A question for everyone

[TLK Valentine]

How do we tell who has been given the correct instructions?

Hear hear -- because I have yet to meet a deity who's been consistent regarding such instruction...they all seem pretty flighty.

 

[GDL]

How do we tell who has been given the correct instructions?

Hear hear -- because I have yet to meet a deity who's been consistent regarding such instruction...they all seem pretty flighty.

I know one who says He's the only one. I've come to accept this. You haven't. So, where do we go from here that will change any of our beliefs? If we go back to the topic of morality, then there are many, many specific points to discuss. Many we'll find agreement on because to some degree we're wired the same from the start. Many we'll disagree on for many reasons.

TLK, in reading the statements about ignorance, is there any among us that is not ignorant to some degree? The Heinlein quote is interesting. One of the better things I've read re: free will was that ultimately, it's about the freedom to choose. The question I'm left with is, who is he morally responsible to, what is he choosing between, and where did that morality or those moralities come from?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I know one who says He's the only one. I've come to accept this. You haven't.

You choose to believe it. I haven't.

So, where do we go from here that will change any of our beliefs? If we go back to the topic of morality, then there are many, many specific points to discuss. Many we'll find agreement on because to some degree we're wired the same from the start. Many we'll disagree on for many reasons.

Who says I want to change your beliefs? Are you out to change mine? To what, I wonder?

TLK, in reading the statements about ignorance, is there any among us that is not ignorant to some degree?

Indeed -- but at least we are not ignorant that we are ignorant... "I know that I know nothing" -- Socrates.

It would be more specific to say that willful ignorance, and especially weaponized ignorance, are the root of evil... but there's only so much space allowed in a signature...

The Heinlein quote is interesting. One of the better things I've read re: free will was that ultimately, it's about the freedom to choose. The question I'm left with is, who is he morally responsible to, what is he choosing between, and where did that morality or those moralities come from?

Morally responsible to himself, as like as not.
The deity of choice can bless or forgive any action, no matter how reprehensible -- but it's still your face you have to see in the mirror every day.

 

[Alistair_Wonderland]

How do we tell who has been given the correct instructions?

Ah, the great question of the church. Honestly, there isn't a clear answer; even in the Bible when people performed miracles, not all were doing it for God's sake, so even the claim that miracles will follow God's leaders is not entirely reliable.

Ultimately, this is my creed: seek truth above all else. Many men and churches and religious organizations will tell you what is right and wrong; who is to say whether it is you or they who are in the right? An open mind and a healthy dose of skepticism are necessary. Question authority whenever you see it; not in an accusatory manner, but in a manner that seeks to purge any and all flaws or mistruths for the benefit of all, and most importantly, question yourself and every last one of your own beliefs, and be willing to accept truths that may be uncomfortable or hard to swallow. Only then can you emerge confident in your beliefs. If you want to listen to the words of a deity, whichever deity that may be, don't listen to the words of men; go directly to the source. Then you will either be told what people you should listen to, or you will receive no answer and realize it is all a farce.

You have a question about God? Ask the sky. Whoever's listening will reply. It might not be in the way you expect or want, but either any higher power that exists cares about us and will listen to our pleas, or is uncaring or simply nonexistent. In any case, you will have your answer.

Truth will inevitably come to light. All men die, and in that moment, there shall be no arguing as to what, if anything, lies beyond. The truth does not change according to our perception; that is what the meaning of "truth" is. Therefore, if one wishes to have a solid foundation for one's life, truth is the most important thing to seek. As Mark Twain once said, "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."

As your quote from Voltaire says, "Doubt is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one." So be willing to doubt yourself and your most tried and true beliefs. I have done so, and slowly but surely I am emerging all the stronger for it, for like Descartes discovering his famous truth I think, therefore I am", we must find truth to base ourselves upon, lest all meaning be washed away in a sea of chaos and fluid perception.

"There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds." - Alfred Lord Tennyson

 

[stevevw]

I find that a very powerful tool to get to the heart of any issue is to ask: What perceptually self-evident facts of reality give rise to the need for a certain concept or idea. So I'd like to ask everyone what facts of reality give rise to the need for morality. I use the word perceptually self-evident because I'm interested in getting to the heart of the issue. I want to reduce the idea to its foundation and the foundation of any knowledge is perception. So what facts available in direct perception give rise to the need for morality.

I'm defining morality as a set of principles to guide one's actions in the pursuit of a good life. why do we need such a concept in the first place?

I think its about our interactions with others because there needs to be some rules/norms that govern how we treat others. I think we start of with a basic intuition and develop that.

At the fundemental level is the subject so we cannot exclude peoples experiences from understanding and as we are conscious rational and moral beings its just a natural part of being human. But I don't think this can be measured by naturalistic methods.

Primarily everything stems back to conscious human life being intrinsically valuable as a First Principle truth.

 

[GDL]

You choose to believe it. I haven't.

Agreed. Essentially what I said. Accept can be synonymous with believe.

Who says I want to change your beliefs? Are you out to change mine? To what, I wonder?

No one. The context of what I said is agreement vs. disagreement. For either of us to find agreement with one another in things we disagree on, one or both of us would likely have to change beliefs. I essentially already said that would likely not take place. So, we would remain in disagreement.

If either of us were out to change the other's beliefs, we would have to go into the foundations of our beliefs which would be to discuss Jesus Christ and God. We could bottom-line that quickly, which I already did by looking at your "Agnostic" identifier and you may have done by looking at my "Christian" one. This is why I said we'd have to discuss specifics of morality point-by-point.

Indeed -- but at least we are not ignorant that we are ignorant... "I know that I know nothing" -- Socrates.

It would be more specific to say that willful ignorance, and especially weaponized ignorance, are the root of evil... but there's only so much space allowed in a signature...

See, some basic agreement. I think the more we think and exercise reason, we have to end up where Socrates does.

I can see your reasoning re: willful & weaponized ignorance but being the root of all evil is a deeper discussion for me. There's something behind and preceding each. Not to delve into that at the moment but one of the things I've run into in several discussions is an attitude of superiority, an arrogance, from some who think they are "intellectual" but whose thoughts are not well reasoned and actually display an ignorance they cannot see.

Anyway, a lot to discuss in this area.

Morally responsible to himself, as like as not.
The deity of choice can bless or forgive any action, no matter how reprehensible -- but it's still your face you have to see in the mirror every day.

Morally responsible to himself isn't much of a responsibility. Morality and ethics are really for functioning with and among others. All one has to do is have a certain morality from self or some accepted source and depending upon the state of conscience, will be fine looking in the mirror. He might even admire himself for doing what should cause a crisis of conscience and would cause a condemnation by society. Just by saying "should" I have opened the discussion of "according to who or what" that would ultimately take us back to the foundational discussion I mentioned above.

 

[GDL]

Ah, the great question of the church. Honestly, there isn't a clear answer; even in the Bible when people performed miracles, not all were doing it for God's sake, so even the claim that miracles will follow God's leaders is not entirely reliable.

Ultimately, this is my creed: seek truth above all else. Many men and churches and religious organizations will tell you what is right and wrong; who is to say whether it is you or they who are in the right? An open mind and a healthy dose of skepticism are necessary. Question authority whenever you see it; not in an accusatory manner, but in a manner that seeks to purge any and all flaws or mistruths for the benefit of all, and most importantly, question yourself and every last one of your own beliefs, and be willing to accept truths that may be uncomfortable or hard to swallow. Only then can you emerge confident in your beliefs. If you want to listen to the words of a deity, whichever deity that may be, don't listen to the words of men; go directly to the source. Then you will either be told what people you should listen to, or you will receive no answer and realize it is all a farce.

You have a question about God? Ask the sky. Whoever's listening will reply. It might not be in the way you expect or want, but either any higher power that exists cares about us and will listen to our pleas, or is uncaring or simply nonexistent. In any case, you will have your answer.

Truth will inevitably come to light. All men die, and in that moment, there shall be no arguing as to what, if anything, lies beyond. The truth does not change according to our perception; that is what the meaning of "truth" is. Therefore, if one wishes to have a solid foundation for one's life, truth is the most important thing to seek. As Mark Twain once said, "Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."

As your quote from Voltaire says, "Doubt is an uncomfortable position. But certainty is an absurd one." So be willing to doubt yourself and your most tried and true beliefs. I have done so, and slowly but surely I am emerging all the stronger for it, for like Descartes discovering his famous truth I think, therefore I am", we must find truth to base ourselves upon, lest all meaning be washed away in a sea of chaos and fluid perception.

"There lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds." - Alfred Lord Tennyson

I see your "Christian" identity and began reading your post, but had to set it aside, partially because I'm off to other things for a while and partially because I immediately find pause from what I'm reading. IOW, there's probably a lot in your post to deal with, but not at the moment.

It seems like you're saying to be skeptical of men and the organized [by men] church. If so, then I as a Christian agree with you.

Do you personally believe in the ultimate authority that you can understand as a Christian? Do you personally believe in the authority of the written Word of God that you can read for yourself if you have doubts about those who teach it?

Thanks!

 

[Bradskii]

I know one who says He's the only one. I've come to accept this.

So do you get moral guidance from Him?

 

[GDL]

So do you get moral guidance from Him?

Yes, in a few ways: Study of His Text under the guidance of His Spirit, Him restructuring my thinking in line with His Text and by His Spirit, His putting me through tests & discipline to exercise and develop my thoughts and actions experientially, Him changing the contents of my conscience and desires in line with all of the preceding. There's more language to apply to this, but this gets the basic points across.

 

[Bradskii]

Yes, in a few ways: Study of His Text under the guidance of His Spirit, Him restructuring my thinking in line with His Text and by His Spirit, His putting me through tests & discipline to exercise and develop my thoughts and actions experientially, Him changing the contents of my conscience and desires in line with all of the preceding. There's more language to apply to this, but this gets the basic points across.

But I guess that you accept the responsibility for deciding what is morally correct or not.

 

[The happy Objectivist]

I think its about our interactions with others because there needs to be some rules/norms that govern how we treat others. I think we start of with a basic intuition and develop that.

At the fundemental level is the subject so we cannot exclude peoples experiences from understanding and as we are conscious rational and moral beings its just a natural part of being human. But I don't think this can be measured by naturalistic methods.

Primarily everything stems back to conscious human life being intrinsically valuable as a First Principle truth.

Hi Stevevw,

I agree with you that life is the most fundamental value. That's because it is being alive that makes values possible. Life is the only thing that makes values possible and it is the only thing that makes values necessary. By value, I mean anything that we act to gain or keep for the purpose of living.

I hold that life is the standard of value because it is the only value that is an end in itself. All other values are pursued for the purpose of living. Notice that all the facts which I and others pointed to all revolve around life. Why are some things good and some bad for us? Because our lives are conditional. Why are our lives conditional? Because of our nature as living beings who face the alternative of life vs. death. So morality is all about life. Every living thing requires v

I wouldn't call it an intrinsic value though. The concept of value presupposes the answer to two questions: of value to whom and for what?. There are two false views of values that are commonplace in philosophy. One is the intrinsic view of values that holds that values exist out there in reality apart from the mind or the valuer. This view dispenses with the valuer. There is also the subjective view of values that holds that values exist in the mind apart from reality. This view dispenses with the object or thing that is valued.

There is a third view: A value is something in reality as judged against a standard for a purpose. I think that life is that standard and that purpose.

I think that morality reduces to this fact: That man exists, he has a specific nature requiring specific actions because he faces the alternative of life vs. death. In other words, morality starts with the existence/ identity of man. You could say that the need for values is part of our identity as living beings and it's the same for all living things, even the simplest of life forms.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Yes, in a few ways: Study of His Text under the guidance of His Spirit,

How does one tell the difference between one's own intuition and His Spirit?

Him restructuring my thinking in line with His Text and by His Spirit, His putting me through tests & discipline to exercise and develop my thoughts and actions experientially, Him changing the contents of my conscience and desires in line with all of the preceding.

Him making you less "you" and more...

There's more language to apply to this, but this gets the basic points across.

Because the language to apply may contain terms such as "indoctrination" and "brainwashing."

 

[GDL]

But I guess that you accept the responsibility for deciding what is morally correct or not.

Yes. I think you and I discussed and answered personal responsibility some posts ago. There are also Biblical protocols within the Christian Faith (not sitting in a box confessing to a priest) for taking personal responsibility for immoral and unethical actions and even thoughts (a.k.a. sins). To not do so will cause problems with all the things I mentioned in my previous post to you.

 

[GDL]

How does one tell the difference between one's own intuition and His Spirit?

Some will tell you differently than I will, but my answer: I wouldn't go straight to intuition apart from defining more precisely what we're talking about. It has some fairly extensive meanings or applications. Since we're talking about morality, I'll apply what I said to that and simply deal with thought, or even conscience. It's difficult at first and has become easier over time to know the leading of His Spirit, but such leading is always in line with His Word. Over time I've simply found my conscience and desires become more in line with His Spirit and Word, so my thoughts have come to match His moral standards more and more.

Him making you less "you" and more...

Him making me less and less the messed up me that did not align with His standards and more and more what He designed us all to be. In the process life has become much easier and all the nonsense & turmoil I experienced from messed up decisions and pursuits of what I used to be attracted to is gone. The lessons continue but at a different level with deeper issues.

Because the language to apply may contain terms such as "indoctrination" and "brainwashing."

Not an unexpected response, but pretty basic, TLK. I'll discuss such things with you to a point but casually applying them to me is not meaningful and says more about you than me. Although there is certainly some to extensive indoctrination and brainwashing in just about any, or even every secular and religious system of thinking people get involved in, including many of the abundant sects of christendom, I can assure you that some of us did not start in our Christian pursuits early in life and some of us pursue this at levels of personal studies, dedication, thought and reasoning coupled with whatever life experience we had prior to entering Christianity as well as thereafter, that will not match the base examples you might throw at us.

I don't know your age, but I'm not young and probably have about 50% of my life lived in each of the non-Christian and Christian states. I was able to pursue my Faith for the most part as a full-time endeavor when I entered into it, which meant much to all of the day every day for years that turned into decades of intensive studies apart from typical distractions. The latter 50% has been much better and more meaningful than all the pursuits of the first 50% and it's my intention that the latter increases and the earlier decreases and the changes in me do the same.

 

[Bradskii]

Over time I've simply found my conscience and desires become more in line with His Spirit and Word...

I presume that when you say 'Word' you mean the bible. But then again, there's a lot I could take from the bible. Especially what Jesus is meant to have preached. But there are passages that both of us would baulk at, especially in the OT. So I don't see much difference in me deciding 'this is worth listening to, but this definitely ain't...' I'd say that we both go through the same process deciding between right and wrong whether we're reading the bible or the Quran or Aristotle or Hume.

As to being 'in line with His spirit', I have no conception of what that could mean. Sounds deep and meaningfull though.

 

[stevevw]

Hi Stevevw,

I agree with you that life is the most fundamental value. That's because it is being alive that makes values possible. Life is the only thing that makes values possible and it is the only thing that makes values necessary. By value, I mean anything that we act to gain or keep for the purpose of living.

I hold that life is the standard of value because it is the only value that is an end in itself. All other values are pursued for the purpose of living. Notice that all the facts which I and others pointed to all revolve around life. Why are some things good and some bad for us? Because our lives are conditional. Why are our lives conditional? Because of our nature as living beings who face the alternative of life vs. death. So morality is all about life. Every living thing requires v

I wouldn't call it an intrinsic value though. The concept of value presupposes the answer to two questions: of value to whom and for what?. There are two false views of values that are commonplace in philosophy. One is the intrinsic view of values that holds that values exist out there in reality apart from the mind or the valuer. This view dispenses with the valuer. There is also the subjective view of values that holds that values exist in the mind apart from reality. This view dispenses with the object or thing that is valued.

There is a third view: A value is something in reality as judged against a standard for a purpose. I think that life is that standard and that purpose.

I think that morality reduces to this fact: That man exists, he has a specific nature requiring specific actions because he faces the alternative of life vs. death. In other words, morality starts with the existence/ identity of man. You could say that the need for values is part of our identity as living beings and it's the same for all living things, even the simplest of life forms.

I agree, couldn't have said it better myself. In fact you do say it better than myself lol.

 

[GDL]

I presume that when you say 'Word' you mean the bible. But then again, there's a lot I could take from the bible. Especially what Jesus is meant to have preached. But there are passages that both of us would baulk at, especially in the OT. So I don't see much difference in me deciding 'this is worth listening to, but this definitely ain't...' I'd say that we both go through the same process deciding between right and wrong whether we're reading the bible or the Quran or Aristotle or Hume.

As to being 'in line with His spirit', I have no conception of what that could mean. Sounds deep and meaningfull though.

Yes, His Word is His Text is the Bible. I may refer to it in any of these ways. Christ is also called the Word, but I'll keep this simple.

I've appreciated your thoughts and objectivity. I find it interesting that you are an atheist, because some of your thinking about personal responsibility and seeming interest in right & wrong are characteristics of men I see the Text pointing to in some important ways.

I'd need an example and more detail about something specific you think I might balk at. Like any other writing(s) everything needs to be read in context, the reader needs to be taking from the writing vs. inserting his thoughts and points of view into the writing, and with the Bible, there are many levels to how it needs to be read. It is woven together from start to finish and needs to be read in minute detail and in the big picture and in every way in between the two. I've been at it more than fairly consistently for some decades and the greater percentage of that now is after being trained to study it in the languages it was written in, mainly Greek. Relatively speaking I'm matured to whatever degree. Specifically speaking, I'm still a child and know of no person that isn't. You can take the quote someone mentioned earlier about Socrates and apply it.

So, I don't really balk at anything in the Text. I rather view it as my needing to understand something I question for some reason. Such understanding I may get sooner rather than later. Somethings I have to file away as needing to know, but no matter how I hard I work at it, the answers don't come at my timing. It's a lifetime endeavor to scratch the surface, so to speak. I'm far from expecting to know all the answers.

It's all worth "listening to" meaning studying. And yes, since there is so much to it, I have found myself drawn to narrowing my scope to areas of special interest. My capacities are what they are even though I've seen them increase in ways. But my energies are not what they were.

For me, I'd have to alter some of what you've mentioned: I read right vs. wrong from the Bible. Anything I may take in from other sources would have to ultimately agree with it. It is the standard. Honestly, I can't exhaust the Text (nor can or has anyone else I know of) so no matter what I might read, I find myself just going back to it.

Being in line with His Spirit is being in line with His Word. Read the following and view the last 2 clauses as a parallelism:

NKJ Proverbs 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.

 

[GDL]

By value, I mean anything that we act to gain or keep for the purpose of living

Is there nothing we might seek or need to dispose of that would also be of value for living? Is there any value in giving up one's own life for something or someone else? What is of ultimate value, even intrinsic value, and who or what defines it? Is it simply up to the individual mind and appetites? We're all going to die [physically]. What will have made our life valuable and why? What will we have gained or kept that will be of continued value to us?

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Stevevw,

I agree with you that life is the most fundamental value. That's because it is being alive that makes values possible. Life is the only thing that makes values possible and it is the only thing that makes values necessary. By value, I mean anything that we act to gain or keep for the purpose of living.

I hold that life is the standard of value because it is the only value that is an end in itself. All other values are pursued for the purpose of living. Notice that all the facts which I and others pointed to all revolve around life. Why are some things good and some bad for us? Because our lives are conditional. Why are our lives conditional? Because of our nature as living beings who face the alternative of life vs. death. So morality is all about life. Every living thing requires v

I wouldn't call it an intrinsic value though. The concept of value presupposes the answer to two questions: of value to whom and for what?. There are two false views of values that are commonplace in philosophy. One is the intrinsic view of values that holds that values exist out there in reality apart from the mind or the valuer. This view dispenses with the valuer. There is also the subjective view of values that holds that values exist in the mind apart from reality. This view dispenses with the object or thing that is valued.

There is a third view: A value is something in reality as judged against a standard for a purpose. I think that life is that standard and that purpose.

I think that morality reduces to this fact: That man exists, he has a specific nature requiring specific actions because he faces the alternative of life vs. death. In other words, morality starts with the existence/ identity of man. You could say that the need for values is part of our identity as living beings and it's the same for all living things, even the simplest of life forms.

I think your views expressed here assume that our existence ends at death.

Although I am a Christian, I'm not thinking of a particularly Christian worldview at this point. Suppose the Hindu version of reincarnation is true. Then it's not that we ever cease to exist, it's that we exist in more or less states of happiness or peace.

If that's the case, then morality is about achieving a greater experience of happiness or peace.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Some will tell you differently than I will, but my answer: I wouldn't go straight to intuition apart from defining more precisely what we're talking about. It has some fairly extensive meanings or applications. Since we're talking about morality, I'll apply what I said to that and simply deal with thought, or even conscience. It's difficult at first and has become easier over time to know the leading of His Spirit, but such leading is always in line with His Word. Over time I've simply found my conscience and desires become more in line with His Spirit and Word, so my thoughts have come to match His moral standards more and more.



Him making me less and less the messed up me that did not align with His standards and more and more what He designed us all to be. In the process life has become much easier and all the nonsense & turmoil I experienced from messed up decisions and pursuits of what I used to be attracted to is gone. The lessons continue but at a different level with deeper issues.



Not an unexpected response, but pretty basic, TLK. I'll discuss such things with you to a point but casually applying them to me is not meaningful and says more about you than me. Although there is certainly some to extensive indoctrination and brainwashing in just about any, or even every secular and religious system of thinking people get involved in, including many of the abundant sects of christendom, I can assure you that some of us did not start in our Christian pursuits early in life and some of us pursue this at levels of personal studies, dedication, thought and reasoning coupled with whatever life experience we had prior to entering Christianity as well as thereafter, that will not match the base examples you might throw at us.

I don't know your age, but I'm not young and probably have about 50% of my life lived in each of the non-Christian and Christian states. I was able to pursue my Faith for the most part as a full-time endeavor when I entered into it, which meant much to all of the day every day for years that turned into decades of intensive studies apart from typical distractions. The latter 50% has been much better and more meaningful than all the pursuits of the first 50% and it's my intention that the latter increases and the earlier decreases and the changes in me do the same.

I'm just pointing out that everything you've said here would not sound out of place in some sort of sinister cult -- "I'm no good the way I am, but with... His help, I'm being changed into something more in line with His wishes so that I can be..." what, exactly? Loved? Accepted? Or just... more like Him?