A Question to all the Non Protestant High Churches

GreekOrthodox · Jan 27, 2021

From the Sunday of the Last Judgement and the start of Lent the Kontakion hymn reads:

When Thou comest, O God, upon the earth with glory, the whole world will tremble. The river of fire will bring men before Thy judgment seat, the books will be opened and the secrets disclosed. Then deliver me from the unquenchable fire, and count me worthy to stand on Thy right hand, Judge most righteous.

As for Hart, he can have his own views, but I have to sing that hymn in two months.

parousia70 · Jan 27, 2021

Dave L said:
Catholic = universal

Bingo

GreekOrthodox · Jan 27, 2021

BTW, did we lose the poor OP in all of this?

Dave L · Jan 27, 2021

parousia70 said:
Bingo

Not as you would have it. The Catholic Church, falsely so-called, did not exist until after the apostles had established the faith throughout the whole biblical world.

Magnanimity · Jan 27, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
To them who accept .... that there is an end to the torment or a restoration again of creation and of human affairs ... Anathema, Anathema, Anathema

So Justinian then? From what I've read, it's unclear what the exact reasons were why the Council Fathers did not include his anathemas into their conciliar decrees at Constantinople II. Champions of universalism spin it by saying that the exclusion of the anathemas of Origen is an implicit rejection of those anathemas. But others say that it was already well-received by then that these particular teachings of Origen were false so there was no need for the Council Fathers to include the anathemas.

But, I do know that Norman Tanner's editorial crew stated the following, "Our edition does not include the text of the anathemas against Origen since recent studies have shown that these anathemas cannot be attributed to this council." Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, Volume One: Nicaea I to Lateran V (London and Washington: Georgetown University Press, 1990), pp. 105-6. For what that's worth...

Poor Origen...at least he's enjoyed a recent revitalization of interest!

GreekOrthodox · Jan 27, 2021

Magnanimity said:
Poor Origen...at least he's enjoyed a recent revitalization of interest!

Honestly, I feel a bit for Origen. He was REALLY walking on the edge with some of his speculation but died in good standing with the church.

Magnanimity · Jan 27, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
From the Sunday of the Last Judgement and the start of Lent the Kontakion hymn reads:

When Thou comest, O God, upon the earth with glory, the whole world will tremble. The river of fire will bring men before Thy judgment seat, the books will be opened and the secrets disclosed. Then deliver me from the unquenchable fire, and count me worthy to stand on Thy right hand, Judge most righteous.

I like that very much! It's rather hopeful, I think. To it, I'll add the following:

"Lord Jesus Christ, to save all mankind you stretched out your arms on the cross. Let our work be pleasing to you: may it proclaim your salvation to the world." -LOTH, Ordinary Time, 4th week, Wednesday Mid-afternoon prayer

GreekOrthodox said:
As for Hart, he can have his own views, but I have to sing that hymn in two months.

Ah, but it's not just Hart, now is it? I don't know if you were aware that Catholicism's most preeminent theologians of the last century were like Ware or Hart regarding salvation. But, the link I provided you above gives a very long list of readings in universalism, most of whom are Orthodox authors. That doesn't settle the matter, of course. But, I think there can be no mistake about which way the theological wind is blowing on this issue.

Psalm 27 · Jan 27, 2021

Bob Crowley said:
Well, for one thing we predate the Protestant churches by about 1500 years. The Protestant Churches didn't even begin to exist for one and a half millennia after Christ.

Secondly every single doctrine you've inherited from us - Baptism, marriage, the idea of a church in the first place, the tradition of the Bible, the concept of Christian doctrine, church organisation, the writings of Church fathers, the concept of the Trinity worked out in the first centuries after Christ, and all the rest.

Thirdly if you Protestants have the truth, why are you so divided? Why should we believe you've got something to teach us?

Rcc isn’t divided, nobody speaks to anybody. I know, I was there.

1 Cor. 11:19

Albion · Jan 27, 2021

Magnanimity said:
The Catholic church has pronounced in a conciliar document that the church subsists in her...She openly admits that the Orthodox church has a valid priesthood and therefore valid sacraments.

...which is not tantamount to agreeing that no denomination is, in fact, the "one true and only church founded by Christ by which we may be saved."

She's in dialogue with Anglican communions. She openly admits that people can be saved outside of herself (to include Jews, Muslims and even people following their consciences - LG 16). Sounds all rather expansive and inclusive to me! Not so to you?

No. Rome has had talks with some Lutherans, also, but most of this is done with the intention of drawing those churches back under the Papal mantle. The 'Anglican Ordinariate' was another example of that kind of ruse. But the other churches usually seem more than willing to hope that these kinds of talks, which are painfully limited in scope, are entered into by the RCC with a real spirit of Ecumenism.

BNR32FAN · Jan 27, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
From the Sunday of Orthodoxy

To them who accept .... that there is an end to the torment or a restoration again of creation and of human affairs ... Anathema, Anathema, Anathema

Based on Matthew 7:21 and Luke 12:10 I have to agree.

GreekOrthodox · Jan 27, 2021

Magnanimity said:
I like that very much! It's rather hopeful, I think. To it, I'll add the following:

"Lord Jesus Christ, to save all mankind you stretched out your arms on the cross. Let our work be pleasing to you: may it proclaim your salvation to the world." -LOTH, Ordinary Time, 4th week, Wednesday Mid-afternoon prayer

Ah, but it's not just Hart, now is it? I don't know if you were aware that Catholicism's most preeminent theologians of the last century were like Ware or Hart regarding salvation. But, the link I provided you above gives a very long list of readings in universalism, most of whom are Orthodox authors. That doesn't settle the matter, of course. But, I think there can be no mistake about which way the theological wind is blowing on this issue.

I read through Jersak's list of Orthodox hymns. I read and chant the same hymns. I think he's stretching some of them especially when it comes to Resurrectional Apolytikia. For example,

When Thou didst descend to death, O Life Immortal, Thou didst slay hades with the radiance of Thy Divinity. And when Thou didst raise the dead from the lowest depths, all the hosts of heaven cried out: O Giver of Life! Christ our God! Glory to Thee!

These are all focused on the resurrection of Christ on the eighth day (in Orthodox terminology). I'd be reluctant to list these as promoting universalism certainty. Hopeful, maybe. But throughout the Liturgy, one of the litanies reads, "And let us ask for a Christian end to our life, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good defense before the awesome judgment seat of Christ." The communion prayers include these two

How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I should dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my vesture will condemn me, since it is not a wedding garment; and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. Cleanse, O Lord, the filth of my soul, and save me, as You are the one Who loves mankind. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul, and save me.

Master Who loves mankind, Lord Jesus Christ, my God, let not these Holy Gifts be to my judgment because I am unworthy, but rather for the purification and sanctification of both soul and body and the pledge of the life and Kingdom to come. It is good for me to cleave unto God and to place in Him the hope of my salvation.

The Liturgist · Jan 27, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
News to me! It would be a little hard to push for universalism considering it is condemned as heretical. There are some that do say, "I hope for universal reconciliation" like +Kallistos Ware. But that is as far as he goes.

So in recent years there has actually been a small but influential Universalist clique in some Eastern Orthodox churches, which became influential to the point where Fr. Andrew S. Damick felt compelled to denounce it on his blog Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. But it is definitely not a mainstream view.

prodromos · Jan 27, 2021

The Liturgist said:
So in recent years there has actually been a small but influential Universalist clique in some Eastern Orthodox churches, which became influential to the point where Fr. Andrew S. Damick felt compelled to denounce it on his blog Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. But it is definitely not a mainstream view.

Doctrine in the Orthodox Church is not a popularity contest. Arianism was very popular in the 4th century, but it was false teaching nonetheless.

Magnanimity · Jan 27, 2021

GreekOrthodox said:
I'd be reluctant to list these as promoting universalism certainty. Hopeful, maybe. But throughout the Liturgy, one of the litanies reads, "And let us ask for a Christian end to our life, peaceful, without shame and suffering, and for a good defense before the awesome judgment seat of Christ."

Sure. Even such a theological giant like Von Balthasar begins his book on the subject by noting that the sacred scriptures are very clear that we all stand "under judgment." So I sympathize with your hesitations on universalism. The speculations of Rahner and Hart are perhaps overconfident in their self-assurance.

But, I was stuck in the theology of Sts Augustine and (especially) Thomas Aquinas for a long time. Luckily, I discovered the Catholic Ressourcement a few years ago and have been soaking up many of the once-forgotten (to Catholics) theological geniuses of the East (Origen, Sts Gregory of Nyssa & Maximus the Confessor, Pseudo-Dionysius). I'm about as far as one could be from being well-read in these eastern patristics. But, from my own reading, I have concluded that eternal-Hell sits firmly within St Augustine's theology but seems quite alien to the eastern patristics I referenced above. It's not that the Fathers seem to have a problem with the notion of a Hell. The problem seems to be the Augustinian commitment that Hell must be forever and inescapable. It's at that juncture that some in the East (and I too) put on the theological brakes. Hang on a second there, St Augustine... Let's not go too crazy with this Hell thing.

zoidar · Jan 27, 2021

Albion said:
None that have been mentioned so far.

I heard, I think it was the Catholic teacher Tim Staples or Jimmy Akin, say that only Catholics can know they are in the boat, other Christians swim in the lake hoping they will get to the other side. It sounded a bit like only Catholics are saved for certain, but other Christians may or may not be saved. I don't know if that's the official teaching of the RCC.

Albion · Jan 27, 2021

zoidar said:
I heard, I think it was the Catholic teacher Tim Staples or Jimmy Akin, say that only Catholics can know they are in the boat, other Christians swim in the lake hoping they will get to the other side. It sounded a bit like only Catholics are saved for certain, but other Christians may or may not be saved. I don't know if that's the official teaching of the RCC.

Technically, it is not.

However, the Church did teach that idea in the past and it still teaches something that is close to it.

As a result, a lot of the members who are unable to handle theological fine points take to heart what their church does say about itself-- 1) that it's the only real church in God's eyes and 2) that it was uniquely founded by Christ himself to be his very own, to the exclusion of other Christian churches.

Naturally, these church members then tend to think, and then tell others, what you reported to us here.

Magnanimity · Jan 27, 2021

zoidar said:
I heard, I think it was the Catholic teacher Tim Staples or Jimmy Akin, say that only Catholics can know they are in the boat, other Christians swim in the lake hoping they will get to the other side.

Oh brother.. If that isn’t hubris, idk what is. Maybe one day they’ll switch the analogy to say that Catholics are on a yacht. All others are in varying sizes of fishing boats.

zoidar · Jan 27, 2021

Albion said:
Technically, it is not.

However, the Church did teach that in the past and it still teaches something that is close to it.

As a result, a lot of the members who are unable to handle theological fine points take to heart what their church does say about itself-- 1) that it's the only real church in God's eyes and 2) that it was uniquely founded by Christ himself to be his very own, to the exclusion of other Christians.

Naturally, these church members then tend to think, and then tell others, what you reported.

This gave me some answers (10 min video) :

Jimmy Akin:

"The Catholic understanding is that protestants are our brothers and sisters in Christ. All Christians who profess faith in Christ and are properly baptized are Christians. We are put in relationship with Jesus that scripture describes in terms as being members of his body. Different people have different degrees, or forms of incorporations of his body, though... "

ViaCrucis · Jan 27, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that there is salvation outside of the EOC. I believe only Roman Catholicism teaches that there is no salvation outside of the RCC.

It likely depends on how one interprets St. Cyprian's statement, "Salus extra ecclesiam non est", "There is no salvation outside of the Church".

-CryptoLutheran

Valletta · Jan 27, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
It likely depends on how one interprets St. Cyprian's statement, "Salus extra ecclesiam non est", "There is no salvation outside of the Church".

-CryptoLutheran

You don't have to interpret, the Catholic Catechism states Church teaching:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

A Question to all the Non Protestant High Churches

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