A Question on Adventism

[Byfaithalone1]

True - and Christianity teaches about a God who killed almost all of His children with a global flood and is sending a bunch to hell at some point in the future. The distortions in Adventism are just a unique flavor of the distortions in much of Christianity.

If we believe that God is violent, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to point fingers at people who believe God is violent differently. (not directing that toward you BFA)

I will have to say the berry thing has been most handy when hiking and backpacking, however.

I propose that the berry thing wasn't worth the price, though I am thrilled to worship a God who can work in the lives of adults to unteach that which we mislearn as children.

As a pre-teen, the focus of my education was not only about a violent God but also about violent people who would one day hate and torment me because I was a Seventh-day Adventist. Though the by-product of my training may have been unintentional, I received the message that I should view all non-SDAs with distrust and that I should distance myself from them. I was particularly shown a spirit of hatred toward Catholicism.

Are there correlations between these problems and the problems that exist in other denominations? Possibly. If there is such a correlation, does it lessen my concern about sending my children to the SDA church I attended as a child? No, it really doesn't.

BFA

 

[BigRedBus]

When I was a pre-teen, my sabbath school teacher provided mock trials during which I (and my peers) was asked to defend our sabbath keeping or face the electric chair. On another sabbath, we were taught the types of berries, roots, etc. that weren't poisonous and other "survive in a cave" skills. My teacher read books to us such as The Appearing in which end time events are depicted and sabbath keepers are brutalized and tortured.

I'm not suggesting that my reality is the same reality experienced by all SDA pre-teens, and I acknowledge that I attended a particularly "historic" SDA church. This is the same church that my parents still attend. This is the same church that my children do not attend.

BFA

One of the things that makes this type of religious hatred particularly insidious is the way it gets taught by people in an authority role, and who are presumably seen as being trustworthy. They have an impressionable audience and they abuse their position.

Wes, I’m guessing this isn’t the type of thing you want your children being exposed to. Let’s say you do allow your children to go to your mother in law’s church. Do you have any way of getting agreement from her that she will ensure your children are protected from hearing these types of ideas until you decide they are old enough to make up their own minds? Don’t know how you’d police it unless you were there yourself, though. How strong do you think your negotiating position is?

Do you know if these views are common in that particular church? The problem is that they might not be officially supported by the leadership any more but they circulate unofficially, making it a very hard issue to control. That’s my perception here in England, anyway. Inciting Religious Hatred is now a criminal offence here, which I’m sure has had an effect on the official line.

 

[Kira Light]

When I was a pre-teen, my sabbath school teacher provided mock trials during which I (and my peers) was asked to defend our sabbath keeping or face the electric chair. On another sabbath, we were taught the types of berries, roots, etc. that weren't poisonous and other "survive in a cave" skills. My teacher read books to us such as The Appearing in which end time events are depicted and sabbath keepers are brutalized and tortured.

I'm not suggesting that my reality is the same reality experienced by all SDA pre-teens, and I acknowledge that I attended a particularly "historic" SDA church. This is the same church that my parents still attend. This is the same church that my children do not attend.

BFA

All sounds very familiar to me. Nowadays I just feel kind of annoyed that my parents let crazy people put insane ideas in my head.

 

[VictorC]

I am married to a woman who was brought up in a Fundamental SDA Church. She no longer is a participant, but her Mother is a devout SDA. She treats my wife (her daughter) like an outsider and seems to feel like life is glum, morose, and painful.

Wes, do you remember that I had mentioned before that this form of estrangment is symptomatic of a larger problem? Those who have experienced an upbringing inside Adventism illustrate the larger problem that lurks out of view to most of us who take an academic approach:

I received the message that I should view all non-SDAs with distrust and that I should distance myself from them. I was particularly shown a spirit of hatred toward Catholicism.

This is the reason your mother-in-law treats your wife like an outsider.
Instead of a daughter to be cherished, your wife has become an "outsider" who should be viewed with a certain form of distrust.

Why the distrust? See for yourself:

I remember being a kid in my SDA Sabbath school and learning things like the government is building concentration camps in the desert that they are gonna send the SDA's to very soon when they pass a Sunday law. I heard tons of stuff about the Pope and the US government putting marks on our hand and head for going to church on Saturday. These marks wouldn't let us buy food so we were gonna run to the mountains if we could. No one seemed very prepared for any of this so it was basically like we were just waiting around to be killed for going to church on Saturday. I also remember some discussions about the 144,000 and if that was literal. Like maybe only 144,000 of the SDA's are actually good ones and the rest are fakers. Was a serious discussion one Saturday when I was a kid.

When I was a pre-teen, my sabbath school teacher provided mock trials during which I (and my peers) was asked to defend our sabbath keeping or face the electric chair. On another sabbath, we were taught the types of berries, roots, etc. that weren't poisonous and other "survive in a cave" skills. My teacher read books to us such as The Appearing in which end time events are depicted and sabbath keepers are brutalized and tortured.

The unique eschatology that Adventism promotes is responsible for their distrust of others outside that system, with a focus on those going to church on Sunday - because they have identified Christians going to church on Sunday as the ones who are going to track them down and kill them over a Sunday law that can't possibly violate a sabbath that doesn't exist. Their theological errors lead to eschatological error, and the error poisons relationships that should be cherished.

I can't help but wonder about the connection between "she treats my wife like an outsider" and the errors that caused it.

Bottom line from those who have been raised inside Adventism:

Get your kids out. Now.

At some time difficult -and painful- decisions are going to be forced on you and your wife.

 

[k4c]

When I was a pre-teen, my sabbath school teacher provided mock trials during which I (and my peers) was asked to defend our sabbath keeping or face the electric chair. On another sabbath, we were taught the types of berries, roots, etc. that weren't poisonous and other "survive in a cave" skills. My teacher read books to us such as The Appearing in which end time events are depicted and sabbath keepers are brutalized and tortured.

I'm not suggesting that my reality is the same reality experienced by all SDA pre-teens, and I acknowledge that I attended a particularly "historic" SDA church. This is the same church that my parents still attend. This is the same church that my children do not attend.

BFA

All denominations teach and believe that something is going to happen to believers in the last days, the Bible is clear on that, so it not something unique to the SDA. The only problem is that the persecution will be against those who are keeping the commandments of God and who have the testamony of Jesus. If you don't keep and promote keeping the commandments of God then you might very well be the persecutor rather than the persecuted.

http://exposingantichrist.com/Persecution.html

 

[VictorC]

All denominations teach and believe that something is going to happen to believers in the last days, the Bible is clear on that, so it not something unique to the SDA. The only problem is that the persecution will be against those who are keeping the commandments of God and who have the testamony of Jesus. If you don't keep and promote keeping the commandments of God then you might very well be the persecutor rather than the persecuted.

There isn't any link between your use of argumentum ad populum and Adventism's soteriology based on your own works.

Adventism apologizes for the sabbath ordained in the first covenant mediated in the hands of Moses, and never acknowledges our redemption from that first covenant. As Ellen White wrote, "It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord" in {6T 356.4}. This is a classic soteriology based on works, a departure from the Biblical Gospel that affirms "God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" in Romans 11:32. In order to support this thesis concerning the sabbath, an origin for the sabbath in contradiction to Scripture is insisted upon, and the temporal nature of the first covenant (ten commandments) is disregarded. The message contained in the Biblical Gospel of Christ's redemption and adoption as His purchased possession is missing in Adventism.

Adventism isn't interested in the commandments of God, because that system has replaced them with the first covenant.

 

[k4c]

There isn't any link between your use of argumentum ad populum and Adventism's soteriology based on your own works.

Adventism isn't interested in the commandments of God, because that system has replaced them with the first covenant.

Do you have an obsession with EGW?

No one can know who will be in the kingdom accept for God. God will judge the hearts, in other words, the secret things of man, in the end. He knows the motives and intents of the heart. If one willfully refuses to keep any one of the commandments or lives a self-righteous and self-center life God will know. Now if a person knows the Sabbath truth and rejects it, that sin can grow into a hardness of heart, which is the warning that God gives pertaining to sin.

Hebrews 3:12-13 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,'' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Sorry, I forgot you don't receive the Bible, or at least when it comes against your beliefs.

 

[VictorC]

Do you have an obsession with EGW?

No, I don't.

No one can know who will be in the kingdom accept for God. God will judge the hearts, in other words, the secret things of man, in the end. He knows the motives and intents of the heart. If one willfully refuses to keep any one of the commandments or lives a self-righteous and self-center life God will know. Now if a person knows the Sabbath truth and rejects it, that sin can grow into a hardness of heart, which is the warning that God gives pertaining to sin.

Hebrews 3:12-13 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,'' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

This same chapter and the one following describes God's rest, that was a promise yet to attain (Hebrews 4:1) and another day (Hebrews 4:8) that the recipients had not acheived by the 1500-year tenure of the sabbath. Now, you equated rejection of the sabbath truth with sin in your comments above, and yet you refuse to acknowledge your sin because you have rejected the sabbath truth found in Scripture. As Matthew 12:37 quotes Jesus, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned".

Sorry, I forgot you don't receive the Bible, or at least when it comes against your beliefs.

This is a personal attack that is not only false, but an infraction of the rules you agreed to abide by. It is noteworthy to see that those dependent on their own works for justification are the very ones unable to follow rules and laws. There is a spiritual lesson here I hope someday you discern.

 

[Avonia]

I propose that the berry thing wasn't worth the price

Yes, the berry learning could have happened sans dogma.

As a pre-teen, the focus of my education was not only about a violent God but also about violent people who would one day hate and torment me because I was a Seventh-day Adventist.

This us/other consciousness expresses though a world view of helplessness. There's nothing we can do about it, other than dread it.

Are there correlations between these problems and the problems that exist in other denominations? Possibly. If there is such a correlation, does it lessen my concern about sending my children to the SDA church I attended as a child? No, it really doesn't.
BFA

I have a child in an SDA school who understands that the world view SDAs hold is not the only one. But my child has interacted with a fairly broad array of world views. So I've never had the sense that I must "counter" SDA teachings. But I have had a sense that I can help provide opportunities to learn what some SDAs have not learned. Or what some Christians have not learned. Or what some "fill in the blank" have not learned.

I have never said a word about the view some SDAs have of Catholics, but my child does not have a negative view of Catholics. Even with exposure to some of the distortions you experienced. And I experienced. But I do sense there is some understanding of where that view comes from - and its significance to many SDAs.

I wonder if we tend to hyper-control as parents and spend too much time trying to keep things out, and too little time helping our children develop the ability to make good choices on their own. Whether they embrace our beliefs or not.

 

[Avonia]

Sorry, I forgot you don't receive the Bible, or at least when it comes against your beliefs.

I don't see that as a very kind or accurate thing to say to Victor. Especially when he has taken such care with his study.

 

[Sophia7]

Now then, back to the issue of my children; I am still caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe it is my duty as a loving husband to encourage my wife to make amends with her Mother.

Being sort of an idealist, I believe that the "family bond" can overcome almost anything. Am I wrong in that assumption? I also want my Mother-in-law to be part of my children's lives.

Many Adventists view non-Adventists as outsiders, as you said that your mother-in-law views your wife. However, often former Adventists are viewed as even worse than never-been Adventists because they knew "the truth" but rejected it and left Adventism. I say this as a former Adventist myself. My parents are not traditional Adventists, and I don't think my dad cares that much that we left the SDA Church, but my mom does. One of my sisters is a very conservative Adventist, and she thinks that we're on our way to hell because we no longer observe the Sabbath, as does my husband's grandma. There's nothing we can do to change that, and we don't often talk about doctrinal issues with our families anymore unless they ask us about something. We do spend time with them, but there is always some underlying tension because of our differences in beliefs now. Because of the remnant mentality of Adventism, you may not be able to help your wife make amends with her mother completely. That doesn't mean that they can't have a relationship, but it's different, and there may have to be some boundaries, especially when it comes to your children.

My fear is that her love and support is contingent on the fundamental beliefs within her faith.

If it is, you can't change her, and your wife can't change her. Romans 12:18 says, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." Sometimes it depends on the other person. We can't make people be at peace with us. If she chooses to estrange herself from you and your wife apart from trying to indoctrinate your children, you may not be able to have the kind of relationship with her that you want unless God softens her heart.

I guess I'm trying to rationalize this by allowing the children to attend the church now, because they are not at a point where their critical thinking skills are developed. In other words, my heart tells me it's not harmful now, but my brain tells me I need to put a stop to this. What do you think?

Children are so easily influenced when they are young. Even when I was an Adventist and my kids were preschoolers, I tried to protect them from certain aspects of Adventist indoctrination. That has made leaving a little easier. We left about two-and-a-half years ago, and our kids are nine, eight and eight (twins) now. We still visit an Adventist church occasionally, and I don't have a problem with letting them go to Sabbath School on those visits. Grandma's church is a fairly progressive SDA Church. Still, I would not want to send them there too often because it's hard to avoid the indoctrination even in a non-traditional Adventist environment. The good thing is that you as a parent have more influence over them than their Sabbath School teachers or Sunday School teachers, and you can use opportunities when they hear things that you disagree with to teach them. It's just hard if you have to do that all the time. This is not an Adventist-only problem; I still sometimes have to explain things to my kids when they hear something in Sunday School that I don't agree with. However, the remnant mentality of traditional Adventism and the distorted gospel that I believe traditional Adventism teaches are more extreme than most objectionable things that I've heard in other churches, and I would not want my children exposed to that regularly. I think it would be worse for them now, when they are so young and impressionable, than it would if they were older and more spiritually mature.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

All denominations teach and believe that something is going to happen to believers in the last days,

Not true.

it not something unique to the SDA.

True. Certain groups also espouse catastrophic end time conspiracy theories as does SDAism.

The only problem is that the persecution will be against those who are keeping the commandments of God and who have the testamony of Jesus. If you don't keep and promote keeping the commandments of God then you might very well be the persecutor rather than the persecuted.

You seem to imply that "the dragon" as described in Revelation 17 represents people (i.e. people make war with the rest of her children). Is that truly your interpretation of "the dragon?" Who makes war? Is the dragon a person, or a group of people?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I wonder if we tend to hyper-control as parents and spend too much time trying to keep things out, and too little time helping our children develop the ability to make good choices on their own. Whether they embrace our beliefs or not.

Perhaps. I do see some evidence to support that. However, there are risks that parents seek to remediate. Parents may select "safe neighborhoods," child-proof their home, limit access to "R" rated movies or stock their pantries with only healthy food. How do we know when a choice represents hyper-control? I propose the following:

• If there is no risk of harm, remedial steps may represent hyper-control.
• If there is minimal risk of harm, remedial steps may represent hyper-control.
• If there is a significant risk of harm, remedial steps may not represent hyper-control.

How do we decide? Perhaps the answer is found in better understanding the reality of the situation and using that information to evaluate the risk of harm. For example, our decision not to send the kids to a specific SDA church was based on first-hand knowledge of the environment that exists in that church. We weighed the risks and evaluated the potential benefits and consequences. We determined that there was a significant risk of harm and we made decisions accordingly. It would be hard to evaluate whether this represents hyper-control without first considering all of the factors that we considered.

These are personal, delicate and challenging decisions that involve a number of important factors. There are no "one size fits all" answers.

I have a child in an SDA school who understands that the world view SDAs hold is not the only one. But my child has interacted with a fairly broad array of world views. So I've never had the sense that I must "counter" SDA teachings.

I've had some pretty interesting discussions with my 8 year old. She notices that her grandparents have a very different lifestyle and level of openness. When she asks questions, we answer them. It usually starts with "why does grandma do that." We respond "grandma does that because she believes [ fill in the blank ]." Sometimes she will ask "do you believe that too?" If she does, we will explain what my wife and I believe. There isn't any judgment; only a description of a difference. I don't know if you view that as "countering" SDA teachings. In my mind, our daughter is doing the important work of processing the reality of her family of origin. It is part of what she will need to understand as she begins to process who she is and who she wants to become. She need not attend an SDA church to notice that there are differences between mommy and daddy and grandma and grandpa.

I have never said a word about the view some SDAs have of Catholics, but my child does not have a negative view of Catholics. Even with exposure to some of the distortions you experienced. And I experienced. But I do sense there is some understanding of where that view comes from - and its significance to many SDAs.

There will come a day when my kids will decide for themselves whether they want to attend their grandparents' church. If they do, I'll be interested to talk with them about their perceptions.

BFA

 

[Sophia7]

I've had some pretty interesting discussions with my 8 year old. She notices that her grandparents have a very different lifestyle and level of openness. When she asks questions, we answer them. It usually starts with "why does grandma do that." We respond "grandma does that because she believes [ fill in the blank ]." Sometimes she will ask "do you believe that too?" If she does, we will explain what my wife and I believe. There isn't any judgment; only a description of a difference. I don't know if you view that as "countering" SDA teachings. In my mind, our daughter is doing the important work of processing the reality of her family of origin. It is part of what she will need to understand as she begins to process who she is and who she wants to become. She need not attend an SDA church to notice that there are differences between mommy and daddy and grandma and grandpa.

My kids do the same thing. Many of the discussions that I have with them about beliefs happen because they observe things and ask questions, such as about why we do certain things differently than their grandparents. In regard to our current church, they mention things that they hear in Sunday School when they remember that I've told them something different, and I view it as an opportunity to explain to them why I believe a certain way. Often it's a challenge to put it in terms that they can understand. I try not to turn it into a judgmental kind of thing because I don't want them to become self-righteous, but I do think that it's important to teach my kids what I believe and why I believe it. I suppose all parents indoctrinate their children to some extent--whether in denomination-specific or Christian-specific teachings or other worldviews. I don't think that necessarily constitutes "hyper-control." I believe that it is our responsibility as parents to teach our children and to protect them from harm although others may believe differently about what that means than I do. Like you, I would perceive a significant risk in raising my children in an Adventist environment, which was a big factor in my decision to leave.

 

[Joe67]

1 Tim 2:15
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. KJV

This is our hope. When the children reach their 30's the intensity grows.

Joe

 

[Avonia]

I would perceive a significant risk in raising my children in an Adventist environment, which was a big factor in my decision to leave.

There will come a day when my kids will decide for themselves whether they want to attend their grandparents' church. If they do, I'll be interested to talk with them about their perceptions.

If there's one thing that's clear from my time on this forum, it's that some of us had quite different experiences than others in Adventism. I wonder if this gap is getting bigger or smaller. Interesting.

Sophia and BFA, I view my child's religious education (SDA) as a very small part of "spiritual education" - for lack of a better phrase. So, having participated in a great variety of things, there are clearly some aspects of every philosophical/religious system I am personally more in resonance with than others. Adventism and Christianity are no exceptions - as my posts have probably suggested.

Having said that, my family travels a lot and participates in many varied circles - something that other children in our church do not as much. So, if the only "input" was SDA, I would probably pause a bit more than I currently am. For the reasons you've stated.

I struggled with whether to consider Adventist education, but ultimately went that way because of some really good teachers I knew well.

I don't know how long my child will participate in the Adventist community. And I don't know how long I will either. So, I'm pretty far from a SDA zealot and may error on the side of assuming others are pretty far away as well. Which, as both of you point out, may not be the case.

I would probably have moments of cringing if I was actually sitting in on the class.

 

[Sophia7]

If there's one thing that's clear from my time on this forum, it's that some of us had quite different experiences than others in Adventism. I wonder if this gap is getting bigger or smaller. Interesting.

Sophia and BFA, I view my child's religious education (SDA) as a very small part of "spiritual education" - for lack of a better phrase. So, having participated in a great variety of things, there are clearly some aspects of every philosophical/religious system I am personally more in resonance with than others. Adventism and Christianity are no exceptions - as my posts have probably suggested.

Having said that, my family travels a lot and participates in many varied circles - something that other children in our church do not as much. So, if the only "input" was SDA, I would probably pause a bit more than I currently am. For the reasons you've stated.

I struggled with whether to consider Adventist education, but ultimately went that way because of some really good teachers I knew well.

I don't know how long my child will participate in the Adventist community. And I don't know how long I will either. So, I'm pretty far from a SDA zealot and may error on the side of assuming others are pretty far away as well. Which, as both of you point out, may not be the case.

I would probably have moments of cringing if I was actually sitting in on the class.

I can understand that, especially having come from a non-traditional SDA background myself, and I do think that the negative aspects would be minimized somewhat by participation in other circles. They were for me as I was growing up anyway. I didn't experience wilderness-survival classes and berry-eating training and that sort of thing. In fact, my involvement with other Adventist kids and my participation in Adventist youth programs were very limited. Still, I would be reluctant to put my kids in Adventist schools or even other Christian schools (even if they were not so expensive). It was in Adventist schools that I was exposed to the most indoctrination as a child for the few years that I was enrolled in them, and my college experience was great in many ways, but it did give me some baggage that I had to sort out later. I was always glad that I went to public high school rather than academy even though I was rather lonely in church as a teenager. I don't think that kids need to be isolated from the rest of the world; they just need our guidance as they learn to live in it.

 

[Avonia]

I don't think that kids need to be isolated from the rest of the world; they just need our guidance as they learn to live in it.

Super well said.

 

[Laodicean]

wow, what a blunder I've made! I just got through reading this thread and realize that I totally misjudged the nature of this particular forum. I've embarrassied myself and it's all my fault. I should have read more extensively before jumping in with my first post. Indeed, I should have recognized the signals in the responses I was getting.

And y'all were polite enough not to point out my faux pas. Really, I had chosen to post to the Progressive/Moderate Adventists forum, thinking that, hey, here I can relax a bit, I'm coming home to a family of SDA believers. Ouch. Not so at all! I think I've spent too much time around non-SDAs to the point that I've lost touch with what's happening in the SDA world and its peripheries. The SDA title can cover a LOT more territory than I have taken the time to learn about!

Really, folks, I truly thought that any forum that bore the name SDA must be the equivalent of family, and I felt that, for a change, I could relax and share like beliefs and/or fresh insights peculiar to my background. What a mistake. I kinda wish that this forum had been labeled more correctly as maybe Disappointed ex-SDAs, or Annoyed ex-SDAs, or Disillusioned SDAs, or some other title that would better describe what this forum is all about.

Instead I came skipping cluelessly in among you guys, wishing everyone a Happy Sabbath. I should have read this forum a little longer before opening my big mouth -- er I mean, my big keyboard -- ouch ouch ouch.

Oh, well, so I have not "come home" after all. I feel that I'm right back out in the world, from whence I've come, and now I will no longer take things for granted. But still, I'm sure there's much we can talk about, just in a different context, is all.

Well, I've had a long, hard day and am turning in now. Maybe I will be able to share my experiences in the church tomorrow or come Sabbath -- or would that be Saturday to you-all? Yikes....

 

[Kira Light]

wow, what a blunder I've made! I just got through reading this thread and realize that I totally misjudged the nature of this particular forum. I've embarrassied myself and it's all my fault. I should have read more extensively before jumping in with my first post. Indeed, I should have recognized the signals in the responses I was getting.

And y'all were polite enough not to point out my faux pas. Really, I had chosen to post to the Progressive/Moderate Adventists forum, thinking that, hey, here I can relax a bit, I'm coming home to a family of SDA believers. Ouch. Not so at all! I think I've spent too much time around non-SDAs to the point that I've lost touch with what's happening in the SDA world and its peripheries. The SDA title can cover a LOT more territory than I have taken the time to learn about!

Really, folks, I truly thought that any forum that bore the name SDA must be the equivalent of family, and I felt that, for a change, I could relax and share like beliefs and/or fresh insights peculiar to my background. What a mistake. I kinda wish that this forum had been labeled more correctly as maybe Disappointed ex-SDAs, or Annoyed ex-SDAs, or Disillusioned SDAs, or some other title that would better describe what this forum is all about.

Instead I came skipping cluelessly in among you guys, wishing everyone a Happy Sabbath. I should have read this forum a little longer before opening my big mouth -- er I mean, my big keyboard -- ouch ouch ouch.

Oh, well, so I have not "come home" after all. I feel that I'm right back out in the world, from whence I've come, and now I will no longer take things for granted. But still, I'm sure there's much we can talk about, just in a different context, is all.

Well, I've had a long, hard day and am turning in now. Maybe I will be able to share my experiences in the church tomorrow or come Sabbath -- or would that be Saturday to you-all? Yikes....

I am one of the disappointed, disillusioned, annoyed ex-adventists, and I actually had a similar experience here. I got into a debate about how Christians should address homosexuality thinking the people here believed the Bible was true. After countless posts I came to find out I was talking to people who believe the Bible is distorted and corrupt and cannot be trusted.

I felt like, hey I could go anywhere else on the internet if I wanted to talk to people who don't believe in the Bible! So yea, I get what you're saying. It might even be good to label this forum differently. There are still some good discussions here but most revolve around piling on k4c until he dusts his sandals off. He keeps coming back for more though