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A question I don't think creationists will answer.

Subduction Zone

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The issue is with the atheistic approach to creation, how humanity was created from a single life form from long long ago. Not common descent, not abiogenesis, but what force, power, process, mechanism created humanity.

Why do you think humanity is something special? It seems that you are making the logical error of special pleading.

And you did not answer my question. How is the teaching any different between the two? The approach to teaching gravity is atheistic. The approach to teaching atomic theory is atheistic. The approach to teaching of all science that I know of is atheistic. God is not invoked for any of them. So what is the big deal with the theory of evolution?
 
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lifepsyop

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The issue is with the atheistic approach to creation, how humanity was created from a single life form from long long ago. Not common descent, not abiogenesis, but what force, power, process, mechanism created humanity.

One of the key developers of the "modern evolutionary synthesis" (neo-darwinism) was Theodosius Dhobzansky, who was heavily influenced by the works of Pierre Tielhard de Chardin.

Chardin believed that the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness. Like all committed evolutionists, he believed in a mysterious intrinsic "principle" of the universe that facilitates evolutionary progressions with time.

This is the type of 'creationism' that evolutionists believe in, and is the magical thinking found at the foundation of their belief system.

Evolution is just a flavor of pantheism, really.
 
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Subduction Zone

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One of the key developers of the "modern evolutionary synthesis" (neo-darwinism) was Theodosius Dhobzansky, who was heavily influenced by the works of Pierre Tielhard de Chardin.

Chardin believed that the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness. Like all committed evolutionists, he believed in a mysterious intrinsic "principle" of the universe that facilitates evolutionary progressions with time.

This is the type of 'creationism' that evolutionists believe in, and is the magical thinking found at the foundation of their belief system.

Evolution is just a flavor of pantheism, really.


Please, that is clearly not so. Where are your links to support such a preposterous claim? Unlike justlook I know what a baseless claim is.
 
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justlookinla

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Why do you think humanity is something special? It seems that you are making the logical error of special pleading.

Doesn't matter how special I think humanity is, humanity didn't exist at one time, now it does. It was created somehow, somewhere, at some time. The issue is creationism.

And you did not answer my question. How is the teaching any different between the two? The approach to teaching gravity is atheistic. The approach to teaching atomic theory is atheistic. The approach to teaching of all science that I know of is atheistic. God is not invoked for any of them. So what is the big deal with the theory of evolution?

Your question wasn't related to how, where or when humanity was created. If you wish to discuss physical science apart from creationism, there's a forum for that on this board also.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Doesn't matter how special I think humanity is, humanity didn't exist at one time, now it does. It was created somehow, somewhere, at some time. The issue is creationism.
No, you are making the logical error of assuming the conclusion. The fact that at one time there were not humans and then there were does not mean they were "created". Perhaps if you used proper terminology we could discuss this since when you use your own definition of words no one know what you mean for sure. Is it the burden of using proper terminology so that we can understand your argument such an overwhelming burden?



Your question wasn't related to how, where or when humanity was created. If you wish to discuss physical science apart from creationism, there's a forum for that on this board also.


See, again you are using terminology incorrectly. You are either assuming the result or using poor English. Again, is it a burden that you cannot meet to argue properly?
 
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bhsmte

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One of the key developers of the "modern evolutionary synthesis" (neo-darwinism) was Theodosius Dhobzansky, who was heavily influenced by the works of Pierre Tielhard de Chardin.

Chardin believed that the universe is constantly developing towards higher levels of material complexity and consciousness. Like all committed evolutionists, he believed in a mysterious intrinsic "principle" of the universe that facilitates evolutionary progressions with time.

This is the type of 'creationism' that evolutionists believe in, and is the magical thinking found at the foundation of their belief system.

Evolution is just a flavor of pantheism, really.

Can you direct us to where Dhobzansky pointed to creationism in his work?

Also, were you aware that Dhobzansky believed that God used evolution, similar to the beliefs of Francis Collins?
 
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justlookinla

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No, you are making the logical error of assuming the conclusion. The fact that at one time there were not humans and then there were does not mean they were "created".

Sure it does. Something caused the creation of humans.

Perhaps if you used proper terminology we could discuss this since when you use your own definition of words no one know what you mean for sure. Is it the burden of using proper terminology so that we can understand your argument such an overwhelming burden?

cre·a·tion
krēˈāSHən/Submit
noun
1.
the action or process of bringing something into existence.
"the creation of a coalition government"
synonyms: establishment, formation, foundation, initiation, institution, inauguration, constitution;


See, again you are using terminology incorrectly. You are either assuming the result or using poor English. Again, is it a burden that you cannot meet to argue properly?

I'm using terminology which provides explanation to concepts.
 
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bhsmte

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Sure it does. Something caused the creation of humans.



cre·a·tion
krēˈāSHən/Submit
noun
1.
the action or process of bringing something into existence.
"the creation of a coalition government"
synonyms: establishment, formation, foundation, initiation, institution, inauguration, constitution;




I'm using terminology which provides explanation to concepts.

Well, we have objective evidence as to how humans evolved from life forms and it remains to be seen how the first life came to be, but give it a little time, as people are working in that and making progress.

In the meantime, feel free to insert God as to the initiator of the first life on earth.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Sure it does. Something caused the creation of humans.

Once again the logic error is assuming the result. Evolution is not creation by definition. Try to use proper English.


cre·a·tion
krēˈāSHən/Submit
noun
1.
the action or process of bringing something into existence.
"the creation of a coalition government"
synonyms: establishment, formation, foundation, initiation, institution, inauguration, constitution;




I'm using terminology which provides explanation to concepts.

No, you are trying to use a common English definition and applying it to a scientific argument. That is merely a semantic trick that will fool no one.

It is a loser's ploy. You know that you cannot properly argue against evolution so you are spamming and derailing. You might as well admit defeat every time you use that term.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Well, we have objective evidence as to how humans evolved from life forms and it remains to be seen how the first life came to be, but give it a little time, as people are working in that and making progress.

In the meantime, feel free to insert God as to the initiator of the first life on earth.

He won't admit it but it seems that he believes the Adam and Eve myth. He thinks that if he can win a semantic argument that gives support for his belief.

Hmm, perhaps we should concentrate on why the Adam and Eve myth is wrong.
 
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justlookinla

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Well, we have objective evidence as to how humans evolved from life forms and it remains to be seen how the first life came to be, but give it a little time, as people are working in that and making progress.

In the meantime, feel free to insert God as to the initiator of the first life on earth.

No, this isn't about abiogenesis. Again, this is about by what mechanism, force, power or process that created humanity from a single life form from long long ago.
 
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DerelictJunction

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The very act of humanity being created from a previous life form only by naturalistic mechanism is creationism.
I suppose you think that was some kind of rebuttal to what I wrote. Sorry, it's not.
The definition of Darwinism addresses the question of how humanity was created from a single life form from long long ago.

From Wikipedia.....

"all species of organisms arise and develop through the natural selection of small, inherited variations"​
Well, that's 0 for 2. Did ya notice that the words "creation" and "creationism" are notably absent from the definition?
It seems to be your position that it's "inappropriate and contrived", but in actuality it's simply recognizing the fact that humanity was created where humanity did not exist before the inherently atheistic process of Darwinist creationism created humanity.
Actually, the definition for Darwinism says "developed". No "created" in there. You did read the definition you wrote, didn't you?
You can continue with your attempt to change the issue to common descent, but the issue is going to remain the same. How was humanity created. In the classrooms today, the students are taught that they are the creation, the result, the product of only, completely, totally, solely naturalistic processes acting on a single life form from long long ago. Their creator, their existence is only, completely, totally, solely a random, mindless, meaningless, purposeless (other than procreation) and directionless mechanism.
Evidence please. Can you supply a textbook or lesson plan from a public school that states "...only, completely, totally, solely naturalistic processes..." or "...their existence is only, completely, totally, solely a random, mindless, meaningless, purposeless (other than procreation) and directionless mechanism"? If you cannot, then this is a baseless assertion.
You're continually attempting to divert the issue from creationism.
And you're continually showcasing your poor reading comprehension skills.
But it is taught in school, per my post above.
You have provided no evidence to support your tirade above nor this baseless assertion.
Has science found evidence that humanity is totally, completely, solely, totally the creation of naturalistic mechanisms acting on a single life form from long long ago? Not at all. Nothing. Zero.
This is a lie. You have been provided evidence that supports this. You say it is not evidence but provide no reasoning or counter-evidence, so the evidence stands despite your denial.
The question is, why should they be taught a creationist theory without any evidence for the creationist theory?
They are not being taught a creationist theory. No mention of a god or other entity. This is a creation vs evolution site. The people espousing the hypotheses that a god was involved in the creation of humanity and all other things are called creationists. That means the atheist view of evolution is not a creationist view. Don't like that? Take it up with all the creationist websites on the web.
You are wrong...so wrong we have to get another map.
I'm pushing for the educational system to drop the creationist viewpoint of Darwinist creationism.
They don't teach the creationist viewpoint. However, let's go out on a fragile limb and say they were teaching atheistic evolution. What would you have them replace it with?
You have no evidence that humanity was created only, solely, totally, completely by naturalistic mechanisms.
Another statement that you have been shown is untrue. Going for a record?
How about focusing on what's occurring even as we discuss this. The atheist agenda is taking children and teaching a Godless creationist viewpoint to them as truth, as fact, as the only creationist viewpoint allowed to be taught.
They are not being taught that God does not exist. The theory of evolution through mutation and natural selection is the only theory that has evidence supporting it. (Cue: "Nuh-uh")
I think you're reverting to a very very common behavior seen on the forum by the Darwinist camp when they can't control the conversation. Ridicule. Mockery.
Since you don't provide cogent responses to my posts, I feel a little mockery is in order. Give me something of substance to respond to and the mockery machine will slow down.
There's not been on whit of evidence given for the creationist view that humanity is only, totally, completely, solely the result of naturalistic mechanisms acting on a life form from long long ago.
What is very common is the attempt to respond with an effort to change the focus from that to another issue within the Darwinist worldview.
That's three in one post! Technically, they are all the same lie, but we'll give you credit for the attempt. I'm sure if you try harder you can beat the record. Plus this one is accompanied by a reiteration of your inability to comprehend simple comparisons.
Right. And this is respectful?.......

"Better yet, let's simply "convince" non-Christians that they need to believe on Christ. We could employ a bunch of people for just that purpose...even give them special uniforms. I like the colors scarlet and black. What d'ya think?"​
That wasn't an insult to Christianity or it's adherents. That was entirely meant for you, alone. I respect Christianity.
And this is just a mild example of the typical mockery, ridicule and personal attacks on Christians who hold a different creationist view than the atheistic creationist view.
No Just you. It takes a particularly incalcitrant person to bring me to this level.
This isn't "mere disagreement".....

"Better yet, let's simply "convince" non-Christians that they need to believe on Christ. We could employ a bunch of people for just that purpose...even give them special uniforms. I like the colors scarlet and black. What d'ya think?"​
Liked it so much, you printed it twice. Does it strike a chord in you?
I'm sorry if some take it as an insult, it's not used insultingly, it's not used derisively, it's used to present a certain creationist viewpoint which I've explained over and over.
This doesn't ring true either. You have been told that the phrase is not only incorrect and nonsensical but that it is also derisive and insulting. So, I'm gonna have to chalk this up as lie number 4. I could be wrong though and you are just not able to see when you are derisive and insulting despite being told directly.
 
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Subduction Zone

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No, this isn't about abiogenesis. Again, this is about by what mechanism, force, power or process that created humanity from a single life form from long long ago.

Improper use of terminology on your part merely confuses the debate.

You can use proper terms if you try. You should ask yourself if Jesus would be this hypocritical.
 
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justlookinla

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Once again the logic error is assuming the result. Evolution is not creation by definition. Try to use proper English.

Humanity existing where it never existed before is creation. How was humanity created?

No, you are trying to use a common English definition and applying it to a scientific argument. That is merely a semantic trick that will fool no one.

It is a loser's ploy. You know that you cannot properly argue against evolution so you are spamming and derailing. You might as well admit defeat every time you use that term.

I'm taking the view that humanity was created by entirely, solely, completely naturalistic mechanisms acting on a life form from long long ago and questioning it.
 
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DerelictJunction

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Humanity existing where it never existed before is creation. How was humanity created?
It developed from an ape ancestor species.
I'm taking the view that humanity was created by entirely, solely, completely naturalistic mechanisms acting on a life form from long long ago and questioning it.
No, you're denying it. Not the same thing.

Questioning it would require that you actually provide evidence that counters it.
 
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Dizredux

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I think you're reverting to a very very common behavior seen on the forum by the Darwinist camp when they can't control the conversation. Ridicule. Mockery.
Anyone who insists that natural selection, the weather, volcanoes and earthquakes are random should expect some mockery or at least some subdued giggles.

Dizredux
 
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Subduction Zone

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Humanity existing where it never existed before is creation. How was humanity created?



I'm taking the view that humanity was created by entirely, solely, completely naturalistic mechanisms acting on a life form from long long ago and questioning it.

Simple, humanity wasn't created, it evolved.

And no, you are trying to play semantic games and are questioning evolution. You are not questioning any aspect of creation at all.

This would be much clearer if you would use proper terminology, but then you know that. You know you would have lost long ago.
 
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bhsmte

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Humanity existing where it never existed before is creation. How was humanity created?



I'm taking the view that humanity was created by entirely, solely, completely naturalistic mechanisms acting on a life form from long long ago and questioning it.

You are free to have your personal views. And, we are free to point out how your views are indeed; "personal" and not based on the TOE or what is says.

IMO, this has been pointed out quite well, but you can keep on if you like, as that is more a reflection on you personally, than it is on what the TOE states or does not state.
 
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justlookinla

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I suppose you think that was some kind of rebuttal to what I wrote. Sorry, it's not.

That's you subjective view.

Well, that's 0 for 2. Did ya notice that the words "creation" and "creationism" are notably absent from the definition?
Actually, the definition for Darwinism says "developed". No "created" in there. You did read the definition you wrote, didn't you?

Yes I did. The creation concepts are very well presented in the Darwinist view of how humanity was created.

Evidence please. Can you supply a textbook or lesson plan from a public school that states "...only, completely, totally, solely naturalistic processes..." or "...their existence is only, completely, totally, solely a random, mindless, meaningless, purposeless (other than procreation) and directionless mechanism"? If you cannot, then this is a baseless assertion.
And you're continually showcasing your poor reading comprehension skills.
You have provided no evidence to support your tirade above nor this baseless assertion.

There is no other impetus allowed or presented other than the naturalistic impetus for all of life we observe today. The view that naturalistic processes alone, completely, totally, solely, only are needed to create humanity is at the very core of the inherently atheistic Darwinist creationist view. I can find no other impetus allowed, permitted or considered other than the inherently atheistic Darwinist creationist view. If you know of any, I'd certainly be interested in seeing them.

This is a lie. You have been provided evidence that supports this. You say it is not evidence but provide no reasoning or counter-evidence, so the evidence stands despite your denial.

Nope, it's the truth. Science has not found evidence that humanity is totally, completely, solely, totally the creation of naturalistic mechanisms acting on a single life form from long long ago. Post it, if you think it has. Remember, don't respond with your typical common descent evasion, remember the issue is about what, or who, created humanity where humanity did not exist before.

They are not being taught a creationist theory.

Yes they are. Humanity did not exist at a point in time, now it exists. This existence of humanity is only explained by the naturalistic mechanisms creating humanity from a single life form of long long ago according to the Darwinist creationism model being presented in schools.

Sure it's a creationist viewpoint. An inherently atheistic viewpoint.

No mention of a god or other entity.

Exactly. The mention is that the only explanation, the only impetus needed to create humanity, is that you, children, are the result of entirely naturalistic mechanisms acting on a single life form from long long ago. And then they're taught the error that there is evidence for the creationist view.

This is a creation vs evolution site. The people espousing the hypotheses that a god was involved in the creation of humanity and all other things are called creationists. That means the atheist view of evolution is not a creationist view. Don't like that? Take it up with all the creationist websites on the web.

Depends on one's view of creation and evolution. I accept evolution. I don't accept the inherently atheistic viewpoint of Darwinist creationism.

are wrong...so wrong we have to get another map.
They don't teach the creationist viewpoint. However, let's go out on a fragile limb and say they were teaching atheistic evolution. What would you have them replace it with?

Nothing. Why replace it with anything?

Another statement that you have been shown is untrue. Going for a record?
They are not being taught that God does not exist.

They are taught that all of the variety and complexity of life we observe today is the result, totally, completely, only, solely by naturalistic mechanisms acting on a single life form from long long ago. I've pointed this out probabaly a hundred times now. The message is clear, God isn't needed or allowed or permitted or accepted in the creation of the complex and varied life forms we observe today. It's an inherently atheistic viewpoint of creation.

The theory of evolution through mutation and natural selection is the only theory that has evidence supporting it. (Cue: "Nuh-uh")

Ignoring your continual mockery, the fact remains, not a single shred of evidence is given that only naturalistic mechanisms created all the complex and varied life forms we observe today.

Since you don't provide cogent responses to my posts, I feel a little mockery is in order.

Ok.

Give me something of substance to respond to and the mockery machine will slow down.

No, continue with your mockery. It makes you feel better doesn't it? If so, by all means do it.

That's three in one post! Technically, they are all the same lie, but we'll give you credit for the attempt. I'm sure if you try harder you can beat the record. Plus this one is accompanied by a reiteration of your inability to comprehend simple comparisons.

Nothing of substance there, move on.

That wasn't an insult to Christianity or it's adherents. That was entirely meant for you, alone. I respect Christianity.
No Just you. It takes a particularly incalcitrant person to bring me to this level.

Right, your behavior is my fault, not yours. I understand.

Liked it so much, you printed it twice. Does it strike a chord in you?
This doesn't ring true either. You have been told that the phrase is not only incorrect and nonsensical but that it is also derisive and insulting. So, I'm gonna have to chalk this up as lie number 4. I could be wrong though and you are just not able to see when you are derisive and insulting despite being told directly.

Two words. Darwinist creationism.

You will continue to see those. Unless you ignore me, of course.
 
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