A Question for Theistic Evolutionists

[MemeBuster]

Is the following statement about Theistic Evolution accurate?

Theistic Evolution accepts that humans are the product of natural processes which we collectively refer to as Evolution. Therefore, according to Theistic Evolution, human morality, love, self-awareness, sociality, empathy and etc. can all be entirely explained and understood in terms of natural processes, which makes the so called super-natural, e.g. soul, irrelevant and unnecessary.


MB.

 

[Mike Flynn]

IOW, evolution=materialism=atheism=self contradictory for theistic evolution.

Logical...assuming that the premise that evolution=materialism=atheism
is a little more than an assumption on your part. The real trick for you is to make the case for this.

 

[MemeBuster]

Strawman argument!

I chose my words purposefully, so please don't put them in other words.


MB.

 

[sbvera13]

TE evolution asserts that all "natural" processes were, in fact, created by god. That is to say, god did not create the universe in 6 days with a word, he did it through the means of what we now call nature. So, even if morality et. all is derived from natural processes, it is still, in turn, derived from god because he created the process in question.

 

[Mike Flynn]

The problem is that your question is based on a false premise. Lets take one of the claims here to illustrate. Does evolution (ie what you claim is 'natural processes') account for human consciousness?

I'm not asking if evolution may one day account for consciousness or if one believes that evolution CAN account for consciousness. I am asking if the theory of evolution has already accounted for it.

If the answer is 'No' then your original question is based on a false premise and can't be answered sensibly. If the answer is 'yes' then does it also imply that the kind of materialism implied by what you call 'natural processes' is adequate...or is there something that doesn't fit? IOW, what exactly is meant by 'natural processes' here?

The other consideration is this: do theistic evolutionists believe in a modified evolutionary theory or is it entirely Darwinian? If they have a modified theory (ie involving teleology) then..again..your original question is based on a false premise.

 

[MemeBuster]

The problem is that your question is based on a false premise. Lets take one of the claims here to illustrate. Does evolution (ie what you claim is 'natural processes') account for human consciousness?

I'm not asking if evolution may one day account for consciousness or if one believes that evolution CAN account for consciousness. I am asking if the theory of evolution has already accounted for it.

If the answer is 'No' then your original question is based on a false premise and can't be answered sensibly.

But why?


MB.

 

[Mike Flynn]

Because if the answer is 'No' then a belief in evolution does not automatically bind the Theistic Evolutionist to materialism....which is the premise on which your question is based.

As I said before TEs likely don't subscribe to strictly Darwinian evolution...they include non-Darwinian teleology....which means they are not bound by the naturalism of Darwinian Evolution.

 

[philadiddle]

Is the following statement about Theistic Evolution accurate?

Theistic Evolution accepts that humans are the product of natural processes which we collectively refer to as Evolution. Therefore, according to Theistic Evolution, human morality, love, self-awareness, sociality, empathy and etc. can all be entirely explained and understood in terms of natural processes, which makes the so called super-natural, e.g. soul, irrelevant and unnecessary.


MB.

Like what sbvera13 said, believing God used natural processes to make us would also mean that our conciousness etc would be made by Him, via natural processes. The soul is a different matter. It's a topic for philosophy/theology and would have nothing to do with scientific explanation (as far as we currently know).

 

[MemeBuster]

As I said before TEs likely don't subscribe to strictly Darwinian evolution...they include non-Darwinian teleology....which means they are not bound by the naturalism of Darwinian Evolution.

Could you provide examples of "non-Darwinian teleology"?

 

[MemeBuster]

TE evolution asserts that all "natural" processes were, in fact, created by god. That is to say, god did not create the universe in 6 days with a word, he did it through the means of what we now call nature. So, even if morality et. all is derived from natural processes, it is still, in turn, derived from god because he created the process in question.

We seem to agree, so let me ask you another question. Do you believe that we will never discover natural explanations for the origin of the laws of nature?


MB.

 

[jwu]

Do you believe that we will never discover natural explanations for the origin of the laws of nature?

Then a TE can simply change his position to be that God set up exactly these natural processes which caused the laws of nature.

 

[MemeBuster]

Then a TE can simply change his position to be that God set up exactly these natural processes which caused the laws of nature.

You are right.

That is what has been happening throughout our history. Science may not be able to conclusively disprove the existence of gods, but scientific discoveries have been making god(s) irrelevant and unnecessary in one area after another, forcing the theistic god to become more and more like the abstract and distant gods of deism and pantheism.

They can keep changing their position, but it is not without cost.


MB.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

TE evolution asserts that all "natural" processes were, in fact, created by god. That is to say, god did not create the universe in 6 days with a word, he did it through the means of what we now call nature. So, even if morality et. all is derived from natural processes, it is still, in turn, derived from god because he created the process in question.

TE evolution does not even get of the ground. It is just a halfway house for creationists who are intelligent enough to see that creationist religion does not work.

The thing is TE does not work, the biota now found on this planet is not just a function of evolution in the sense that TE uses; i.e. god is using evolution as a tool to arrive at some end goal, in this case, humans with immortal souls.

Life on this planet is as much about luck as it is about evolution. If we take the KT boundary mass extinction which ended the rain of dinosaurs as an example, life could have been quite different today.

The KT mass extinction has a number of possible causes including meteorite impact and extreme volcanism, but most likely a combination of factors that together created conditions that were not very favourable to life, hence death on a vast scale.

There have been numerous mass extinctions, and dozens of lesser extinction events, all of which have nothing to do with evolution. If just one of these events had not happened the world would be a very different place today (dino’s on computers), no rational reason why not.

Unless of course you are saying god purposely fires meteorites into the Earth; creates massive volcanic eruptions etc, which for an all knowing, all powerful entity is a very crude tool.

The other flaw in TE theory is the future; evolution is still occurring, physical events will happen; Ice Ages, Volcanism, Meteorites. Humans are not the end game, we are just one move in a game that could be played out for another couple of billion years, and none of this will make any difference to the universe around us.