A question for the non sabatarians(spelling?)

[oldsage]

And how do we establish or uphold law??? By following after it to perform it, to which we then will fail having never ever performed it perfectly as it demains, or by faith alone in Christ who is our righteousness, and by extending grace and being loving people to others?

Honestly what you are saying doesn't make sense to me.

...new covenant believers are called not to follow law but to establish law through faith.

Establishing law is not the same as following after it to perform it. Establishing it is to treat all with Christian love.

Here is how I understand what you said:

"new covenant believers are called not to follow the law but to follow the law through faith.
Following the law is not the same as following after it to do it.
Following the law is to treat all with Christian love."

So, from how I read you, you are saying we are not to follow the law but we are to follow the law. You are saying the exact same thing but are denying you are saying the exact same thing

If you follow the law without faith or follow it with faith you are still following it.

Blessings,
Chris

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Hello, I have a question for those who do not hold to the seventh day(or any day for that matter) as the sabbath. Why do you hold your view that it is void? This is not meant to spark debate merely dicussion. I have not received a clear answer as to what theological reason they have not to celebrate it. At times, it seemed like I received circular reasoning.

I didn't start this thread to debate rather to discover what reasons you guys have.

Mankin,

I'd be happy to weigh in, but it looks like you've received some great responses. Were your questions answered, or are there areas where you'd like to see further clarification and/or Scriptural support?

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

Honestly what you are saying doesn't make sense to me.



Here is how I understand what you said:

"new covenant believers are called not to follow the law but to follow the law through faith.
Following the law is not the same as following after it to do it.
Following the law is to treat all with Christian love."

So, from how I read you, you are saying we are not to follow the law but we are to follow the law. You are saying the exact same thing but are denying you are saying the exact same thing

If you follow the law without faith or follow it with faith you are still following it.

Blessings,
Chris
[/size]

Once again...justified believers are called to trust Christ and be led of the Spirit by faith. Law keeping or following to perform law is not the focus. Loving and extending mercy and grace to others through Christ is. If the believers focus is performing law, then he has the wrong focus. Loving believers fulfill the law.

AT

 

[RND]

Once again...justified believers are called to trust Christ and be led of the Spirit by faith. Law keeping or following to perform law is not the focus. Loving and extending mercy and grace to others through Christ is. If the believers focus is performing law, then he has the wrong focus. Loving believers fulfill the law.

AT

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I agree AT! When we trust Christ and are led of the Spirit by Faith, then we are treated even as Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. Our faith by taking God at His word (belief) will be manifested in how we view God's law.

We cannot possibly be able to extend mercy and grace to others through Christ if we don't love one another, or especially God Himself. We can only do this through the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to follow God's commandments and God's law without the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is certainly "righteous" when the law is "fulfilled" in us.

 

[Adventtruth]

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I agree AT! When we trust Christ and are led of the Spirit by Faith, then we are treated even as Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. Our faith by taking God at His word (belief) will be manifested in how we view God's law.

We cannot possibly be able to extend mercy and grace to others through Christ if we don't love one another, or especially God Himself. We can only do this through the Holy Spirit. It is impossible to follow God's commandments and God's law without the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is certainly "righteous" when the law is "fulfilled" in us.

RND...I am not talking about some moot points from the Old Covenant. The righteous requirments of the law which is the correct translation of that passage is about the law giving you a perfect score for complying with its demans inward and out. But none of us can merit a perfect score, no matter how good we think we are. This fulfilling in us is not from following but by being loving towards the cause of Christ through the infilling of the Spirit, and yet this still does not merit salvation. So I hope you are kindly seeing my point and perspective here. If we genuinely have love and manifest agape to one another, then we manifest the goal of the law which is Christ likeness in mercy and love which point to the Father. Its about Him and not us. The law is fulfilled, not followed to perform it. Big differnce.

But what happens if I feel like crap and treat people like scum today?


(Rom 4:5) And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(Rom 4:6) just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
(Rom 4:7) "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
(Rom 4:8) blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."


Now thats the mercy of God to the justified.

AT

 

[RND]

Uh, I think I said that.....

RND...I am not talking about some moot points from the Old Covenant. The righteous requirments of the law which is the correct translation of that passage is about the law giving you a perfect score for complying with its demans inward and out. But none of us can merit a perfect score, no matter how good we think we are. This fulfilling in us is not from following but by being loving towards the cause of Christ through the infilling of the Spirit, and yet this still does not merit salvation. So I hope you are kindly seeing my point and perspective here. If we genuinely have love and manifest agape to one another, then we manifest the goal of the law which is Christ likeness in mercy and love which point to the Father. Its about Him and not us. The law is fulfilled, not followed to perform it. Big differnce.

But what happens if I feel like crap and treat people like scum today?


(Rom 4:5) And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
(Rom 4:6) just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
(Rom 4:7) "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
(Rom 4:8) blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin."


Now thats the mercy of God to the justified.

AT

 

[oldsage]

Once again...justified believers are called to trust Christ and be led of the Spirit by faith. Law keeping or following to perform law is not the focus. Loving and extending mercy and grace to others through Christ is. If the believers focus is performing law, then he has the wrong focus. Loving believers fulfill the law.

AT

Ok, now I understand where you are going with this. Yes, the focus is very important. The focus should not be the law, and yes, we should by faith follow Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit. It didn't sound like this is what you were saying before, so, thanks for the clarification.

Blessings,
Chris

 

[Byfaithalone1]

But what happens if I feel like crap and treat people like scum today?

This is a good question. It would seem that the message of SDAism is that, from the point of sin until the point of repentance, you are lost. Therefore, if you sin several times each day, it would seem that you lose salvation several times each day. If an SDA would like to clarify this point, I would sure appreciate it.

BFA

 

[digdeep]

This is a good question. It would seem that the message of SDAism is that, from the point of sin until the point of repentance, you are lost. Therefore, if you sin several times each day, it would seem that you lose salvation several times each day. If an SDA would like to clarify this point, I would sure appreciate it.

BFA

You decription of SDA's sounds like greek to me. But sadly there is some within SDAism that believes what you say above. You would have to be perfect to survive in with that type of belief.

But the truth is: With all our sins and weaknesses we are accepted in the beloved.

dd

 

[Byfaithalone1]

You decription of SDA's sounds like greek to me. But sadly there is some within SDAism that believes what you say above. You would have to be perfect to survive in with that type of belief.

Certainly there can be no assurance of salvation in such an environment. And you're correct. Many SDAs do believe in perfectionism; it is the thesis of Mrs. White's writings. We must reach a state of sinless perfection in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.

BFA

 

[djconklin]

>We must reach a state of sinless perfection in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.

Revelation 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

There'll be silence because there will be no mediation and yet some of the followers of God will still be alive.

Resit in Christ and you'll be saved.

 

[Adventtruth]

This is a good question. It would seem that the message of SDAism is that, from the point of sin until the point of repentance, you are lost. Therefore, if you sin several times each day, it would seem that you lose salvation several times each day. If an SDA would like to clarify this point, I would sure appreciate it.

BFA

And that is what I was taught as a new convert to SDAism. And that is what the head Elder told me 18 years later. I explained to him that I had already been judged in Christ, to which he responded, "I don't understand that...What about when your name comes up in the judgment?" Most Adventist who believes Mrs. EGW's understanding of the sanctuary and the 1844 foolishness can explain how one is lost after each sin. But what they can't rightly explain is Romans 7:4 without circular reasoning.


AT

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Hello, I have a question for those who do not hold to the seventh day(or any day for that matter) as the sabbath. Why do you hold your view that it is void?

I don't like it when people answer questions with a question. However, in this case, I wonder whether another question might help to bring the issue in focus. You've asked why I (a non-sabbatarian) view the sabbath as void. However, we seem to have skipped a step here. It seems that the question set out in the original post includes an assumption. It seems that there is an assumption that the sabbath was given by God to Gentiles as a group. If we are to assume that the sabbath was given to Gentiles, shouldn't we first confirm that this is true.

Q: Where in Scripture do we find God giving the seventh-day sabbath to Gentiles as a group?

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

I don't like it when people answer questions with a question. However, in this case, I wonder whether another question might help to bring the issue in focus. You've asked why I (a non-sabbatarian) view the sabbath as void. However, we seem to have skipped a step here. It seems that the question set out in the original post includes an assumption. It seems that there is an assumption that the sabbath was given by God to Gentiles as a group. If we are to assume that the sabbath was given to Gentiles, shouldn't we first confirm that this is true.

Q: Where in Scripture do we find God giving the seventh-day sabbath to Gentiles as a group?

BFA

We dont find it anywhere.

God cannot make mistakes. He chosen prophets to speak what we read in the OT.
Jesus and the Holy Spirit chose apostles and annointed men and women to write and preach the Gospel.

Nothing is missing from the word of God.

To rightly devide means to understand what is written.
Those who add to the word tend to contradict what is written.

CRIB
CRIB.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

We dont find it anywhere.

Agreed. This is why I must scratch my head when I consistently encounter folks who assume that God gave the sabbath to Gentiles as a group, but then never actually take the time to check and make certain that this assumption is actually true.

BFA

 

[Adventtruth]

Agreed. This is why I must scratch my head when I consistently encounter folks who assume that God gave the sabbath to Gentiles as a group, but then never actually take the time to check and make certain that this assumption is actually true.

BFA

I believe they feel they dont need to check...there prophet has spoken it, so its true no matter what the bible says or what context it is written in. And besides, when they do read and check it in the bible, their minds and understanding recieves it a different way... EGW had it right, so therefore the SDA denomination has it right, becasue its all filtered through the sieve of Mrs White.


AT

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I believe they feel they dont need to check...there prophet has spoken it, so its true no matter what the bible says or what context it is written in. And besides, when they do read and check it in the bible, their minds and understanding recieves it a different way... EGW had it right, so therefore the SDA denomination has it right, becasue its all filtered through the sieve of Mrs White.

This is undoubtedly true for some SDAs. However, is this true for all of the progressive SDAs who post in this site? What is their take on this issue? Do they believe that the sabbath was given to Gentiles as a group and, if so, why do they believe that?

BFA

 

[Avonia]

EGW had it right, so therefore the SDA denomination has it right, becasue its all filtered through the sieve of Mrs White.
AT

There is this sieve you speak of! But that's true with every denomination - just different sieves.

As Paul suggested - we see through a glass darkly.

 

[Cribstyl]

Agreed. This is why I must scratch my head when I consistently encounter folks who assume that God gave the sabbath to Gentiles as a group, but then never actually take the time to check and make certain that this assumption is actually true.

BFA

Their arguments are commentary that uses the seventh day of creation Gen 2:1:3 and Ex 20:5-11, which really says...."You children of Israel, keep the seventh day as a sabbath rest because God rested on the seventh day."

Sheeze, You cant tell a SDA that God did not give Adam the sabbath to rest because they've been pursuaded that Adam was given the ten commandment. Their understanding seem to come from a series of questions like, How come Abaham obeyed God laws and commandment?","How come Joseph knew that adultery was a sin?

God forknew the questions we'd have about His word, this is why we can find answers to unloaded questions.


By saying that God never changed the sabbath, they build arguments by questions rather than "thus sayeth the prophet of God in the scriptures.
The sabbath cannot change, but God gave it to the COI only ( I have ask many Jewish scholars if Rabbis were ever commanded to preach it to other nations. Jews point to circumcision as the sign of those who are prosylized.)

Modern technology have made history accessable to all via the internet. The earliest apologist prove that Christians primarily did not Judiaze, but gathered for worship on Sundays (not sabbathkeeping).
The fact that Jewish Christians continued to keep the sabbath and other religious traditions is evident in the scriptures but it's not commanded to Gentiles Christian.

The Christian faith is based on what is written.

The elephant in the room is the Holy Spirit that will make sure every man will be judged by the word of God and not the reasoning abilty of man.

We can trust the bible.........It spiritual food.

CRIB

 

[Adventtruth]

This is undoubtedly true for some SDAs.

I agree.

However, is this true for all of the progressive SDAs who post in this site? What is their take on this issue? Do they believe that the sabbath was given to Gentiles as a group and, if so, why do they believe that?

BFA

I do know they interpret the 28 funnies a different way from the main body, and they may hold to a less binding and more liberal interpretation of the sabbath, I believe this is the connection they have with the name Adventist and the church. But I may be wrong.

AT