A Question for Catholics

[RileyG]

I have heard of it, although we don't read of such things in God's word.

Nobody apart from our Saviour has even been sinless:

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Ro 3:23 NKJV)

So we can't earn salvation by being sinless. That is why we need God's grace, and a sinless Saviour.

I agree with that.

So Jesus Christ's death didn't actually save anybody? It only made salvation possible, provided they believe? Yet we read in the bible:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

Not "for He will make salvation possible." No, "He will save...."

I agree with that.

Not quite. In the bible, we are taught that we need a righteousness which is better than any righteousness we might have. The apostle Paul wrote:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:8-9 NKJV)

Although I believe in the doctrines represented by it, I don't like the acronym "TULIP," mainly because "limited" gives the impression of fewness. I prefer the term "Particular Redemption," but of course "TUPIP" is not a word, so not much good as an acronym.

What do you base that on? The bible doesn't teach it.

Yes, Satan is the enemy of all God's saved people. She wouldn't be the slave of Satan if she was saved, by her glorious Saviour. In that, she is like every Christian. They were slaves of Satan, but by God's grace they are pleased to be slaves of God.

No that is not what the bible teaches. The only sinless person mentioned there is the Lord Jesus Christ:

“For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb 4:15 NKJV)

There are no words remotely similar in the bible about Mary being without sin.

Luke 1:28 in the original Greek. She was is/always/forever full of grace per the grammar. No sin was found within her.

 

[RileyG]

Marian theology is very deeply engrained within Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. I am convinced that no amount of biblical reasoning will ever sway its adherents. The four Marian Dogmas in Roman Catholicism must be believed in order to hope for salvation. To deny them automatically precludes Catholics from that hope and puts them in direct risk of excommunication.

Much of the dogmas are supported by scripture, and if not scripture, then the early Church fathers…,

 

[David Lamb]

God saved her BEFORE she ever committed any sin. God kept her pure and without blemish. As a regular human being, she indeed needed a savior.

I know I have said it before, but the bible when it talks about a Saviour, means Somebody to save from sin, death and hell. If Mary was perfectly pure and without blemish, none of those things would affect her:

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

 

[prodromos]

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

Every descendant of Adam inherits death. Infants often die despite not having committed any personal sins, so Mary absolutely needed salvation from death.

 

[David Lamb]

Every descendant of Adam inherits death. Infants often die despite not having committed any personal sins, so Mary absolutely needed salvation from death.

So you mean she had what is sometimes called "original sin"?

 

[prodromos]

So you mean she had what is sometimes called "original sin"?

Ancestral sin is what we Eastern Orthodox call it.
Catholics will deny this, but as I keep having to point out, I am not Catholic and this is one area where Catholic theology departs from the faith handed down from the Apostles.

 

[bbbbbbb]

God saved her BEFORE she ever committed any sin. God kept her pure and without blemish. As a regular human being, she indeed needed a savior.

God has saved all of His people from before the foundation of the earth. Does that mean that all of His people are kept by God pure and without blemish (i.e. sinless)?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You accept purgatory?

Please note that I commenced my post with the word "If".

 

[boughtwithaprice]

If love is as a burning fire that always wants more and Purgatory is as a burning fire that always wants more then Purgatory is the perfect expression of love.

It’s an analogy. Our love will want us purged of sin to be with the Lord; however , It would be the love of longing due to separation
In this instant gratification society, we have lost touch with what that feels like. Don’t worry, either pray for it or we will feel it soon enough
God’s baptism of fire cleanses us from all sin, it does not take us as full sinners and just pretend we are sinless. Begin the process here, which is the narrow way with the straight gate

 

[boughtwithaprice]

God has saved all of His people from before the foundation of the earth. Does that mean that all of His people are kept by God pure and without blemish (i.e. sinless)?

God knows those that are his. Some of us go through more sin than others. Seeing the destination does not describe the journey
Mary did not go through sin. She stayed humble without ever counting the cost.
Can you even imagine what it would be like to have almighty God growing inside of you?
Mary was joined with God. Hail Mary Kecharitomene, the Lord is with you, not imaginary or spiritually but really. I can’t see how people would treat her so flippantly.
I can see Satan, her enemy, tricking us to get us to think she is no big deal, but when she is contemplated and we grasp who she is, there is no one that could say anything against her that would not also be insulting God.
Pretty much every denomination has founders or prophets that people say, I wish I could talk to them and be close to someone that founded the faith. Mary actually had God inside her for nine months. Jesus was with her and subject to her for thirty years and performed His first miracle at her request, she was at the foot of the cross watching her son sacrificed for the sins of the world and was in the upper room when the Holy Spiirt came as tongues of fire, yet many look down on or ignore her. That makes no sense unless our understanding is darkened

 

[RileyG]

Please note that I commenced my post with the word "If".

Beautiful analogy, nonetheless.

 

[RileyG]

Ancestral sin is what we Eastern Orthodox call it.
Catholics will deny this, but as I keep having to point out, I am not Catholic and this is one area where Catholic theology departs from the faith handed down from the Apostles.

Yes. I am aware of the difference.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I know I have said it before, but the bible when it talks about a Saviour, means Somebody to save from sin, death and hell. If Mary was perfectly pure and without blemish, none of those things would affect her:

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

See you are saying that salvation could be earned if Mary were sinless. Our point is that no one can earn salvation even if sinless.
We are creatures, not creators or earners
We say Mary cannot earn salvation even by being sinless, she had to be humble and accept the gift of God, which was His grace in full

You also seem to confuse slavery and enmity. As a slave, we may hate our master and believe him our enemy but we are still subject to him. As an enemy, we are not subject to a master, but are free to oppose him. Mary is the enemy of Satan, yet the slave to God in love and adoration, as we will be should we reach Heaven.
Salvation is the gift of God which cleanses us and keeps us from sin

As it says in 1 John

6- Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him [1 John 3:6] 7 Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God, committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whosoever is not just, is not of God, nor he that loveth not his brother.



Too many think paying lip service to Jesus is enough, and I used to be that way. I was told not to worry about sin, we can’t help ourselves and our it all under the blood, God gets us
It was not until I humbled myself and submitted to the full authority of the Church that I received the grace taught in 1 John described above. I saw my sins and was horrified. I lost my desire for them and something in me said, I would do those any more if I were you. I had temptations but the grace of God took away my excuses and stopped mortal sin and confessed all previous mortal sin. It was not by my own effort, but Christ lived in me. I will not turn my back on Him are return to sin. I study His word and obey His Church to continually be cleansed of sin. His grace is available to anyone. Just ask Him, and He is faithful and just not only to forgive us our sins, but cleanse us from all unrighteousness
We are not in heaven yet, so there is the continuous spiritual battle, which takes place in the mind and the will. God provides us the sacraments for our assistance. If you don’t know than battle, I feel sorry for you and invite you to join God’s army.
God does not leave us orphans. His commands are to honor our mother and father, not honor our father and discard our mother. Spiritually He commands us to become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. Every child has a mother. When we understand that, we see Mary as our mother by the will of God. She is the first of God’s army as Christ was in her and with her first. Song of Solomon sings of her beauty

Canticles 6:9

- Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in array?


There is no cause to deny Mary her place at Christ’s right hand

Psalm 44 Douay Rhiems

7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness 8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows 9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which 10 The daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.

 

[jamiec]

That doesn't fit with those bible verses which say that Jesus is the conqueror of the devil, for example:

“Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,” (Heb 2:14 NKJV)

Is there any bible verse that says that Mary is the destroyer of the devil?

The Roman Christians tread satan underfoot in Romans 16.20 - St Paul prays that they may do so. So what prevents Our Lady from doing so ? They are in Christ, so they tread satan underfoot in Christ. And so does Our Lady.

Christ is - evangelically, though not literally - the Seed of Gen 3.15. Therefore, the woman from whom He comes is - evangelically, not literally - Our Lady. In the literal sense, Gen 3.15 has no evangelical sense at all - just as Isa 7.14 hasn’t.

Christians - of whom Our Lady is one - are, have, & do “in Christ” many things that of themselves, & apart from Christ, they are not, have not, & cannot.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Beautiful analogy, nonetheless.

Thank you.

 

[RileyG]

I know I have said it before, but the bible when it talks about a Saviour, means Somebody to save from sin, death and hell. If Mary was perfectly pure and without blemish, none of those things would affect her:

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Ro 6:23 NKJV)

She was still human though. She was only sinless/blemish because of her savior. Not because of her human actions.

[from RC perspective. Some EO, IIRC, believe similar doctrines about the Blessed Virgin]

 

[David Lamb]

She was still human though. She was only sinless/blemish because of her savior. Not because of her human actions.

[from RC perspective. Some EO, IIRC, believe similar doctrines about the Blessed Virgin]

But that is true of every saved sinner. I'm not talking about actually living a perfect life - we won't until we get to heaven - but having the imputed righteousness of our Saviour. As Paul wrote:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:8-9 NKJV)

 

[bbbbbbb]

But that is true of every saved sinner. I'm not talking about actually living a perfect life - we won't until we get to heaven - but having the imputed righteousness of our Saviour. As Paul wrote:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:8-9 NKJV)

You have touched a raw nerve here. Are certain sinners better than other sinners? Does God make distinctions and discriminate among His saints?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

But that is true of every saved sinner. I'm not talking about actually living a perfect life - we won't until we get to heaven - but having the imputed righteousness of our Saviour. As Paul wrote:

“Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;” (Php 3:8-9 NKJV)

You make a good point in that righteousness does not come from works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ.
The part where we talk past each other is that we are discussing real righteousness, not imaginary. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross. Paul asks how can anyone that is dead to sin live anylonger therein? Iraneus demonstration of the apostolic teaching shows Christians are called to self denial in order to follow Jesus here on earth, not just mouth His name and wait to be cleansed in heaven.
If we lack to power to do it and follow the straight and narrow path, then we cry out to God who will not only forgive us our sins but cleanse us from all unrighteousness


96. Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being children in malice, and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness.266 For no longer shall the Law say, Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour s field or ox or ass,267 to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,268 to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbours, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath,269 that is to |148 say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness. For I desire mercy, He saith, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But the wicked that sacrificeth to me a calf is as if he should kill a dog; and that offereth fine flour, as though (he offered] swine's blood. But whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. And there is none other name of the Lord given under heaven whereby men are saved,270 save that of God, which is Jesus Christ the Son of God, to which also the demons are subject and evil spirits and all apostate energies, by the invocation of the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate.

266. i Cor. xiv. 20.

267. Ex. xx. 13 ff.; Deut. v. 17 ff.

268. Ex. xxi. 24.

269. 4 Just. M. Dial. 12...

270. Hos. vi. 6. Isa. lxvi. 3. Joel ii. 32. Cf. Acts iv. 12.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You make a good point in that righteousness does not come from works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ.
The part where we talk past each other is that we are discussing real righteousness, not imaginary. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross. Paul asks how can anyone that is dead to sin live anylonger therein? Iraneus demonstration of the apostolic teaching shows Christians are called to self denial in order to follow Jesus here on earth, not just mouth His name and wait to be cleansed in heaven.
If we lack to power to do it and follow the straight and narrow path, then we cry out to God who will not only forgive us our sins but cleanse us from all unrighteousness


96. Wherefore also we need not the Law as a tutor. Behold, with the Father we speak, and in His presence we stand, being children in malice, and grown strong in all righteousness and soberness.266 For no longer shall the Law say, Do not commit adultery, to him who has no desire at all for another's wife; and Thou shalt not kill, to him who has put away from himself all anger and enmity; (and) Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour s field or ox or ass,267 to those who have no care at all for earthly things, but store up the heavenly fruits: nor An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,268 to him who counts no man his enemy, but all men his neighbours, and therefore cannot stretch out his hand at all for vengeance. It will not require tithes of him who consecrates all his possessions to God, leaving father and mother and all his kindred, and following the Word of God. And there will be no command to remain idle for one day of rest, to him who perpetually keeps sabbath,269 that is to |148 say, who in the temple of God, which is man's body, does service to God, and in every hour works righteousness. For I desire mercy, He saith, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But the wicked that sacrificeth to me a calf is as if he should kill a dog; and that offereth fine flour, as though (he offered] swine's blood. But whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. And there is none other name of the Lord given under heaven whereby men are saved,270 save that of God, which is Jesus Christ the Son of God, to which also the demons are subject and evil spirits and all apostate energies, by the invocation of the name of Jesus Christ, crucified under Pontius Pilate.

266. i Cor. xiv. 20.

267. Ex. xx. 13 ff.; Deut. v. 17 ff.

268. Ex. xxi. 24.

269. 4 Just. M. Dial. 12...

270. Hos. vi. 6. Isa. lxvi. 3. Joel ii. 32. Cf. Acts iv. 12.

How much "real righteousness" does God require from His people?