A Question on Adventism

[Byfaithalone1]

Are you saying adultery, lying, stealing, murder, idol worship, forgetting the Sabbath, having other Gods, coveting and so on is now okay?

If the Holy Spirit convicts you to do such things, yes. There are some, for example, who believe that God has convicted them to kill. I can't speak to such things unless I was the recipient of the conviction.

Whether or not it is "OK," it seems rather clear that all people are guilty of such things.

Do you believe that the existence of the law eliminates these behaviors?

You must have some pretty wild church services.

Actually, not really. I've seen some "celebration services" in the SDA church that were more wild. Why do you ask?

If you read the whole thing you will see that it was suppose to bring life and it will when the Spirit writes it on our hearts.

From my reading, it seems that the letters engraved on stones are the ministry that brings death. 2 Corinthians 3 contrasts this ministry with the ministry of the Spirit which brings life.

Everything you said is built on sand and has no substance. You are chasing the wind my friend.

You are free to reach your own conclusions regarding my understanding. I've never asked you to share my persective, and I won't start now. On one point I am quite clear -- there is much that I do not understand!

BFA

 

[Restin]

-- there is much that I do not understand!

BFA

....as well here, there is much I do not understand. I believe we will all be learning,
understanding more about the love and fellowship of Jesus Christ throughout eternity! ...R

 

[Kira Light]

I love the "Is sin okay?" debate. It better be or we are all damned. The belief that you can stop sinning, or even become any more righteous in the eyes of God is one of the most dangerous I can think of.

 

[VictorC]

I love the "Is sin okay?" debate. It better be or we are all damned. The belief that you can stop sinning, or even become any more righteous in the eyes of God is one of the most dangerous I can think of.

You are quite right.

 

[k4c]

I love the "Is sin okay?" debate. It better be or we are all damned. The belief that you can stop sinning, or even become any more righteous in the eyes of God is one of the most dangerous I can think of.

The goal is not to sin so it's not okay to sin even though we do sin so praise God for verses like these:

1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[k4c]

Hence you recognize that in the absence of a codified law that makes drunk driving a criminal offense you could have arrested someone for, the alleged transgression would have been a civil suit over property and personal damages only. No charge of drunk driving could be made without said criminal law.

Amen..God's grace brings mercy rather than punishment.

Let me sum up all your post in this one verse.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

 

[Kira Light]

The goal is not to sin so it's not okay to sin even though we do sin so praise God for verses like these:

1 John 2:1 My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is a bit hard to follow. Are you saying that we have to try as hard as we can for our entire lives to do something that we know is impossible? Isn't it a bit depressing to just fail over and over at something until you die?

 

[k4c]

This is a bit hard to follow. Are you saying that we have to try as hard as we can for our entire lives to do something that we know is impossible? Isn't it a bit depressing to just fail over and over at something until you die?

The warning that comes with sin is to not let it harden your heart. We don't have to try not to sin the desire not to sin will come automatically as we draw closer to God. Before salvation sin was no big deal but after salvation has come sin becomes an abomination to us. This all happens through a power working in us that is not of ourselves. I think you already know all this but you like to send me on wild goose chases and I fall for it every time...

 

[VictorC]

Amen..God's grace brings mercy rather than punishment.

I agree.
Recognize though that grace, mercy, and forgiveness are attributes of God that He didn't install into the law. Grace is antithetical to the law that demands blood, either from the transgressor or from the creature that shed its blood as atonement under the law.

Let me sum up all your post in this one verse.

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!

If you review this thread for the responses that you have offered me, you will find that you either summarized my post with a thought that didn't address what I have written, or else retort with something along the lines of "you don't believe the Bible", etc.

But while looking for something to counter the long list of points that remain to be addressed by you, you will discover that you haven't offered anything as a defense for your beliefs. Many points are repeats of ideas you have promoted in the past, that have been refuted for months or perhaps even as long as a year. The chair analogy is one of those responses that I kept in a file, as you have never answered it.

So, should we advocate sin?
No, of course not. And, I am not promoting sin.
The problem lies in that you have equated violation of the sabbath with sin, and you fail to recognize two pertinent facts:

• The sabbath doesn't exist outside the first covenant. Those redeemed from the law have entered into God's rest, and Scripture doesn't recognize any commandment to keep the sabbath.
• You don't acknowledge the law's language that specifies that you (under the law) are required to keep the law holy (Exodus 20:8). The rest of the law specifies all the requirements requisite to keep the sabbath holy, and that law requires a Levitical priesthood and burnt offerings. You haven't met the law's requirements concerning the sabbath, and the law doesn't support the truncated rendition you claim to abide by. While insisting that violating the sabbath is a sin, your own words condemn your own actions, for you have never kept the sabbath day holy once in your entire life.

I know that you aren't able to accept these points as long as being distinctive is more important to you than unity in the Biblical faith entrusted to us as Christians. But, you still have a huge laundry list of points you haven't offered a defense for, which is necessary in order for you to establish credibility in your belief system and soteriology.

Calling everyone who doesn't agree with you do unbelieving sinners only damages your credibility on the forum, and fails to lead to any honest discourse - which is probably what the owners of this discussion forum hoped it would be when they created it.

 

[k4c]

I agree.
Recognize though that grace, mercy, and forgiveness are attributes of God that He didn't install into the law. Grace is antithetical to the law that demands blood, either from the transgressor or from the creature that shed its blood as atonement under the law.

If you review this thread for the responses that you have offered me, you will find that you either summarized my post with a thought that didn't address what I have written, or else retort with something along the lines of "you don't believe the Bible", etc.

But while looking for something to counter the long list of points that remain to be addressed by you, you will discover that you haven't offered anything as a defense for your beliefs. Many points are repeats of ideas you have promoted in the past, that have been refuted for months or perhaps even as long as a year. The chair analogy is one of those responses that I kept in a file, as you have never answered it.

So, should we advocate sin?
No, of course not. And, I am not promoting sin.


The problem lies in that you have equated violation of the sabbath with sin, and you fail to recognize two pertinent facts:

• The sabbath doesn't exist outside the first covenant. Those redeemed from the law have entered into God's rest, and Scripture doesn't recognize any commandment to keep the sabbath.
• You don't acknowledge the law's language that specifies that you (under the law) are required to keep the law holy (Exodus 20:8). The rest of the law specifies all the requirements requisite to keep the sabbath holy, and that law requires a Levitical priesthood and burnt offerings. You haven't met the law's requirements concerning the sabbath, and the law doesn't support the truncated rendition you claim to abide by. While insisting that violating the sabbath is a sin, your own words condemn your own actions, for you have never kept the sabbath day holy once in your entire life.

I know that you aren't able to accept these points as long as being distinctive is more important to you than unity in the Biblical faith entrusted to us as Christians. But, you still have a huge laundry list of points you haven't offered a defense for, which is necessary in order for you to establish credibility in your belief system and soteriology.

Calling everyone who doesn't agree with you do unbelieving sinners only damages your credibility on the forum, and fails to lead to any honest discourse - which is problably what the owners of this discussion forum hoped it would be when they created it.

None of my posts have been refuted by you or anyone else. Oh, I admit you have a lot of fluff with no Biblical substance but it all amounts to nothing in the end. Sin is sin. I was sin before the Law and remains sin after the Law. You yourself say we should not sin, which is a statement that contradicts all your posts. I can only repeat what I already said...party on...

 

[Kira Light]

The warning that comes with sin is to not let it harden your heart. We don't have to try not to sin the desire not to sin will come automatically as we draw closer to God. Before salvation sin was no big deal but after salvation has come sin becomes an abomination to us. This all happens through a power working in us that is not of ourselves. I think you already know all this but you like to send me on wild goose chases and I fall for it every time...

I've heard various versions of this line of thinking, but I'm not trying to send you on a goose chase or waste your time

So, are you so close to God that you have no desire left to sin? How near perfection are you?

My view is that my salvation is 100% God's doing and 0% mine. There is nothing I can do to be any more righteous. If grace were not enough, I would be lost. The law shows me I need saving, not how to save myself.

 

[VictorC]

You poor, poor thing you really don't have a clue do you? You just make up things as you go along. None of my posts have been refuted by you or anyone else. Oh, I admit you have a lot of fluff with no Biblical substance but it all amounts to nothing in the end. Sin is sin. I was sin before the Law and remains sin after the Law. You yourself say we should not sin, which is a statement that contradicts all your posts. I can only repeat what I already said...party on...

This is resorting to a personal attack, another in a succession that shows that you have no defense to offer for the ideas you promote.

 

[k4c]

I've heard various versions of this line of thinking, but I'm not trying to send you on a goose chase or waste your time

So, are you so close to God that you have no desire left to sin? How near perfection are you?

My view is that my salvation is 100% God's doing and 0% mine. There is nothing I can do to be any more righteous. If grace were not enough, I would be lost. The law shows me I need saving, not how to save myself.

As long as I'm alive in this body I will have a desire to sin but also working within this body is another desire to be holy, which was not present prior to me receiving Christ.

Justification is 100% the work of Christ but we do have a part in the salvation process that consists of a past work (all Jesus), a daily walk (me and Jesus) and a future work (me and Jesus).

Listen to what Peter says about what we need to add to our faith once we have been purged from our past sins through Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:5-12 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Therefore I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things, though you know them, and are established in the present truth.

 

[k4c]

This is resorting to a personal attack, another in a succession that shows that you have no defense to offer for the ideas you promote.

Ditto..

 

[k4c]

The problem lies in that you have equated violation of the sabbath with sin, and you fail to recognize two pertinent facts:

• The sabbath doesn't exist outside the first covenant. Those redeemed from the law have entered into God's rest, and Scripture doesn't recognize any commandment to keep the sabbath.
• You don't acknowledge the law's language that specifies that you (under the law) are required to keep the law holy (Exodus 20:8). The rest of the law specifies all the requirements requisite to keep the sabbath holy, and that law requires a Levitical priesthood and burnt offerings. You haven't met the law's requirements concerning the sabbath, and the law doesn't support the truncated rendition you claim to abide by. While insisting that violating the sabbath is a sin, your own words condemn your own actions, for you have never kept the sabbath day holy once in your entire life.

Calling everyone who doesn't agree with you do unbelieving sinners only damages your credibility on the forum, and fails to lead to any honest discourse - which is probably what the owners of this discussion forum hoped it would be when they created it.

I guess I should respond to your points so you can sleep easy tonight.

The sabbath doesn't exist outside the first covenant. Those redeemed from the law have entered into God's rest, and Scripture doesn't recognize any commandment to keep the sabbath.

After the fall of man, man began a downward spiral away from God. God chose a people to bring His will to all mankind. After being in slavery with pagan people for hundreds of years they developed many of their pagan practices. One of the first things God did when He delivered them from bondage was He began to teach them His Sabbath (Exodus 16). The fact that they were not keeping it prior does not make the Sabbath invalid. We can get a glimps of God's people trying to cease from labor to worship God while in slavery but Pharaoh refused them rest.

Exodus 5:1-5 Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: `Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.' '' And Pharaoh said, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go.'' So they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days' journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.'' Then the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor.'' And Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are many now, and you make them rest from their labor!''

When the Sabbath was protected by God's Law at Mt.Sinai it wasn't the first time the Sabbath came to be. The Sabbath was revealed in the exodus, it wasn't given in the exodus.

Nehemiah 9:13-14 "You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.

To make the Sabbath known means it was already in existance it's just that they were not aware of it or they fell away from keeping it. This happens when God's people are under the influence of pagan slavery for hundreds of years. They even began seeking the gods of the pagans.

So you see, the Sabbath was created at creation. It was blessed, which means it's a joyous time. It was called holy, which means it's a unique time and it was sanctified, which means it's designated to God's purpose.

You don't acknowledge the law's language that specifies that you (under the law) are required to keep the law holy (Exodus 20:8). The rest of the law specifies all the requirements requisite to keep the sabbath holy, and that law requires a Levitical priesthood and burnt offerings. You haven't met the law's requirements concerning the sabbath, and the law doesn't support the truncated rendition you claim to abide by. While insisting that violating the sabbath is a sin, your own words condemn your own actions, for you have never kept the sabbath day holy once in your entire life.

The Sabbath was made at creation before sin was in the world. It was to be a joyous time. There was no need to burn offerings until after sin came into the world so it was not part of the original Sabbath. These offerings were all shadows that painted a picture of the life and work of Jesus. Since Jesus is our Lamb offering He has fulfilled all the shadows so there is no longer a need to sacrifice or burn an animal on any day of the week.

Hebrews 7:27 Jesus is not like the other high priests. He doesn't need to offer sacrifices every day for his own sins and later for the sins of the people, because Jesus offered himself once for all time.

We keep the Sabbath as it was meant to be kept at creation before sin was in the world and what a joy and blessing it is to honor God's will. He even protected the Sabbath by Law so His people can't be forced to work, as Pharaoh did, without the Pharaohs of today sinning against God.

And by they way, I have never called anyone an 'unbelieving sinner' for not agreeing with what I say. I only water, someone else fertalizes but it's God who brings the growth.

 

[Sophia7]

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

The sword is the word and with the name of Jesus comes the truth He represented and stands for, which is the will of the Father found in the words of Jesus.

John 12:50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.''

John 3:34 God sent Jesus. Jesus speaks the words of God, because God gave him the Spirit without limit.

It's the authority in words of truth from God that bring people to turn on each other and it's our love for Jesus who spoke these words that allow us to endure to the end. It's these things that bring people to turn against each other and the Devil to attack, not just a name Jesus. I know a few people named Jesus, as a matter of fact, I once arrested a man named Jesus for drunk driving.

The Bible does teach there is a diffence in fellowship with a brother/sister who is not living up to the standard of truth

Following Jesus does result in contention sometimes, but you're still ignoring the context of Jesus' statement, which is not about "a brother/sister who is not living up to the standard of truth."

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner not even to eat with such a person.

Where did the sin of covetous come from? It came from the Ten Commandments.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."

The Ten Commandments are like a chain with ten links, you break one, you've broken them all.

James 2:10-11 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery,'' also said, "Do not murder.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. ''

If you continue to break the one you become one who practices lawlessness.

Then you need to keep the whole law, not just the ten commandments, because that's what James and Paul were referring to. You're not living up to the standard of the law, k4c, if you separate the ten commandments from the rest of the law and pick and choose which parts you want to follow.

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Let's keep things in context. The immediate context of that statement is a warning about false prophets:

Matthew 7:15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' (NASB)
​

The larger context of that statement is the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus was getting ready to wrap up His sermon, and He concluded with these words:

Matt. 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."
28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.
​

Jesus' words in that context were not the ten commandments but all of the words that He spoke in that sermon, and the will of the Father is not the ten commandments either, as these texts show:

John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'"
32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 "For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
34 Then they said to Him, "Lord, always give us this bread."
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
___________________________________________________________

1 John 3:16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoever has the world's goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
19 We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him
20 in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
​

"We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us"--not by the ten commandments. His love and His Spirit living in us--not the ten commandments--are the standard of morality for those who believe in Him. We know by our love for others--not by keeping the ten commandments--"that we are of the truth."

Oh okay, I thought it did, thanks for telling me this. I guess I can now throw out the hundreds of years of fulfilled Bible prophecy because you say it didn't, thanks for clearing this up for me.

This is what Daniel 7:25 says:

'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
​

It says "in times and in law," not "in the ten commandments" or "in God's law."

Isaiah 56:6-7 As for the Gentiles, the outsiders who join the people of the Lord and serve him and love his name, and are his servants and don't desecrate the Sabbath, and have accepted his covenant and promises, I will bring them also to my holy mountain of Jerusalem, and make them full of joy within my House of Prayer.I will accept their sacrifices and offerings, for my Temple shall be called "A House of Prayer for All People''!

Take a look at a few verses from Isaiah 65 and 66 for context:

Isaiah 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
18 "But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
19 "I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21 "They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 "They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23 "They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them.
___________________________________________________________

Isaiah 66:20 "Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.
21 "I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.
22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD,
"So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 "And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
24 "Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
​

Will people really die at 100 in the new earth or be considered accursed if they don't make it to that age? Will there be priests and Levites in the new earth? Do you observe the New Moon as well as the Sabbath? Will we really spend our Sabbaths in the new earth going out to look at dead bodies? Perhaps you should rethink the context of Isaiah 56-66.

The Law did not change, only it's location. It went from being written on stone in the Old Covenant to being written on the heart in the New Covenant through the Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days, says the Lord, I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,'' says the Lord, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Let's continue reading in Hebrews 8:

11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
​

How would we all know Him under the new covenant? By having His Spirit living in our hearts. The ministry of the Spirit replaces the ministry of the letter. 2 Cor. 3 says that "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life" and that "the ministry of death, in letters engraved in stones"--the ten commandments--no longer have any glory because of the surpassing glory of the Spirit. Stone tablets are not eternal; neither are words written on them. They have faded away, but the Spirit remains and dwells in us and produces His fruit in us:

Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
​

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and righteousness of which the Law defines both.

Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, but He doesn't need the ten commandments to do so. God Himself dwells within us! He didn't do that under the old covenant. That's what changed; the new covenant is not a transfer of letters on stone to letters on hearts.

Once you allow Satan to open the door to change you give in to his plan to change everything that God calls holy, including the Old Covenant principle of marriage.

MINNEAPOLIS, Aug. 21 (UPI) - The largest U.S. Lutheran group voted Friday to allow homosexuals in committed relationships to become ministers. Delegates to the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America convention voted 559 to 451, The Washington Post reported.

Reporting from Los Angeles and Riverside - The Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles on Saturday elected the first openly gay bishop since the national church lifted a ban that kept gays out of its highest ordained ministry.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The word is called, God.

Don't fall for Satan's devices....

Ezekiel 22:26 "Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Matthew 24:11-13 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

2 Timothy 3:1-4 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Marriage is not an "Old Covenant principle." Besides, a principle is not the same thing as a set of specific commandments, given for a specific time period to a specific people, which is what the ten commandments were. They are not eternal moral principles. Consider the context of the verses that you quoted above, k4c, because they don't support your arguments.

 

[VictorC]

I guess I should respond to your points so you can sleep easy tonight.

You guess you should finally answer points after they've sat for a very long time.

After the fall of man, man began a downward spiral away from God. God chose a people to bring His will to all mankind. After being in slavery with pagan people for hundreds of years they developed many of their pagan practices. One of the first things God did when He delivered them from bondage was He began to teach them His Sabbath (Exodus 16). The fact that they were not keeping it prior does not make the Sabbath invalid. We can get a glimps of God's people trying to cease from labor to worship God while in slavery but Pharaoh refused them rest.

Exodus 5:1-5 Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, "Thus says the Lord God of Israel: `Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.' '' And Pharaoh said, "Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go.'' So they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Please, let us go three days' journey into the desert and sacrifice to the Lord our God, lest He fall upon us with pestilence or with the sword.'' Then the king of Egypt said to them, "Moses and Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to your labor.'' And Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are many now, and you make them rest from their labor!''

Read this passage again, with a bit more care. Moses wanted to lead Israel out on a three-day journey, offer sacrifices, and return. This is a "rest from their labor" that entailed nearly, if not an entire week. There isn't any hint of a sabbath in this account, and the sacrifices don't fit your mold of a creation origin that you introduce later.

When the Sabbath was protected by God's Law at Mt.Sinai it wasn't the first time the Sabbath came to be. The Sabbath was revealed in the exodus, it wasn't given in the exodus.

Nehemiah 9:13-14 "You came down also on Mount Sinai, and spoke with them from heaven, and gave them just ordinances and true laws, good statutes and commandments. You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, and commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, by the hand of Moses Your servant.

To make the Sabbath known means it was already in existance it's just that they were not aware of it or they fell away from keeping it. This happens when God's people are under the influence of pagan slavery for hundreds of years. They even began seeking the gods of the pagans.

False.
This is one of several proofs that shows the origin of the sabbath with Moses. The account in Exodus 16 records the first instance of the sabbath, which was ordained with the manna experience as a test to determine Israel's readiness for the covenant that would be dictated about a month later at Sinai (Exodus 16:4).

• The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.
• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath.
• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
• Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
• Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

So you see, the Sabbath was created at creation. It was blessed, which means it's a joyous time. It was called holy, which means it's a unique time and it was sanctified, which means it's designated to God's purpose.

Do you remember the second of the two points I introduced early in this thread, where Adventism departs from Biblical Christianity? Here it is again:

Adventism apologizes for the sabbath ordained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses, and never acknowledges our redemption from that first covenant. As Ellen White wrote, "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}. This is a classic soteriology based on works, a departure from the Biblical Gospel that affirms "God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" in Romans 11:32. In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon, and the temporal nature of the first covenant (ten commandments) is disregarded. The message contained in the Biblical Gospel of Christ's redemption and adoption as His purchased possession is missing in Adventism.

Your consistency with Ellen White's alleged authority makes your claim easily predictable: "In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon...". The Genesis account records God's rest, Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2, and His rest was referred to as a promise yet to be attained and another day differentiated from the sabbath that Israel already had for 1500 years.

The Sabbath was made at creation before sin was in the world.

Yet this remains a point of contention you cannot support, for the reason that you cannot distinguish God's permanent rest at creation from the sabbath "made for man" (Mark 2:27) that repeated over and over and didn't last.

It was to be a joyous time. There was no need to burn offerings until after sin came into the world so it was not part of the original Sabbath.

Return to your own quote from Exodus 5, above. You have contradicted the point that Moses wanted to lead Israel out for a sabbath, as his purpose was to offer a sacrifice and there is no mention of a sabbath.

These offerings were all shadows that painted a picture of the life and work of Jesus. Since Jesus is our Lamb offering He has fulfilled all the shadows so there is no longer a need to sacrifice or burn an animal on any day of the week.

Colossians 2:16-17 calls the sabbath itself a shadow:
16 ¶ So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
The very reason no one has grounds to judge another in respect of the dietary laws and convocations in the annual/monthly/weekly cycles is because the law that drove those was "wiped out" as mentioned 2 verses previous.

k4c, the sabbath is spread out all over the law in places you probably aren't aware of. If you end the jurisdiction of the book of the law, the sabbath comes to an end. If you end the jurisdiction of the ten commandments engraved on tablets of stone, the sabbath comes to an end. This is the nature of Israel's "one law" (Numbers 15:16), the is not divisible into "ceremonial" and "moral" precepts. If the "ceremonial" comes to an end, the sabbath doesn't exist anymore. That extends to the ordinances that mandated burnt offerings:

Hebrews 10
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Hebrews describes the change of covenants, from the first mediated by Moses to the second mediated by Jesus under a priesthood Moses never authorized. God has no pleasure in the burnt offerings required under the law, and that includes the sabbath. That very displeasure in the burnt offerings that God Himself ordained is linked again with His displeasure with the sabbath in Isaiah 1:

11 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.
12 "When you come to appear before Me, Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

God hates the shadows He ordained Himself! They were never intended to be permanent, but shadows ordained to reveal sin to us and drive us toward our Redeemer.
The sabbath itself was an appointed feast as shown in Leviticus 23:3.
The new moon and the sabbath are both mentioned in context, and both of these share one thing in common: they both mandate burnt offerings above the daily oblations, as specified in Numbers 28.

Hebrews 10:8-9, quoted above, shows God's Hand ending the sabbath forever when it was taken away with the first covenant.

Hebrews 7:27 Jesus is not like the other high priests. He doesn't need to offer sacrifices every day for his own sins and later for the sins of the people, because Jesus offered himself once for all time.

This is true, and consistent with Hebrews 7:27, but this has no relation to the burnt offerings nor the sabbath.

We keep the Sabbath as it was meant to be kept at creation before sin was in the world and what a joy and blessing it is to honor God's will. He even protected the Sabbath by Law so His people can't be forced to work, as Pharaoh did, without the Pharaohs of today sinning against God.

I had accurately predicted that you would insist on an origin of the sabbath in deference to Scripture's documentation regarding it. We can document when the sabbath began and ended, and document God's rest when it began and when we entered into His rest - but that rest hasn't ended and isn't going to.

And by they way, I have never called anyone an 'unbelieving sinner' for not agreeing with what I say. I only water, someone else fertalizes but it's God who brings the growth.

It would be a simple matter of quoting your own posts in this thread to show that you're bearing false witness, a violation of the very law inscribed onto tables of stone that you claim to have jurisdiction over you.
What does the law prescribe for that transgression, k4c?
Leviticus 4 defines your duty under the law. If Jesus Christ isn't your sufficient atonement, you need to resurrect the Levitical priesthood and fulfill the requirement for atonement yourself. There is no "second and final phase of atonement" as SDA Fundamental Belief #24 asserts.

 

[Joe67]

A valuable history.

Gen 20:3
3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. KJV

All the law is fullfilled in one Word.

Phil 2:12-14
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: KJV

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Joe,

This is an excellent passage. Thanks for posting it.

Phil 2:12-14
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: KJV

Joe

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

Read this passage again, with a bit more care. Moses wanted to lead Israel out on a three-day journey, offer sacrifices, and return. This is a "rest from their labor" that entailed nearly, if not an entire week. There isn't any hint of a sabbath in this account, and the sacrifices don't fit your mold of a creation origin that you introduce later.

False.

This is one of several proofs that shows the origin of the sabbath with Moses. The account in Exodus 16 records the first instance of the sabbath, which was ordained with the manna experience as a test to determine Israel's readiness for the covenant that would be dictated about a month later at Sinai (Exodus 16:4).

• The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.
• Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath.
• Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
• Jesus distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest recorded in the Genesis account when He said it was "made for man" in Mark 2:27.
• Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
• Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.

Do you remember the second of the two points I introduced early in this thread, where Adventism departs from Biblical Christianity? Here it is again:

Your consistency with Ellen White's alleged authority makes your claim easily predictable: "In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon...". The Genesis account records God's rest, Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2, and His rest was referred to as a promise yet to be attained and another day differentiated from the sabbath that Israel already had for 1500 years.

Yet this remains a point of contention you cannot support, for the reason that you cannot distinguish God's permanent rest at creation from the sabbath "made for man" (Mark 2:27) that repeated over and over and didn't last.

Return to your own quote from Exodus 5, above. You have contradicted the point that Moses wanted to lead Israel out for a sabbath, as his purpose was to offer a sacrifice and there is no mention of a sabbath.

Colossians 2:16-17 calls the sabbath itself a shadow:
16 ¶ So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
The very reason no one has grounds to judge another in respect of the dietary laws and convocations in the annual/monthly/weekly cycles is because the law that drove those was "wiped out" as mentioned 2 verses previous.

k4c, the sabbath is spread out all over the law in places you probably aren't aware of. If you end the jurisdiction of the book of the law, the sabbath comes to an end. If you end the jurisdiction of the ten commandments engraved on tablets of stone, the sabbath comes to an end. This is the nature of Israel's "one law" (Numbers 15:16), the is not divisible into "ceremonial" and "moral" precepts. If the "ceremonial" comes to an end, the sabbath doesn't exist anymore. That extends to the ordinances that mandated burnt offerings:

Hebrews 10
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
9 then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.

Hebrews describes the change of covenants, from the first mediated by Moses to the second mediated by Jesus under a priesthood Moses never authorized. God has no pleasure in the burnt offerings required under the law, and that includes the sabbath. That very displeasure in the burnt offerings that God Himself ordained is linked again with His displeasure with the sabbath in Isaiah 1:

11 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, Or of lambs or goats.
12 "When you come to appear before Me, Who has required this from your hand, To trample My courts?
13 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

God hates the shadows He ordained Himself! They were never intended to be permanent, but shadows ordained to reveal sin to us and drive us toward our Redeemer.
The sabbath itself was an appointed feast as shown in Leviticus 23:3.
The new moon and the sabbath are both mentioned in context, and both of these share one thing in common: they both mandate burnt offerings above the daily oblations, as specified in Numbers 28.

Hebrews 10:8-9, quoted above, shows God's Hand ending the sabbath forever when it was taken away with the first covenant.

This is true, and consistent with Hebrews 7:27, but this has no relation to the burnt offerings nor the sabbath.

I had accurately predicted that you would insist on an origin of the sabbath in deference to Scripture's documentation regarding it. We can document when the sabbath began and ended, and document God's rest when it began and when we entered into His rest - but that rest hasn't ended and isn't going to.

It would be a simple matter of quoting your own posts in this thread to show that you're bearing false witness, a violation of the very law inscribed onto tables of stone that you claim to have jurisdiction over you.
What does the law prescribe for that transgression, k4c?
Leviticus 4 defines your duty under the law. If Jesus Christ isn't your sufficient atonement, you need to resurrect the Levitical priesthood and fulfill the requirement for atonement yourself. There is no "second and final phase of atonement" as SDA Fundamental Belief #24 asserts.

You beat me to making almost the same rebuttals