A question for gays

[Chaplain David]

The apostle Paul listed homosexuals among "the unrighteous" who would not inherit the kingdom of God

(1 Cor 6:9), Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders,

(Rom 1:26-27) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

How can you reconcile homosexual behavior when scripture clearly condemns it and with serious consequences?

 

[Ohioprof]

The apostle Paul listed homosexuals among "the unrighteous" who would not inherit the kingdom of God

(1 Cor 6:9), Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders, and declared that God's wrath stands against such behavior, whether practiced by men or women

(Rom 1:26-27) Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

How can you reconcile homosexual behavior when scripture clearly condemns it and with serious consequences?

"Homosexual offenders" is an inaccurate translation, as there was no term "homosexual" at the time that Paul wrote.

If Paul actually meant all gay people, which is not at all clear, then he was wrong about this.

 

[Brieuse]

"Homosexual offenders" is an inaccurate translation, as there was no term "homosexual" at the time that Paul wrote.

If Paul actually meant all gay people, which is not at all clear, then he was wrong about this.

Agreed, there are various erroneous translations of the word

 

[kiwimac]

"Homosexual offenders" is an inaccurate translation, as there was no term "homosexual" at the time that Paul wrote.

If Paul actually meant all gay people, which is not at all clear, then he was wrong about this.

QFE!

 

[Ohioprof]

QFE!

I'm sorry, but I don't know what QFE means. Queen forever?Questing for ease? Quitting from eschatology?

 

[Archer93]

Paul appears to have had a Thing about sex and sexuality in all forms, although it's been a while since I looked at his writings much.

Why is what is essentially fanfic given so much weight? If Jesus felt strongly enough about something, wouldn't he have mentioned it himself?

 

[Chaplain David]

"Homosexual offenders" is an inaccurate translation, as there was no term "homosexual" at the time that Paul wrote.

If Paul actually meant all gay people, which is not at all clear, then he was wrong about this.

As a Bible believing Christian I do not agree that Paul was wrong about what he wrote. Perhaps, we do not comprehend his writings to the fullest of understanding but I do not discount the Bible because it is God inspired.

Quoting one of the passages again that you said was inaccurately translated, and using other Bible translations, let's see what they say.

NIV 1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders,...

NKJV Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,...

NASB Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,...

NLT Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,...

Are you also saying the additional above tranlations are incorrect regarding homosexual practices?

 

[Chaplain David]

Agreed, there are various erroneous translations of the word

Would you list the Bible translations that in your opinion contain erroneous translations of the word as you suggest?

 

[Aras]

Well, to be fair I'm bi. But I think that's gay enough for the purposes of the discussion. Yes, the Bible condones homosexuality - in fact you should kill a gay guy, (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) you should also kill people who disagree with a priest/minister (Deuteronomy 17:12), you should also kill someone for striking a parent, (Exodus 21:15)

My point being, there are very many outdated or archaic portions of the Bible, and homosexuality is just one people like to pick apart. Why doesn't pre-marital sex or divorce get this much attention?

 

[Brieuse]

Would you list the Bible translations that in your opinion contain erroneous translations of the word as you suggest?

You just did list them

 

[Chaplain David]

You just did list them

Are you saying that the Bible Tranlations that most protestants use in the United States are mistranslated? If that be the case would it be completely mistranslated, partially mistranslated, or just mistranslated where homosexuality is concerned?

FYI, the Catholic Bible says it like this:

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind,...

 

[Gwenyfur]

Well, to be fair I'm bi. But I think that's gay enough for the purposes of the discussion. Yes, the Bible condones homosexuality - in fact you should kill a gay guy, (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) you should also kill people who disagree with a priest/minister (Deuteronomy 17:12), you should also kill someone for striking a parent, (Exodus 21:15)

My point being, there are very many outdated or archaic portions of the Bible, and homosexuality is just one people like to pick apart. Why doesn't pre-marital sex or divorce get this much attention?

With the premarital pregnancy, and the current divorce rates, even within the church, people would have to look in the mirror first...

Not something many who are sitting in judgement and handing down condemnation are willing to do

 

[Chaplain David]

With the premarital pregnancy, and the current divorce rates, even within the church, people would have to look in the mirror first...

Not something many who are sitting in judgement and handing down condemnation are willing to do

I'm not sitting in judgement (thank God, I'm not smart enough and it's not in my job description , just asking questions and quoting scripture. We are all behaving ourselves so far too which is a nice change from other forums.

You are absolutely correct about there being a lot of other sin though.

 

[Brieuse]

Are you saying that the Bible Tranlations that most protestants use in the United States are mistranslated? If that be the case would it be completely mistranslated, partially mistranslated, or just mistranslated where homosexuality is concerned?

FYI, the Catholic Bible says it like this:

1 Cor 6:9-10 Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, 10 Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind,...

There are many mistranslations, omissions and extensions to the original Word in the Bible translations you quoted.

You just showed me how Malakos is translated variously as effeminate, male prostitutes, and homosexuals whereas directly translated, it literally means "soft". As you can see, none of the translations have anything in common. In fact, the Catholic church used the passage you quoted to condemn masturbation in the past.

You showed me how Arsenekoites is translated variously as homosexual offenders, sodomites, homosexuals, and liers with mankind. Directly translated, Arsen means man, and koites means bed, however it would be folly to assume that when put together it means man-bedders as much as it would be folly to assume that chairman is a chair only for a man.

 

[Sarah991]

It's a 5000 year old book, chances are it's going to be out-dated, no? I'm not going to give you a list of all the contradictions in the Bible, nor the sheer idiocies because all you have to do is Google.
There are far more important problems on this planet then two people loving each other, and if an "all-loving God" would send someone to their eternal suffering for that then I don't think he's a God worth any sort of respect. Really, I don't.

 

[Ohioprof]

As a Bible believing Christian I do not agree that Paul was wrong about what he wrote. Perhaps, we do not comprehend his writings to the fullest of understanding but I do not discount the Bible because it is God inspired.

Quoting one of the passages again that you said was inaccurately translated, and using other Bible translations, let's see what they say.

NIV 1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders,...

NKJV Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,...

NASB Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,...

NLT Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,...

Are you also saying the additional above tranlations are incorrect regarding homosexual practices?

Those translations are ALL inaccurate, as the term "homosexuals" did not exist when Paul wrote. They are all wrong. The word did not exist. These are biased and inaccurate translations.

And I think Paul was wrong. You are free to disagree with me, but he was human, and he was wrong about this, as he was about women also.

 

[Ohioprof]

I'm not sitting in judgement (thank God, I'm not smart enough and it's not in my job description , just asking questions and quoting scripture. We are all behaving ourselves so far too which is a nice change from other forums.

You are absolutely correct about there being a lot of other sin though.

I understand that you believe you are quoting scripture. But the translations are inaccurate. You are quoting mistranslations of scripture.

 

[BigBadWlf]

As a Bible believing Christian I do not agree that Paul was wrong about what he wrote. Perhaps, we do not comprehend his writings to the fullest of understanding but I do not discount the Bible because it is God inspired.

Quoting one of the passages again that you said was inaccurately translated, and using other Bible translations, let's see what they say.

NIV 1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders,...

NKJV Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,...

NASB Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,...

NLT Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,...

Are you also saying the additional above tranlations are incorrect regarding homosexual practices?

It is not that Paul was wrong with what he wrote…it is modern translations are wrong in applying the word ‘homosexual’ here.

The biggest challenge with making this passage condemn homosexual is the translation of the word arsenokoites. It is only in rather recent history that this word has been translated to mean homosexual, for centuries it was translated as a condemnation for masturbation. Various attempts have been made to defend the interpretation of arsenokoites as a reference to male-male or homosexual sex in 1 Corinthians and the denial that there are translation issues with that word appears to be political rather than anything else. This defense is made by claiming that the meaning of this compound word is derived from the meaning of its two root words: arseno (man or men) and koitai (bed). This approach is linguistically invalid. Deconstructing compounds is generally an unsound strategy in both Greek and English. It is highly precarious to try to ascertain the meaning of a word by taking it apart, getting the meanings of its component parts, and then assuming, with no supporting evidence, that the meaning of the longer word is a simple combination of its component parts. To "understand" does not mean to "stand under." In fact, nothing about the basic meanings of either "stand" or "under" has any direct bearing on the meaning of "understand." Using this method it would be equally valid to claim Paul is condemning the lazy (a man who stays in bed).


The most damming evidence that arsenokoites does not means homosexual is the fact that arsenokoites is a plural first declension noun. The word koitai, without the arseno- prefix, is feminine, just as most first declension nouns in Greek are. Thus referring to a man and a woman’s bed, not in the bed of another man

The only reliable way to define a word is to analyze its use in as many different contexts as possible. The word "means" according to how and when it is used, according to how particular people use the word in different situations. However writings contemporary to Paul that also use the word arsenokoites do not use it to mean homosexual, rather they use the word to refer to men who use money to exploit women sexually…or more simply men who employ prostitutes. (a man in a woman’s bed)

 

[Chaplain David]

First I'd like to thank all those who are participating in this discussion. I feel like I should be commenting on all your posts. Just know I appreciate it. To the previous one I say the following. I am not an expert in Greek and cannot debate Greek grammar. I can however list the following from "The Bible Knowledge Commentary" by Walvoord and Zuck, "The word adikoi (the wicked) in 1 Cor 6:9 was used in verse 1 there translated "the ungodly." The verb form adikeite "do wrong" however was used in verse 8 to describe the Corinthian's behavior. Their future role should have radically affected their practice in the present (cf. 1 John 3:3. If they thought otherwise, Paul warned, they were deceived (cf 1 Cor 5:11; Rev. 21:7-8; 22:14-15.

The list of offenders was similiar to that noted earlier (1 Cor 5:10-11 which no doubt corresponded to problems in Corinth and in other large cities of the day (cf Eph 5:3-6).

Homosexuality and male prostitution, for example, were especially characteristic of Greco-Roman society. Plato lauded homosexual love in The Symposium (181B). Nero, emperor at the time Paul wrote this letter, was about to marry the boy Sporus (Suetonius Lives of the Caesars 6. 28), an incident bizarre only in it's formality, since 14 of the first 15 Roman emperors were homosexual or bisexual."

 

[Archer93]

Sacerdote, I don't think anyone is arguing that Paul did not call certain activities wrong or wicked or ungodly. The debate is exactly what activities he was talking about.

The main argument being made is that the terms he used were generally used to indicate some sort of coersive element in sexual relations be they heterosexual or homosexual, and did not relate to consentual relationships.

To be honest, I think it's unlikely that he would have approved of homosexual relationships- but then again he didn't approve of heterosexual ones either (1 Corinthians, chapter 7). And in that same chapter, he says that he is permitted to write those things, but he was not commanded by God to do so.