A Question for Trinitarians

[ZoneChaos]

WHy can't Trinitrarians simply be honest and say that the Trinity doctrine teaches THREE Gods

We are being honest when we say it does not teach 3 different gods.

(that's what "person" or "being" actually means, doesn't it?)

"Person" means "being of the full nature of a devine being"?  Can you show this to be true, Ed?

Can you show that "person", when applied to a "member" of the trinity, must mean that theynare indeed a seperate God unto themselves?
  

  [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by MadHermit
Ed -

Can it be assumed then that you would not consider Jesus to be divine?

Or, are you saying that Jesus is God in disguise?

MadHermit,

Regardless of what you mean by the word "divine," I believe that Jesus is a MAN because Jesus said so himself (John 8:40). I also believe that the FATHER is the ONLY true God because again, Jesus said so himself (John 17:3).

Now, using the little intelligence that God gave me, I believe that Jesus is NOT God for two reasons:

1) Jesus is a MAN; and

2) The Father is the ONLY true God.

Therefore, the SON cannot be God.

Maybe you're wondering why I should believe Jesus INSTEAD of the Catholic Council of Nicea which AFFIRMED the DEITY of Jesus in 325 AD.

Jesus says that whoever believes in him is NOT condemned. But anyone who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18). Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Thus, I believe everything he says is TRUE.

Ed

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by edpobre



Jesus says that whoever believes in him is NOT condemned. But anyone who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18). Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Thus, I believe everything he says is TRUE.

Hi edpobre,

Just to clarify this, the 3:18 passage is Jesus saying "Believe what I say or be condemned," isn't it, and not "Believe that I am the Son of God or be condemned"?

 

[cougan]

Originally posted by edpobre
Originally posted by cougan


What you are saying is this: a "person" is a "being" and with regards to the Trinity doctrine, these  THREE "beings" are referred to as God (SINGULAR)  who are separate and distinct from each other.  What is a "person" or "being?"

Is "person" or"being" an egg?

Is "person" or "being" wter?

Is "person " or "being" ice?

Is "person" or "being" steam?

Is "person" or "being" plasma?

What is a "being?"

What is your point with these questions? A person or being is not an egg, water, ice, steam or plasma. You are bringing up all these things because people use these earthly objects to illustrate how there can be 3 in 1. There is not any example that will perfectly represent the GodHead but these are good illustrations to understand the concept. I already answered you question about what is a person/being. Pay attention this time. By person I mean self-rational, self conscious beings having will or volition who may act or be acted upon.

You say that the word "God" is a name of the divine nature or quality of being. The Bible teaches that God CREATED man (Gen. 1:27). You are therefore saying that it was divine nature or the quality of being that created man, right? When God said "let us make man in our image," are you saying that it was divine nature or quality of being who was talking? Don't you think this is absurd?

I say that the word God is the single word that DESCRIBES who the CREATOR of the world is because it was God who CREATED everything. And it was God who CREATED man. Like MAN is the single word that DESCRIBES God's last CREATION before He rested on the 7th day.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Notice in the very 1st verse in the bible the word GOD is plural in the hebrew. So when God said Let us make man in our own image you again can see more than 1 being part of God/deity. As someone else has already pointed out this plurity in deity created man in their own image (singular). You can see this them use this plurality in Gen 3:23 and 11:7. What is you answer for this plurality? It is not refering to the angels because they were created Neh 9:6 and Ps 148:2-5.  Oh yeah I am still waiting for you to explain this verse away that clearly shows there is at least 2 in the GodHead.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Maybe this illustration will help. Just think about how their is just one body Eph 4:4 which is the church. Then in 1cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also <I>is </I>Christ. We are many members but we&nbsp;are still 1 body. Then Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:5 So we, <I>being </I>many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. We&nbsp;have different funtions within&nbsp;this 1 body. Then in&nbsp;Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. We see that we are equal in this one body. Do you see the reflection of the GodHead with this example? The Father, son, and Holy Spirit are all equally Deity but they have different roles. The Father is the planner the son is the executer of these plans and the HS is the organizer and power behind the miracles.

Would this be the SAME as saying that a man walking a Labrador, a Terrier and a Pitbull is walking "A" dog because all 3 DOGS possess the nature, attributes or characteristics of a DOG? Would I be correct in saying that "A" MAN died at the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001 because ALL those who dieds possessed the nature, attributes or characteristics of a MAN?

WHy can't Trinitrarians simply be honest and say that the Trinity doctrine teaches THREE Gods (that's what "person" or "being" actually means, doesn't it?) who are COLLECTIVELY called ONE God to appear MONOTHEISTIC and avoid being called POLYTHEISTIC or PAGANISTIC?

You can try and try to put words or thoughts into our mouths but we do not and never will proclaim that there are 3 GODS. The bible just does not teach that. Why would Jesus command the disciples to baptize people in the name of the Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost if they were not part of each other that make up the GodHead (Mat 28:19)? Why would the Holy Spirit be included in this if he is only the active force of God as you proclaim? Perhaps it will help if I show other verses that mention all 3 in one verse.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit <I>be </I>with you all. Amen.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.



Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

1cort 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.

I say again, Trinitarians are NOT Christians!

Ed

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Thats an awfully bold statement. A Christian is a follower of Christ. If we are not followers of Christ what are we? If anyone is in danger it is you since you deny the deity of Christ. I have pointed this verse out to you before but here it is again. John 8:23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am (he)<I>, </I>you will die in your sins."

Jesus tells us that he was from above and then tells us that if we do not believe that he is the I AM (to be, selfexistent) that you will die in your sins. The word he was added in and should not be there. It should be in italics in your bible. You see Ed I did'nt have to proclaim that you were this or that. The bible speaks loud and clear that if you do not believe that Jesus is I AM you will die in your sins. I hope this has been helpful to you and will get you to seriously think about this.

God Bless.

&nbsp;

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by David Gould
Hi edpobre,

Just to clarify this, the 3:18 passage is Jesus saying "Believe what I say or be condemned," isn't it, and not "Believe that I am the Son of God or be condemned"?

David,

John 3:18 does Not say "Believe what I say or be condemned." Neither does it say "Believe that I'm the Son of God or be condemned." But it is important to believe what Jesus says and also believe that he is the Son of God.

Apostle John wrote: "but these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the CHRIST, the SON of God (not GOD the son), and that BELIEVING you may have life in his name" (John 20:31).

Jesus explined what he meant in John 3:18 when he said: "But why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do NOT do the things which I SAY" (Luke 6:46)?

Did Jesus say he is the SON of God? Yes (John 10:36). Did he sy God was his Father? Yes (John 5:18). Is Jesus the Father and the Son at the same time? No! Is Jesus and the Father ONE and the SAME? No.

Ed

&nbsp;

 

[Pastor N.B.]

Originally posted by edpobre
MadHermit,

Regardless of what you mean by the word "divine," I believe that Jesus is a MAN because Jesus said so himself (John 8:40). I also believe that the FATHER is the ONLY true God because again, Jesus said so himself (John 17:3).

Now, using the little intelligence that God gave me, I believe that Jesus is NOT God for two reasons:

1) Jesus is a MAN; and

2) The Father is the ONLY true God.

Therefore, the SON cannot be God.

Maybe you're wondering why I should believe Jesus INSTEAD of&nbsp;the Catholic Council of Nicea which AFFIRMED the DEITY of Jesus in 325 AD.
****
Pastor N.B. here: (Catholics think abortion is murder too, are they wrong?)
But on the other thought, perhaps we get confused because we have a problem understanding Rom. 4:17's last part? In fact God (The GodHeard) did & does call the Son [to be], a 'Son', before & after the [PLAN] was actually put into effect. That plan called for Christ to become God and man both at the same time. The [PLAN] was brought forth with Christ the Son! (God/man!)

Let me just toss this out for testing ones 'thinking'? Eternal? How long is that? Both the Gospel & The Covenant are said to be everlasting! (ETERNAL) That takes us quite some time back, huh? Heaven itself! Other World's' as in the plural! Angels that rebelled too! Interesting! ( for me at least)----P/N/B/
****
Jesus says that whoever believes in him is NOT condemned. But anyone who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18). Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Thus, I believe everything he says is TRUE.

Ed

 

[DecepticonZ]

Hey edpobre,

I'm just wonderin how can Jesus, who you said is just a man, be a savior?

this is an honest question. Thanks.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by DecepticonZ
Hey edpobre,

I'm just wonderin how can Jesus, who you said is just a man, be a savior?

this is an honest question. Thanks.

DecepticonZ,

I was NOT the one who said that Jesus is just a man. It was Jesus himself who said this. He said he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).&nbsp; Therefore, Jesus is just a MAN - not God/man.

God MADE Jesus our Savior (Acts 5:31).&nbsp; He CREATED in himself ONE new man (Eph. 2:15) composed of himself as HEAD and the church as his BODY (Col. 1:18). Christ purchased the church with his own blood (Acts 20:28). Christ GAVE his life for the church (Eph. 5:25). Christ is the SAVIOR of the church, his body (Eph. 5:23).

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by cougan

What is your point with these questions? A person or being is not an egg, water, ice, steam or plasma. You are bringing up all these things because people use these earthly objects to illustrate how there can be 3 in 1. There is not any example that will perfectly represent the GodHead but these are good illustrations to understand the concept. I already answered you question about what is a person/being. Pay attention this time. By person I mean self-rational, self conscious beings having will or volition who may act or be acted upon.

If by "person" you mean "self-rational, self conscious beings having will or volition who may act or be acted upon"&nbsp; then&nbsp; what are "beings?" What are these "self-rational and self-conscious beings?" Since you call the first "person" or "being" God the Father, you call the second "person" or "being" God theSon and you call the third "person" or "being" God the Holy Spirit, isn't "person" or "being" God

Why do Trinitarians HIDE behind the word "person" or "being" when what they call "person" or "being" is God? Why don't they come clean and say what they actually mean - that the Trinity is THREE Gods in ONE God? What are they ASHAMED of?

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Notice in the very 1st verse in the bible the word GOD is plural in the hebrew. So when God said Let us make man in our own image you again can see more than 1 being part of God/deity. As someone else has already pointed out this plurity in deity created man in their own image (singular). You can see this them use this plurality in Gen 3:23 and 11:7. What is you answer for this plurality? It is not refering to the angels because they were created Neh 9:6 and Ps 148:2-5.&nbsp; Oh yeah I am still waiting for you to explain this verse away that clearly shows there is at least 2 in the GodHead.

The word ELOHIM is a "plural in majesty," meaning, a form of respect. The spanish pronoun "you" is used in plural form when addressing an elder and respected person. Thus, instead of "tu" (singular), the plural form "usted" is used to address older and respected persons.

When God said "Let us make man in our image, He was talking to "living creatures" or cherubims. This is evidenced by the FACT that when God DROVE Adam and Eve OUT of the garden of Eden, He placed "living creatures" or cherubims at the east gate of Eden (Gen. 3:24).

If you think that "living creatures" cannot talk, read Rev. 4:8.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Maybe this illustration will help. Just think about how their is just one body Eph 4:4 which is the church. Then in 1cor 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also <I>is </I>Christ. We are many members but we&nbsp;are still 1 body. Then Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:5 So we, <I>being </I>many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. We&nbsp;have different funtions within&nbsp;this 1 body. Then in&nbsp;Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. We see that we are equal in this one body. Do you see the reflection of the GodHead with this example? The Father, son, and Holy Spirit are all equally Deity but they have different roles. The Father is the planner the son is the executer of these plans and the HS is the organizer and power behind the miracles.

The Bible teaches that Christ is the HEAD&nbsp; of the BODY, the church (Col. 1:18). The BODY has many members who are individually members of one another. This is NOT the&nbsp;SAME as God. God is ONE and is NOT a body. God does NOT have members like the church.&nbsp;In your illustration, who is the HEAD?

Jesus CLEARLY teaches that the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God. Why do you INSIST on making God a "THREE-headed /bodied monster?"&nbsp;

You can try and try to put words or thoughts into our mouths but we do not and never will proclaim that there are 3 GODS. The bible just does not teach that.

Of course you will never proclaim that there are three Gods because that is not what the Bible teaches. But proclaiming and believing are two different matters. You say you do not proclaim but you believe that there are THREE Gods in ONE.

You call the Father God. That's one. You call the Son God. That's two. You call the Holy Spirit God. That's three.&nbsp;And you say &nbsp;you do not proclaim that you believe in three Gods. Does that make you TRUTHFUL?&nbsp;Who arte you kidding my friend? Not&nbsp;I!&nbsp;

Why would Jesus command the disciples to baptize people in the name of the Father, The son, and The Holy Ghost if they were not part of each other that make up the GodHead (Mat 28:19)? Why would the Holy Spirit be included in this if he is only the active force of God as you proclaim?

Regardless of what Jesus' reasons are, it is NOT because all THREE are Gods. The Bible CLEARLY teaches that Jesus is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Your assumption that the THREE must be Gods because Jesus commanded to baptize in their name is FALSE and contradicts what Jesus TAUGHT.

Thats an awfully bold statement. A Christian is a follower of Christ. If we are not followers of Christ what are we?

Are you truly a follower of Christ? Then why don't you BELIEVE that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER alone is the ONLY true God (John 17:3)? Jesus said it in John 8:42-43. Read for yourself what you are.

If anyone is in danger it is you since you deny the deity of Christ. I have pointed this verse out to you before but here it is again. John 8:23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am (he)<I>, </I>you will die in your sins."

John 20:31 says that if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON of God, you have life in his name. I believe Jeus is the SON of God - not God the Son.

Jesus tells us that he was from above and then tells us that if we do not believe that he is the I AM (to be, selfexistent) that you will die in your sins. The word he was added in and should not be there. It should be in italics in your bible.

You are TWISTING scripture to fit your FALSE doctrine. Jesus was saying that if you don't beliee that hei is the Christ, the SON of God, you will die in your sins.

Ed

 

[jukesk9]

Hey Ed,

Why, with all the Church History we have (Protestants, Catholics, Arians, Socians, etc.), did no one come up with the "Jesus Only" idea until the Twentieth Century (1913 to be exact--the birth of the United Pentecostal Church)? It's a sincere question I have and I do not mean to inflame you or insult you. I mean, it's obvious from the writings of the Early Church Fathers that the Apostles taught Jesus is God.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by jukesk9

]Hey Ed,

Why, with all the Church History we have (Protestants, Catholics, Arians, Socians, etc.), did no one come up with the "Jesus Only" idea until the Twentieth Century (1913 to be exact--the birth of the United Pentecostal Church)? It's a sincere question I have and I do not mean to inflame you or insult you. I mean, it's obvious from the writings of the Early Church Fathers that the Apostles taught Jesus is God.

jukesk9,

Please show me an apostle IN THE BIBLE who taught that Jesus is God. As a matter of FACT, apostle Paul WARNED about FALSE teachers FROM AMONG the disciples themselves who were, even at that time, already teaching "ANOTHER Jesus, ANOTHER spirit and ANOTHER spirit" (2 Cor. 11:3-4; Gal. 1:6-8).

FYI, Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Apostle Paul TAUGHT that there is ONLY ONE God, the FATHER (1 Cor. 8:6).&nbsp; Apostle Peter wrote that Christ HAS a God and FATHER (1 Peter 1:3).

You were taught FALSELY that the apostles taught Jesus is God.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by paulewog

I believe in the trinity, I'm a Christian.

Anyone can say anything he wants to say. But that does NOT make it TRUE. What is TRUE is what the Bible says. A CHRISTIAN is a DISCIPLE of Christ (Acts 11:26). And a DISCIPLE of Christ is one who BELIEVES in him and ABIDES in his word (John 8:31).

The Trinity is AGAINST the TEACHING of Christ. Christ TAUGHT that he is&nbsp; MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true Gd (John 17:3). Thus, anyone who does NOT agree with what Jesus TAUGHT is NOT a Christian!

Read Genesis 1 and 2. For the record, I'll put it here too.

The word for God is Elohim, plural. Alright, you may say, well maybe He was talking to His angels..... next passage: Genesis 1:26 and 27.

Elohim is a "plural of majesty" not of number.

I'd like to point out some things. First it says that God said Let US create... that is plural. Then it says in OUR IMAGE. The pronoun OUR is plural, but IMAGE is not plural. Same with OUR LIKENESS.

Then it says God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE, not "in Their own images."

God was talking to "living creatures" or cherubims. You will notice in Gen. 3:24 that God placed "living creatures" or cherubims at the east gate of Eden when He drove Adam and Eve out of the garden.&nbsp; When God said He created man in HIS OWN IMAGE, He was saying that for all the "living creatures" or cherubims who likewise have the image of God - knowing good and evil (Gen. 3:22).

God is 3 in 1... it's incomprehendable by man's finite brian, I think

The Trinity is incomprehendble because it is FALSE. The more one defends the FALSE doctrine, the more&nbsp;one falls into &nbsp;LYING and DECEPTION.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Raiel Corwin

1) How can you say Trinitarians are not Christians, when Christ is a member of the Holy Trinity, hmm?&nbsp; Look at the word "Christian".&nbsp; It has "Christ" in it.&nbsp; As in, "Follower of Christ".&nbsp; Anybody who follows Christ and accepts him as a savior is a Christian, plain and simple.

What you believe in is FALSE. A CHRISTIAN is a DISCIPLE of Christ (Acts 11:26). And a DISCIPLE of Christ is one ho BELIEVES in him and ABIDES in his word (John&nbsp;8:31).

Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). &nbsp;The Trinity teaches OTHERWISE. Therefore, Trinitarians are NOT Christians even if they accept Christ as their Lord and svior.

2) ...avoid being called polytheistic and paganistic:

And...what's so bad about that?&nbsp; All religions have a common belief that there must be a source of all things.&nbsp; You call it God, I call it the Tao--it's the same thing, the only difference being that you believe the source to be anthropomorphic and I do not.&nbsp; How, then, is that different from believeing the source to be polyanthropomorphic...that is, human-like and in multiple entities, especially when all 3 members of the Trinity share a common self?&nbsp;

According to the Bible which is supposed to be the sole basis of Christian belief, there is ONLY ONE God (Isaiah 44:8; 46:9). Therefore, a belief in more than ONE God is considered by the Bible as PAGANISTIC.

Ed

 

[paulewog]

*sighs* I believe in ONE God, Mr. Ed. There is ONE God. Yet all through Scripture we see references to the Trinity. It is not THREE GODS. It's one God, three Persons. How can that be?! ??? I don't know, I can't understand it. But that does not mean it's false, just because *I* cannot understand it. I can't understand how Jesus can be God and Man at the same time (and He said He was). I can't understand how God had no beginning, it's impossible for me to fathom. Does that make those things false, just because I cannot understand? no.

I will take you to a passage in Genesis where the Trinity is clearly seen.

Genesis 1:26a: "Then God said, "Let Us [plural] make man in Our [plural] image [singular], according to Our [plural] likeness [singular];"

And verse 27a: "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them."

It is obvious there is only one God, yet why the plurals and singulars? How can a plural entity ("us") have only ONE image, ONE likeness?

Some argue that the "us" refers to angels. How is it, then, that the angels AND God have only one image/one likeness? We are not made in the image of angels, but in the image of God. Yet we are made in "Their" image.

 

[paulewog]

By the way, one simple verse on Jesus/God.

The Father is God, you have said that. I will now take you to one simple verse.

John 10:30. "I and the Father are one."

 

[jukesk9]

So Ed, my original question stands: Why throughout Church history did it take 20 centuries for someone to come up with this position?&nbsp; But to answer your question about showing you where in the Bible an Apostle taught that Jesus is God:


<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" borderColor=#111111 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=7 width="100%" border=1>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">1 Timothy 3:16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -St. Paul Said Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
<BLOCKQUOTE>"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: <B><I>God was manifested in the flesh</I></B>, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the nations, believed on in the world, received up into glory."</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">John 20:28&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -St. Thomas called Jesus God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; "And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and <B><I>my God</I></B>."</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">Colosians 2:8,9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -St. Paul said Jesus was the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
<BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; "…Christ. For in him dwelleth all of the <B><I>fullness of the Godhead bodily</I></B>."</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">Titus 2:13&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -St. Paul said Jesus was God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the <B><I>great God</I></B> and our savior, Jesus Christ."</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">Luke 8:39&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -After Jesus healed a demon possess man, Jesus said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; "Return to thine house, and show what great things <B><I>God hath done</I></B> unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things <B><I>Jesus had done</I></B> unto him."</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">Rom. 14:10b -12&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -St. Paul uses the words Jesus and God interchangeably.
<BLOCKQUOTE>"For we shall all stand before the judgment Seat of <B><I>Christ</I></B>. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess <B><I>to God</I></B>. So, then, "every one of us shall give account of himself to <B><I>God</I></B>."</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">Luke 8:39&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -After Jesus healed a demon possess man, Jesus said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp; "Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him."</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD width="100%">Phil. 2:5b, 6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -St. Paul said Jesus was God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>"… Jesus Christ, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

[Raiel Corwin]

Originally posted by edpobre
What you believe in is FALSE.

1) Prove it.&nbsp; Prove to me that there's even such thing as absolute falsehood.&nbsp; Yin cannot exist without Yang, nor Yang without Yin; They oppose and complete each other.&nbsp; There is no such thing as truth pure of falsehood, or falsehood without a grain of truth.&nbsp; This is what I believe, but I do not aggressively push others into agreement with me.&nbsp; Especially here, where I'm drastically outnumbered (I do believe I am the sole Taoist on this board)

2) Perhaps this is a technicality, but you've asserted that what I believe in is false and then moved on to speak against trinitarianism.&nbsp; I am not a trinitarian, nor even a Christian.&nbsp; I seek only to explore the logic of people belonging to a different religion and thereby expand my mind.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Raiel Corwin

1) Prove it.&nbsp; Prove to me that there's even such thing as absolute falsehood.&nbsp; Yin cannot exist without Yang, nor Yang without Yin; They oppose and complete each other.&nbsp; There is no such thing as truth pure of falsehood, or falsehood without a grain of truth.&nbsp; This is what I believe, but I do not aggressively push others into agreement with me.&nbsp; Especially here, where I'm drastically outnumbered (I do believe I am the sole Taoist on this board)

2) Perhaps this is a technicality, but you've asserted that what I believe in is false and then moved on to speak against trinitarianism.&nbsp; I am not a trinitarian, nor even a Christian.&nbsp; I seek only to explore the logic of people belonging to a different religion and thereby expand my mind.

You spoke like you were a "Christian" so I thought we were talking on the same plane. There is no point discussing our beliefs further because we do NOT have the SAME basis for our belief.It would be like playing Scrabble without a standard dictionary as our guide.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by paulewog

*sighs* I believe in ONE God, Mr. Ed. There is ONE God. Yet all through Scripture we see references to the Trinity. It is not THREE GODS. It's one God, three Persons. How can that be?! ??? I don't know, I can't understand it. But that does not mean it's false, just because *I* cannot understand it. I can't understand how Jesus can be God and Man at the same time (and He said He was). I can't understand how God had no beginning, it's impossible for me to fathom. Does that make those things false, just because I cannot understand? no.

What a POOR excuse for&nbsp;UNBELIEF! If you BELIEVED what Jesus TAUGHT in John 8:40 (he is a MAN) and in John 17:3 (the FATHER is the&nbsp;ONLY true God), you wouldn't &nbsp;be BELIEVING something you CANNOT understand. As it is, you are a BLIND follower who is being tossed around by FALSE teachers.

The Trinity you believe in is FALSE not only because you CANNOT understand it but because the Trinity does NOT abide in the doctrine of Christ.

I will take you to a passage in Genesis where the Trinity is clearly seen.

Genesis 1:26a: "Then God said, "Let Us [plural] make man in Our [plural] image [singular], according to Our [plural] likeness [singular];"

And verse 27a: "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them."

It is obvious there is only one God, yet why the plurals and singulars? How can a plural entity ("us") have only ONE image, ONE likeness?

Some argue that the "us" refers to angels. How is it, then, that the angels AND God have only one image/one likeness? We are not made in the image of angels, but in the image of God. Yet we are made in "Their" image.

You say that these verses CLEARLY show the Trinity. Yet you ask these questions! If the Trinity is CLERLY seen in these verses,you wouldn't be asking these questions.

In Genesis 1:26, God is talking to "living creatures" or cherubims.&nbsp;You will note that in Genesis 3:24, God placed "living creatures" or cherubims at&nbsp;the east gate of Eden AFTER God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden.

In Genesis 3:22, God told the "living creatures" or cherubims that man has BECOME&nbsp;as one of them (in their IMAGE) - knowing good and evil.&nbsp;

In Genesis 1:27, The Bible says God CREATED man in HIS image - not in their image - because God's image is representative of all since they have only one image, that of knowing good and evil.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by paulewog

By the way, one simple verse on Jesus/God.

The Father is God, you have said that. I will now take you to one simple verse.

John 10:30. "I and the Father are one."

Look at the verse again my friend. Make it long and hard! Do you see the word "God" AFTER "one?" Isn't the word "God" only in your mind? Don't you know that ADDING to the word of God is a violation of God's COMMAND?

Ed