A question for the non sabatarians(spelling?)

[Mankin]

There are three types of laws. Isrealites laws, ceremonial laws, and the ten commandments. By the destruction of the temple and the tearing of the curtain the first two laws were done away with.

The old covenant entirely was thrown out yet as Paul says the law is still righteous. He also made it clear that while the new covenant was greater than the first it was not a ticket for him to keep on sinning(which would include acts that were unloving.) Considering that if you loved God and your neighbors, you would not worship other gods or murder or steal from your neighbor.

Now, why would God throw out one law out of his ten so that it becomes entirely worthless? If Jesus is your Sabbath rest why is this never mentioned?

 

[common tater]

The Mosaic Law does indeed have societal, ceremonial, and moral aspects, however, the Jews did not distinguish or seperate them into three divisions. They treated the 613 laws as one unit, the Torah. From what I've read, it was Thomas Aquinas who brought this idea to the fore in his treatise, Summa Theologiae.

When Paul talks about how we, as Christians, are no longer under the law, he is including all three parts of the law. What proof can I offer of this? In Romans Chapter 2, he points out that people who have not been given the law still obey the law, it is because they have consciences that tell them right from wrong. People know inately that it is wrong to kill one another, or commit adultery, or lie. Why is it that they've no idea that if they do worship, it should be done on Saturday? If this were somehow ingrained in our consciences, it seems that the day would have had some importance to the Egyptians as they worshipped Ra, or the Greeks as they worshipped all of their gods, etc. I also know that Paul is including the moral aspects when he talks about no longer being under the law from Romans Chapter 7. He tells us the reason that the law was given was to learn what sin meant and the example of the law that he gives is included in the ten commandments. He says that he would not have known that what it means to covet had it not been for the law.

Are we free to sin? Pauls tells us no in the strongest terms. But he also tells us that God will write his law in our hearts.

You must understand that the Mosaic Law was a covenant between God and the children of Israel and the sign of that covenant was the Sabbath. We operate under the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was not bad, but it is obsolete. Its purpose was to point the way to Christ before he came. He is our Sabbath rest, every minute of every day. A day called "today", as is mentioned in the fourth chapter of Hebrews. Paul tells the Colossians that the food laws and the festivals and the Sabbath were all but shadows of what was to come. But Christ has come and these things no longer matter. He tells us in Romans that if you hold one day more sacred, but I see all days as the same, that neither you or I should judge one another about it. Same goes for food. If you want to worship on saturday, then you are free to do so. But if you worship saturday, that's a different matter. Our salvation is based on righteousness by grace thru faith. Nothing else. If you make what you eat or what day you worship on requirements for your salvation, you've stepped off the reservation and are preaching a false gospel.

 

[Restin]

.....
Are we free to sin? Pauls tells us no in the strongest terms. But he also tells us that God will write his law in our hearts.

You must understand that the Mosaic Law was a covenant between God and the children of Israel and the sign of that covenant was the Sabbath. We operate under the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was not bad, but it is obsolete. Its purpose was to point the way to Christ before he came. He is our Sabbath rest, every minute of every day. A day called "today", as is mentioned in the fourth chapter of Hebrews. (emphasis-Restin)

Wonderful -- "today" a 'day that has no end' like the meaning of "Melchizedek" in Heb 7.

Back to a much-overlooked point in Genesis 2:1-3. Does the 7th day have any end(?)....does it have any beginning(?). Each of the earlier 6 days have "morning and evening", but not the 7th day.

"Today", IN Christ.......Restin!

 

[DRL]

Wonderful -- "today" a 'day that has no end' like the meaning of "Melchizedek" in Heb 7.

Back to a much-overlooked point in Genesis 2:1-3. Does the 7th day have any end(?)....does it have any beginning(?). Each of the earlier 6 days have "morning and evening", but not the 7th day.

"Today", IN Christ.......Restin!

Thanks Restin.
DRL

 

[RND]

Wonderful -- "today" a 'day that has no end' like the meaning of "Melchizedek" in Heb 7.

Back to a much-overlooked point in Genesis 2:1-3. Does the 7th day have any end(?)....does it have any beginning(?). Each of the earlier 6 days have "morning and evening", but not the 7th day.

"Today", IN Christ.......Restin!

"For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

If we want to ignore the context of this verse then we can conclude that the "day" of the seventh-day creation is still on going, which is what you're alluding to. But it is obvious from the above scripture that there was a "seven-day" cycle that the children of Israel were expected to observe.

 

[MRHarvey]

Wonderful -- "today" a 'day that has no end' like the meaning of "Melchizedek" in Heb 7.

Back to a much-overlooked point in Genesis 2:1-3. Does the 7th day have any end(?)....does it have any beginning(?). Each of the earlier 6 days have "morning and evening", but not the 7th day.

"Today", IN Christ.......Restin!

That is an interesting interpretation, Retsin! I have heard it somewhere before. That we are actually now IN the Seventh Day of the Creation Week. Whihc means, the Seventh Day has lasted for just over the past six thousand years!

 

[MRHarvey]

Although I've read this sentence several times, I can't seem to follow what you're saying.

<huge snippet deleted>

This may be a valid concern if the goal is to be like Jesus Christ. Certainly, that seems to be the objective of SDA fundamental belief #16. However, I don't believe my objective is "to be like the Most High." The more I understand who God is, the more I realize that I am not the Most High. I am interested in knowing more of God, not in being Him.

BFA

Hi, Byfaithalone!

I hope you don't mind me jumping into this conversation!

I would like to say what I believe about whether or not "...the goal is to be like Jesus Christ."

If that prhase is supposed to mean, "The goal is to make myself more like Jesus Christ," then everybody who believes that should forget about it! I can't make myself more like Jesus Christ! Nobody, but nobody, can!

What I am interested in doing, is creating room in my life, for GOD to transform me from the inside out! By so doing, GOD makes me more like Jesus Christ!

BFA, you said, " I am interested in knowing more of God, not in being Him." I think that you and I are saying the same thing, just worded in a different way!

I think that getting to know more of God = creating more room in my life for God to change me = sanctification!

Your thoughts on that, please, BFA?

 

[Joe67]

Considering the OP and its question:

When time is no longer, in our heart and mind, then we serve in the newness of the spirit.

Under the authority of the sun, moon and stars we must serve in the oldness of the letter, and cannot do otherwise.

Let us, who are in the newness of the spirit, not despise those who still serve under the heavenly host.

Let us, who serve in the letter of the law, not judge those who are free.

Let us all, by love, serve one another.

Your servant,
Joe

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

what reasons you have to not believe in sabbath keeping persay.

.

Perhaps you need to define what you are meaning by sabbath keeping? The Sabbath in the Decalogue said to keep it holy that is set apart. Set apart in the Sabbath command is for the purpose of rest. Rest is for the individuals needs. By keeping do you mean resting from work one day in 7 or do you mean that that rest must occur upon one specific day in 7? In which case by keeping you have moved away from the stated reason of rest to some other reason. And if one is said to be keeping the sabbath for some other reason then that presented in the 10 commandments can they be said to be following the instructions of the 10 commandments?

If Paul could say that one man holds one day sacred and another another day just let each be convinced in his own mind then he is proposing that the reason for the action is more important then the time of the action. After all time is relative.

 

[Joe67]

Mankin,

Do you understand that you cannot enter into God's rest until after you have labored.

God finished his work and then he rested.

After you have done all then stand and say,"I am an unprofitable servant, I have only done my duty." Then you rest from your own labors, and the result is that your works will follow you.

Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord henceforth, for they rest from their labors and their works follow them. Revelation 14:13.

Joe

 

[BlackSabb]

This post would be directed towards formers but any non sabatarians are welcome to comment.

I wasn't sure if it was okay to reply here, but you did say that non Adventists are free to reply. So here goes. This is the main reason why I don't believe in keeping of a Sabbath:


Romans 14:5: "One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

Paul clearly and irrefutably says that it does not matter which day a person chooses to gather in fellowship to worship. That to honor one day is okay for sure, but to honor every day equally is also okay.

Also, Jesus says clearly that the greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself.

Does that seem reasonable?

 

[RND]

I wasn't sure if it was okay to reply here, but you did say that non Adventists are free to reply. So here goes. This is the main reason why I don't believe in keeping of a Sabbath:


Romans 14:5: "One man esteems one day above another: another esteems every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

Paul clearly and irrefutably says that it does not matter which day a person chooses to gather in fellowship to worship. That to honor one day is okay for sure, but to honor every day equally is also okay.

When you consider the context in which Paul was speaking it is clear that Paul wasn't referring to a sabbath day.

Rom 14:1¶Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.
Should we consider that Paul thought the Ten Commandments were "doubtful disputations"?

The following is from: http://www.sabbath-truth.org/sabbath-truth.html

"To begin with, it must be admitted that the word “Sabbath” is not found in the entire chapter. People assume Paul is talking about the Sabbath. But is he really? The chapter begins, “Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.” Romans 14:1. The NKJV reads, “disputes over doubtful things.” This chapter concerns “doubtful things” and is not a discussion of the Ten Commandments. The “Big Ten” are not “doubtful,” but exceedingly dear, written with the finger of God on two tables of stone. The “weak” brother “eats” some things and “esteems one day above another” while the strong brother believes that he may “eat all things” and “esteems every day alike.” Romans 14:2, 5. The early Church was made up of Jewish believers and Gentile converts. Although Paul did not specify what “days” he was referring to, he was probably talking about the “esteemting” or “not esteeming” of certain Jewish fast or feast days (Luke 18:12), and certain pagan feast days when people were especially “eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols.” 1 Corinthians 8:4.


A “strong” Jew who knew that “an idol is nothing” would have no scruples about eating “meat in an idols temple” on a pagan feast day. 1 Corinthians 8-4, 10. Paul warned these “strong” Jewish believers, “But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak [the Gentile convert from idolatry]. For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple [on a pagan feast day], shall not the conscience of him that is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; and through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish [if he is drawn back to idolatry], for whom Christ died. But when ye sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth.” 1 Corinthians 8:9-13.


THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that the discussion about “the weak and the strong” in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8 has ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SABBATH. God has never said “one man may choose to esteem MY Sabbath, while another man may choose to esteem Sunday, or every day alike.” He has not left it up to us to “pick a day, any day.” Rather, God has commanded, “Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy ... the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God.” Exodus 20:8, 10. The book of Romans is very clear, “by the law is the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:20; 7:7, 12."

Also, Jesus says clearly that the greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself.

Does that seem reasonable?

BS, are you aware that commandment which Jesus mentioned is an "old covenant" teaching?

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

 

[Joe67]

Doubt is the opposite of faith. He that doubts and eats is damned for whatever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23. It is evil to eat with offence. vs.20. Worship through time and worship through food are of the same spirit and covenant.

Galatians 3:12 - the law is not of faith

Galatians 3:21 - the law is not against the promises of God (faith)

Did the religion of the "Ur of Chaldee" offer a blood/animal sacrifice?
Abraham lived there and served other gods with his father Terah and brother Nahor. God called and the family moved to Haran. After the father (old man) died, God called Abram to "leave and go" and at least from that time forward Abram worshipped through a whole burnt offering.Abram was called as the father of faith while still in uncircumcision. Romans 4:11. If we are Christ's, then we are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise/covenant that God proclaimed at that time.

The law which came 430 years after was not the same covenant and had not authority to annul the covenant spoken to Abraham. Galatians 3:17. The covenant of cause and effect through the human will, given at Mt.Sinai, was a good covenant but could not give life. vs.21. They had to do "all" to gain those promises. The services through Aaron could not cleanse the conscience, yet those services were holy, just, and good. They needed something better.

Resurrection unto a spiritual body, and the ministry of a new, spiritual man in whom God is well pleased as our Head, and our Prince, has opened the way into the holiest for us to enter with confidence through the blood of Jesus and God will sprinkle our hearts from an evil conscience and will wash our bodies with pure water; thereby cleansing from all filthiness of the flesh and of the spirit and will give us grace to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord.

God has not given all the same knowledge so let us take care of the children and forbid them not.

Joe