A Question Rgarding Embedded Age

[Subduction Zone]

Chapter and verse?

Nope, I already did. You would have to promise not to lie if I found them for you.

 

[dad]

Luke was hardly a "doctor". He might have been what they called a doctor in those days,

Exactly. He saw Jesus cure probably most of the diseases in Israel, and was out of a job!!

but today the average high school student probably knows more than he did.

They know less. Luke knew God.

By the way, from your claim it seems that Gabriel said nothing about Mary being a virgin.

When he heard Mary question him how she could have a baby having been with no man, and he said the baby was from God...that is exactly what was spoken about.

 

[Oncedeceived]

And when was that part of the bible written? You see, it isn't impressive if, say, the prophecy was already "fulfilled" before that prophecy was written down, because for all we know people made it up. Also, the less people are capable of actively making the prophecy come true, the more impressive it is.

Well fortunately for Christians, there were many such accusations about the predictions being made before the written word in the Bible. But thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls we have proof now that they were written prior to the events.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Well fortunately for Christians, there were many such accusations about the predictions being made before the written word in the Bible. But thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls we have proof now that they were written prior to the events.

No you don't, because many of those events could easily be facilitated on purpose by nutjobs. That, and how many buildings stand forever? How many empires survive the passage of time indefinitely?

 

[Oncedeceived]

No you don't, because many of those events could easily be facilitated on purpose by nutjobs. That, and how many buildings stand forever? How many empires survive the passage of time indefinitely?

You can hand wave is you want, you are being vague yourself.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You can hand wave is you want, you are being vague yourself.

Look, name 1 biblical prophecy which was provably written down a significant time before it was fulfilled, which was specific in how the event would occur, when it would occur, and who would do it (exclude if it could easily be done on purpose by people who wanted it to be fulfilled) which is supported beyond the bible so we have evidence it all actually happened.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Exactly. He saw Jesus cure probably most of the diseases in Israel, and was out of a job!!

Please, we have no valid reason to believe your tales from the Bible.

They know less. Luke knew God.

Nope at best Luke knew Jesus.

When he heard Mary question him how she could have a baby having been with no man, and he said the baby was from God...that is exactly what was spoken about.

That was the story that Luke made up. People make up stories all of the time, and yes, they even die for them. We already covered why a Greek speaker could mistranslate Hebrew.

 

[dad]

Nope, I already did. You would have to promise not to lie if I found them for you.

I seem to remember you tried before. You may have an embedded opinion of some age. Work on removal options.

 

[dad]

Look, name 1 biblical prophecy which was provably written down a significant time before it was fulfilled, which was specific in how the event would occur, when it would occur, and who would do it (exclude if it could easily be done on purpose by people who wanted it to be fulfilled) which is supported beyond the bible so we have evidence it all actually happened.

Not an educated approach. The prophets were known to have lived long long before prophesies started to be fulfilled in many cases. They usually also had some things in their time that God showed them that would soon be fulfilled to give them credos...so the far away stuff could be trusted.

 

[dad]

No you don't, because many of those events could easily be facilitated on purpose by nutjobs. That, and how many buildings stand forever? How many empires survive the passage of time indefinitely?

That just shows you are unfamiliar with the great details of what came down. Speaking of empires surviving, Israel was named as being here in the end times. Do you think Moab or Philistine or many other nations are still here??

The mark of bible prophesy is that despite twists and turns and things impossible to arrange or predict, the outcome is always always always right.

If we were to look at a lesser spirit, like Satan, predicting we would still have some things able to amaze some people. For example if some angel supposedly from God told Mohammad something like 'in the end time, the armies of Allah will march under a black flag, and conquer greatly much of the world for the wonderful final leader' or some such...(I am not very familiar with the actual prophesies regarding the black flag business we now see there) then we could simply have demons stirring people up as we have seen them do in the past. That would be contrived, but still fool those who are natural minded and know not God or His word.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not an educated approach. The prophets were known to have lived long long before prophesies started to be fulfilled in many cases. They usually also had some things in their time that God showed them that would soon be fulfilled to give them credos...so the far away stuff could be trusted.

Indeed.

This is one of my favorites ...

1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2Ki 23:15-20.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Look, name 1 biblical prophecy which was provably written down a significant time before it was fulfilled, which was specific in how the event would occur, when it would occur, and who would do it (exclude if it could easily be done on purpose by people who wanted it to be fulfilled) which is supported beyond the bible so we have evidence it all actually happened.

Ezekiel 4:3-6
... Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel. “Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. “After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.


el predicted when Israel would be re-established

Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
​

In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here’s a summary of Jeffrey’s theory:

1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.
2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.
3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible’s book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, Leviticus 26:21, Leviticus 26:24 and Leviticus 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.
4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.
5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
​

(In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment)


Jerusalem would become the world's most important religious site
Bible passage: Micah 4:1

Written: sometime between 750-686 BC

Fulfilled: Today
In Micah 4:1, the prophet said that the Temple mount in Jerusalem would become the focal point of the world. This prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. But, it is interesting to note that Jerusalem is, and has been for centuries, the world's most important religious site. Christians and Jews regard the city as the world's most important, and Christians and Jews comprise about one-third of the world's population. No other city in the world is a religious focal point to as many people.


10. Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 43:5-6

Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC

Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Isaiah 43:5-6, the prophet Isaiah said that the Jews would return to their homeland from the east, the west, the north and the south. Isaiah lived about 2700 years ago. At that time, the Assyrians had forced many Jews in the northern kingdom of Israel into exile. Those Jews were taken to other areas in the Middle East. Then, about 1900 years ago, the Romans destroyed the city of Jerusalem and killed and exiled hundreds of thousands of Jews. Since then, the Jews have been scattered to virtually every country in the world. But, during the past century, millions of Jews have returned to Israel, from the east, the west, the north and the south.
From the east: Many Jews living in the Middle East moved to Israel by the early 1900s.
From the west: During mid-1900s, hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the West (Europe and the United States) began moving to Israel.
From the north: The former Soviet Union (Russia) is north of Israel. It refused to allow its Jewish residents to move to Israel. But, after years of pressure from other countries, Russia finally began to allow Jews to return to Israel during the 1980s. So far, hundreds of thousands of Russian Jews have moved to Israel.
From the south: Ethiopia, which is south of Israel, also refused to allow its Jews to return to Israel. But, in 1985, Israel struck a deal with Ethiopia's communist government to allow the Jews of Ethiopia to move to Israel. On the weekend of May 25, 1991, 14,500 Ethiopian Jews were airlifted to Israel.
Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the north (Russia) and the south (Ethiopia) would have to be persuaded to give up their Jews. Many countries pressured Russia for years before it began to allow its Jews to leave. And Ethiopia had to be paid a ransom to allow its Jews to leave.
Isaiah's prophecy was also correct in saying that the Jews would return "from the ends of the earth," and Isaiah said that many centuries before the Jews had been scattered to the ends of the earth. During the past 100 years, Jews living as far east as China, as far west as the West Coast of the United States, as far north as Scandinavia, and as far south as South Africa, have moved to Israel.
Here is Isaiah 43:5-6
"Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, `Give them up!' and to the south, `Do not hold them back.' Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the ends of the earth…
​

 

[Subduction Zone]

The reason that all of the aforementioned prophecies fail being proper Biblical prophecies is that they have different interpretations by different sects. Now I can accept that a prophecy may not be apparent until after the event. But if it is not clear enough so that all agree upon what the event was the prophecy is worthless. By that standard Nostradamus is a Biblical prophet since some of his prophecies have "come true" several times.

Dates always have to be fudged. There is no clear date ever given. Fudging allows for multiple interpretations of the date.

 

[Oncedeceived]

The reason that all of the aforementioned prophecies fail being proper Biblical prophecies is that they have different interpretations by different sects. Now I can accept that a prophecy may not be apparent until after the event. But if it is not clear enough so that all agree upon what the event was the prophecy is worthless. By that standard Nostradamus is a Biblical prophet since some of his prophecies have "come true" several times.

Dates always have to be fudged. There is no clear date ever given. Fudging allows for multiple interpretations of the date.

Examples?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Examples?

Well, he did say "always".

So I would guess that you can pick any alledged prophecy, and if subduction is correct, there would be no clear date given in that prophecy.

Perhaps the fastest way to resolve this issue is for you to just come up with 1 prophecy where a clear date is given. Do you know of any?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Oncedecieved, on that prophecy, why would it only be the remaining time of the punishment, and not the whole thing? To me it seems that the punishment being multiplied by 7 would be the whole of the punishment, not the remaining portion. So that makes 430 times 7, not 360. Especially considering there would have been some pagans amongst them from the start. This means the "prophecy" wasn't fulfilled correctly as predicted. And if we go by the 360 day years, we have to count those for the previous years too, so it still wouldn't have been on that date

 

[Subduction Zone]

Examples?

I thought I gave you one. Remember how I said the Daniel prophecy with the weeks of years etc. is interpreted differently by many different sects. Some of them lead to different times of the crucifixion, they have many different interpretations for the time after the crucifixion. For example here is the Seventh Day Adventist version that is fairly unique:

The 2300-day Prophecy of the SDA Church Examined

Note, this is from an anti SDA author. I was not looking for one and merely grabbed the first example I saw, but it is close enough.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, he did say "always".

So I would guess that you can pick any alledged prophecy, and if subduction is correct, there would be no clear date given in that prophecy.

Perhaps the fastest way to resolve this issue is for you to just come up with 1 prophecy where a clear date is given. Do you know of any?

I was probably too strong saying "always". I should have said "almost always". The fact is that there are quite a few different interpretations of the Daniel prophecy. AV's is probably different from dad's, both of which will be different from Once's and everyone has a different version than Aman.

 

[RickG]

I was probably too strong saying "always". I should have said "almost always". The fact is that there are quite a few different interpretations of the Daniel prophecy. AV's is probably different from dad's, both of which will be different from Once's and everyone has a different version than Aman.

Aren't there 3 different versions of Daniel? All three of different length and portrayal of Daniel? That alone brings anything about Daniel into question, not to mention the rest of the Bible.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Oncedecieved, on that prophecy, why would it only be the remaining time of the punishment, and not the whole thing? To me it seems that the punishment being multiplied by 7 would be the whole of the punishment, not the remaining portion. So that makes 430 times 7, not 360. Especially considering there would have been some pagans amongst them from the start. This means the "prophecy" wasn't fulfilled correctly as predicted. And if we go by the 360 day years, we have to count those for the previous years too, so it still wouldn't have been on that date

I think this is the correct link. Biblical Studies