that women in general, married or not, are to learn in submission in the church and are not to hold authoritative teaching positions such as pastor and elder which are repeated stated to be held by men.

Where did Jesus say that again?
Where did he say "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it - unless a woman is in charge?"
Or "the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth - the truth that no woman is ever to be ordained in the church - ever"?

Now I encourage you to understand that I DID NOT WRITE anything in the Bible

Never thought you did.

so please do not be upset with me.

I'm not upset with you. I disagree with what you are saying; there's a difference.

God directed Paul write those requirements.

That is the whole issue in these debates - whether or not those few words in a few verse were requirements, or commands by God; I don't believe they were.
In the OT, God made it VERY clear what his commands, his word and his covenant were. He told the Israelites to write them on their foreheads and tie them around their belt. He promised to bless those who kept his law and punish those who disobeyed it, and that is what happened. The nation had no excuses for not being aware what God had commanded them through Moses.
Adam had no excuse either; God had told him directly what he could and couldn't do.
So you would think that God would make this "command" about women VERY clear to us, in words that we could not argue with. Yet Jesus didn't say anything at all on the subject. Jesus, who was God and came to show us what God is like and teach us his will, did not forbid women from doing things that only men were thought to be allowed to do. He allowed them to sit at his feet, like male student Rabbis, and learn from him, he allowed them to take his word to men and teach them about him, and chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
Jesus, who was God, liberated women; the church is trying to imprison them again; shame.

Now you can accept what is written or you can do what you want to do.

There you are; another implication that if we don't read Scripture in the way you think Scripture should be read, we're being disobedient/self seeking.

 

[Albion]

Why would you assume that; did you read what I said? I am not ordained but I am a preacher.

It seemed to me that you used purposely confusing or elusive language there, so I had to ask for a clarification, that's all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I learnt about "sola scripture" and that the protestants adhere to the bible and so began to wonder if I was even a Catholic anymore or a Protestant now as I believe in sola scripture and not the opportunity for humans to add doctrines to it without any bible foundation.

So now I"m surprised to learn that there are female priests in the Protestant priesthood.

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." Timothy 2:11-14 ESV

Scripture is quite clear on that topic, what happened "sola scripture" in this case?

Concerning "adhere to the Bible", have you actually met anyone in person who does ?
Yes, Ekklesia adhere to the Bible, but have you met any ?
(I'm not sure this relates at all to any group mentioned so far, or even to "sola scripture" or not, since so much can mean so many different things to so many different people)

 

[Strong in Him]

It seemed to me that you used purposely confusing or elusive language there, so I had to ask for a clarification, that's all.

Sorry, but I don't understand how "not ordained but a preacher" is confusing?
Not ordained = lay. Several churches have lay preachers; the Anglican church certainly does.

 

[Albion]

Concerning "adhere to the Bible", have you actually met anyone in person who does ?

Hi, jeff.

I think the point there was that this is a key Protestant belief. It is the Bible, not some other source of information, which provides us with our spiritual guidance.

By contrast, non-Protestants typically believe that something else is to be followed, at least in part.

We all know that when it comes to individual people, however, some of them may be devout while others are merely nominal Christians. That's the same regardless of which source of information their respective churches say to follow.

 

[Major1]

...and, Major, what it comes down to is that modern men and women are so focused on the idea of equality that they cannot even contemplate that God might have chosen men for some jobs and women for others without any implication that some of the above are thereby incompetent or second-rate.

Yet this is the same God who had a "chosen race" and I never hear the equality devotees denying it or going on about how xenophobic or biased it was of God to do that!

Agreed my brother.

 

[Major1]

Hi, jeff.

I think the point there was that this is a key Protestant belief. It is the Bible, not some other source of information, which provides us with our spiritual guidance.

By contrast, non-Protestants typically believe that something else is to be followed, at least in part.

We all know that when it comes to individual people, however, some of them may be devout while others are merely nominal Christians. That's the same regardless of which source of information their respective churches say to follow.

Correct.

It is NOT that we do what the Bible says but that we TRY to follow what it says.

 

[Major1]

That applies to you too.



No, it's got nothing to do with doctrine. Allowing women to be ordained, or not, is a matter of church practice, cannot save, or damn, us, is not written in any creed and for most Christians has nothing at all to do with how they live their Christian lives.
Acceptance, or rejection, of this does not stop someone from repenting, being filled with the Spirit, given gifts and made a child of God.



A church governing body who has allowed a woman to be ordained, recognising her call, has nothing to do with how an ordinary believer conducts him, or her, self in the church. WE are the church - Christians who meet in special church buildings, schools, homes, tents, hospital chapels, army bases - and even on this forum.



Paul said "I do not allow A womAn to teach ..... SHE must be silent" - singular; how is that not fitting the context?



Where did Jesus say that again?
Where did he say "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it - unless a woman is in charge?"
Or "the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth - the truth that no woman is ever to be ordained in the church - ever"?



Never thought you did.



I'm not upset with you. I disagree with what you are saying; there's a difference.



That is the whole issue in these debates - whether or not those few words in a few verse were requirements, or commands by God; I don't believe they were.
In the OT, God made it VERY clear what his commands, his word and his covenant were. He told the Israelites to write them on their foreheads and tie them around their belt. He promised to bless those who kept his law and punish those who disobeyed it, and that is what happened. The nation had no excuses for not being aware what God had commanded them through Moses.
Adam had no excuse either; God had told him directly what he could and couldn't do.
So you would think that God would make this "command" about women VERY clear to us, in words that we could not argue with. Yet Jesus didn't say anything at all on the subject. Jesus, who was God and came to show us what God is like and teach us his will, did not forbid women from doing things that only men were thought to be allowed to do. He allowed them to sit at his feet, like male student Rabbis, and learn from him, he allowed them to take his word to men and teach them about him, and chose a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
Jesus, who was God, liberated women; the church is trying to imprison them again; shame.



There you are; another implication that if we don't read Scripture in the way you think Scripture should be read, we're being disobedient/self seeking.

Disagreeing with me means nothin. YOU are in fact rejecting the Word of God and there is the problem.

What you are now doing is called "RATIONALAZATION".

God said...………..

1 Timothy 2:12-13 ...........
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve."

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 .........
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

 

[Strong in Him]

Disagreeing with me means nothin. YOU are in fact rejecting the Word of God and there is the problem.

That's how you see it, certainly.

What you are now doing is called "RATIONALAZATION".

I don't want to be accused of goading or posting inflammatory comments, but it isn't; it's called exegesis.

1 Timothy 2:12-13 ...........
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve."

It was not God saying this, it was Paul. Paul wrote the letter and said "I do not allow ...."; not "hear God's word and command, HE does not allow ...".

The fact is that these Scriptures aren't clear; it's not just me who says so, it's theologians, and many men as well. If you have a literal approach to Scripture - a long as you treat, and read, ALL Scripture the same way; fine - and you should be prepared to defend, and answer questions on, your approach to Scripture. Scripture interprets Scripture; if one verse, or a couple of verses, seem to say one thing but other verses elsewhere say another, we need to study, pray and ask God which is correct.
But you are not entitled to accuse me of rejecting God's word just because I understand it differently to you.

Like I said, this isn't even a matter of, or for, salvation. I am quite sure that there are some lovely Christians who are adamant that women should not be ordained, who will meet retired female Pastors in heaven - and by then, no one will care.

 

[Albion]

It was not God saying this, it was Paul. Paul wrote the letter and said "I do not allow ...."; not "hear God's word and command, HE does not allow ...".

There is a point there all right. However, it is in the Bible. It's not some extra-Biblical document like the Didache or one of the books of the Apocrypha or one of the Gnostic Gospels. If the Bible was canonized and it is considered by almost every church to be divine revelation, we cannot simply dismiss the directives that come to us from Paul or James or another writer as just his own opinion.

 

[Major1]

That's how you see it, certainly.



I don't want to be accused of goading or posting inflammatory comments, but it isn't; it's called exegesis.



It was not God saying this, it was Paul. Paul wrote the letter and said "I do not allow ...."; not "hear God's word and command, HE does not allow ...".

The fact is that these Scriptures aren't clear; it's not just me who says so, it's theologians, and many men as well. If you have a literal approach to Scripture - a long as you treat, and read, ALL Scripture the same way; fine - and you should be prepared to defend, and answer questions on, your approach to Scripture. Scripture interprets Scripture; if one verse, or a couple of verses, seem to say one thing but other verses elsewhere say another, we need to study, pray and ask God which is correct.
But you are not entitled to accuse me of rejecting God's word just because I understand it differently to you.

Like I said, this isn't even a matter of, or for, salvation. I am quite sure that there are some lovely Christians who are adamant that women should not be ordained, who will meet retired female Pastors in heaven - and by then, no one will care.

I agree. I have no desire to harm you in any way and that means goading or anything else.

You say you are correctly exegesising the Scriptures but that just is not the case my sister.

The Scriptures have been posted which say clearly that MEN are to be Bishops and deacons. The only way for any woman to be a pastor or deacon is to INCORRECTLY understand what God said.

Then you said something that kind of tells me where you are coming from.

YOu said...........

"It was not God saying this, it was Paul. Paul wrote the letter and said "I do not allow ...."; not "hear God's word and command, HE does not allow ..."."

Again, I do not want to offend you but you are completely in error and that IMO is why your understanding of the requirements for being a pastor is not understood.
​

GOD WROTE THE BIBLE. One of the men responsible for a large portion of the New Testament, the apostle Paul, wrote in 2 Tim. 3:16-17...…...…...
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work".

The corect and in fact ONLY exegesis possible is that ALL Scripture is “given by inspiration of God” (theopneustos, literally “God-breathed”). God, through His Holy Spirit, inspired men to record His message; and therefore it has divine authority for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness.

God inspired men from diverse backgrounds and generations to record His message for mankind. For a period of more than 1,500 years, God inspired prophets, judges, farmers, shepherds, fishermen, doctors and kings to record His thoughts, much like a manager might dictate instructions or a letter to an assistant or secretary. At times God allowed the human writers to use their own words or terminology, but all received divine inspiration from God—who is really the One who wrote the Bible.

I hope this helps your understanding.

​