A question about the rapture

[Jonatec]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

 

[HTacianas]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

What he's getting at is a "post-tribulation rapture". The idea of the rapture as is commonly spoken of by some protestant groups -meaning that everyone will be whisked away to escape persecution- is only a modern idea. It only came about among some protestant groups circa 1840 or so. It was never a part of Christianity.

 

[d taylor]

-​

The man of sin is not the antichrist. The man of sin is the same person as the beast from the sea and the king of the north. The antichrist is the false prophet

 

[PIckleRelations]

What he's getting at is a "post-tribulation rapture". The idea of the rapture as is commonly spoken of by some protestant groups -meaning that everyone will be whisked away to escape persecution- is only a modern idea. It only came about among some protestant groups circa 1840 or so. It was never a part of Christianity.

If you read carefully, Paul is discussing the Day of the Lord, not the rapture. That Day is an established concept in the OT and would have been understood as such by the initial readers.

 

[notworthconsideration]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

This is confusing because of the pre-trib rapture doctrine. The scripture has been misunderstood in this. No one goes to heaven via rapture, because when He returns, He’s coming here to stay with us! We will witness all this prophecy unfolding, but those of us who are In Him, will be protected- like the Passover, if we follow His instructions.

 

[JulieB67]

No one goes to heaven via rapture, because when He returns, He’s coming here to stay with us!

Exactly

 

[Douggg]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

Welcome to the forum, Jonatec.

Being the Antichrist is when the person is thought to be the messiah by the Jews and is anointed the King of Israel. At that time, many who believe in Jesus will turn away, i.e. fall away, and think the Jews were right all along, and will be duped into thinking the Antichrist is the true messiah. That is the great falling away.

After being anointed the King of Israel, about three years go by, with the world thinking it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety; and will be saying peace and safety of 1Thessalonians5 - when the so-called messiah, King of Israel does the unexpected. He goes into temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

That particular act is the transgression of desolation of Daniel 8:12-14. It is different from the abomination of desolation, which will come later.

When the Antichrist commits the act, it reveals him to be the man of sin and not the messiah as the Jews will have first thought. The Jews will be mortified by the event and will no longer accept him as their King of Israel. End of the person's time as the Antichrist. He not long after becomes the beast of Revelation 13.

The rapture may happen pre-70th week or it may not. But it has to happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation. Anytime between now and the transgression of desolation act.

 

[iamlamad]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

This is, without a doubt, one of the verses of Paul that Peter spoke of as hard to understand. Also without a doubt, Paul wrote it this way on purpose. We can only guess on the purpose. My guess is, if his letter fell into Roman hands, they would not understand it.

Next, it is somewhat ambiguous because some Greek texts say Day of the Lord, while others say Day of Christ. Since Paul used "Day of the Lord" in his first letter, I believe that is the preferred choice.

Next, so many people form at least part of their belief from this passage using words ADDED by the translators. Here is one of the best translations I can find. The Berean Literal Bible: I changed "apostacy" to "Departing," as most of the pre KJV did.

1 Now we implore you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, 2 for you not quickly to be shaken in mind, nor to be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as if by us, as that day of the Lord is present. 3 No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the departing shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed—the son of destruction,

This uses "Day of the Lord."
This corrects the timing tense that the day of the Lord is not "at hand" but has already come and is present.
This translation did not add words that throw people off.

So what is it that Paul is saying they falsely believed had already come? It is the Day of the Lord. Not the rapture, not the gathering, but the Day of the Lord, that day according to the Old Testament that comes with wrath and fierce anger.

What two events then must happen before one can know that the DAY has already come and they are now in it? Paul tells us that when people see the significant departing (as in the rapture) a departing all know about, then see the man of sin revealed, then they can know the Day has already started and they are IN IT.

The significant departing is the restraining force being "taken out of the way" so the man of sin is no longer restrained so will be revealed soon after.

Of the two events, which one must come first? Of course, the restraining force must be removed first before the revealing can take place, for it is the revealing that is being restrained.

Most people miss the fact that in Paul's argument in verse 3, by the end of verse 3, the man of sin IS (has already been) revealed. Yet, we know from verses 6-8 that he cannot be revealed until the restraining power has been "taken out of the way." Therefore, somewhere in the first part of verse 3, we MUST find the restraining power taken out of the way. There is only one word that could be the restraining power removed: that is hidden in the word departing or apostasia.

Again people miss that Paul wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..." HOW Paul? How can we know? If Paul could answer, I think he would say, "because I just told you—go back and read it again."

 

[iamlamad]

What he's getting at is a "post-tribulation rapture". The idea of the rapture as is commonly spoken of by some protestant groups -meaning that everyone will be whisked away to escape persecution- is only a modern idea. It only came about among some protestant groups circa 1840 or so. It was never a part of Christianity.

This is simply a myth. Pseudo-Ephraim wrote of the pre-trib rapture LONG before 1840.
"Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins"

"Caspari suggested a date between late 6th and early 7th centuries. Alexander argues that the work was originally written at the end of the 4th century..."

 

[DavidPT]

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

There is no such thing as a midtrib rapture when we factor in the 70th week. That week consists of 2 parts. In the middle of it is the beginning of great tribulation. The first 3.5 years do not involve great tribulation. The rapture you are proposing would be in the middle of the 70th week at the beginning of great tribulation. not in the middle of great tribulation. Therefore, a midtrib rapture would logically be meaning 1.75 years after great tribulation begins in the middle of the 70th week. No one holds a view like that, though. The confusion arises by conflating great tribulation with the 70th week. The former only involves 3.5 years. The latter involves 7 years.

The timeline would basically look like this.

The beginning of the 70th week---the first 3.5 years are not involving great tribulation yet. The middle of the 70th week, thus 3.5 years later---this is the beginning of great tribulation and that it continues for 3.5 years until the end of the 70th week.

A mid trib rapture would be meaning 1.75 years into this 3.5 year great tribulation. IOW, it would fit in the middle of this final 3.5 years, not at the beginning of this final 3.5 years since the beginning of that is the beginning of great tribulation. How can something be in the middle of something at the beginning of it?

What it boils down to then, there is no such thing as a midtrib rapture. It's basically Pretrib with another name since both are meaning before great tribulation begins. The only way this can be incorrect, the middle of the 70th week is not the beginning of great tribulation, the beginning of the 70th week is the beginning of great tribulation, thus making great tribulation 7 years in length rather than 3.5 years in length. Obviously though, the 42 month reign of the beast is meaning great tribulation. Obviously, 42 months is not 7 years, it's only 3.5 years. Therefore, great tribulation is 3.5 years and it begins in the middle of the 70th week. A midtrib rapture would be meaning 1.75 years after the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week, and would be meaning 1.75 years before the 2nd half finishes. No one holds a view like that. Yet, if there is such a thing as a midtrib rapture, that is where it would logically have to fit.

 

[notworthconsideration]

Welcome to the forum, Jonatec.

Being the Antichrist is when the person is thought to be the messiah by the Jews and is anointed the King of Israel. At that time, many who believe in Jesus will turn away, i.e. fall away, and think the Jews were right all along, and will be duped into thinking the Antichrist is the true messiah. That is the great falling away.

After being anointed the King of Israel, about three years go by, with the world thinking it has entered the messianic age of peace and safety; and will be saying peace and safety of 1Thessalonians5 - when the so-called messiah, King of Israel does the unexpected. He goes into temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

That particular act is the transgression of desolation of Daniel 8:12-14. It is different from the abomination of desolation, which will come later.

When the Antichrist commits the act, it reveals him to be the man of sin and not the messiah as the Jews will have first thought. The Jews will be mortified by the event and will no longer accept him as their King of Israel. End of the person's time as the Antichrist. He not long after become the beast of Revelation 13.

The rapture may happen pre-70th week or it may not. But it has to happen before the Antichirst commits the transgression of desolation. Anytime between now and the transgression of desolation act.




View attachment 333189

Very well stated. I differ on the rapture part of this, but your summation of that series of events is the most concise I’ve ever read, or heard. Remarkably simply, yet thorough. Chart adds a nice visual. Have you thought about combining the commentary and graphic? Your descriptive style actually triggered my brain to very clearly picture this.

 

[Marilyn C]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

V. 3 is saying that IN the Day of the Lord the falling away will come first then the man of sin will be revealed, (at the beginning of the trib.)

 

[anetazo]

Friend, the rapture theory is false doctrine, God hates the fly away doctrine, Ezekiel chapter 13 to document.
Second thessalonians chapter 2, Son of perdition is satan, he comes 6th trump in his role as antichrist. Majority of people don't have gospel armory on, they are biblically illiterate. Wisdom and knowledge of Gods word is the gospel armour, ephesians chapter 6 and James chapter 1.
What are consequences for worship antichrist??. Revelation chapter 14, Trip to sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked.
Those who embrace rapture theory will worship antichrist. They are biblically illiterate.
Second thessalonians chapter 2, God is sending strong delusions on those who love not the truth. Don't be in this group. Put on gospel armour and stand for something.

 

[Douggg]

Very well stated. I differ on the rapture part of this, but your summation of that series of events is the most concise I’ve ever read, or heard. Remarkably simply, yet thorough. Chart adds a nice visual. Have you thought about combining the commentary and graphic? Your descriptive style actually triggered my brain to very clearly picture this.

Thanks for the feedback. I will see what I can do about combining the commentary and graphic.

 

[Douggg]

Here is an chart I made of the Anytime Rapture View with narration. You can click anywhere on the chart for a fullscreen view. Feel free to copy and paste the chart where-ever you want.

 

[iamlamad]

Friend, the rapture theory is false doctrine, God hates the fly away doctrine, Ezekiel chapter 13 to document.
Second thessalonians chapter 2, Son of perdition is satan, he comes 6th trump in his role as antichrist. Majority of people don't have gospel armory on, they are biblically illiterate. Wisdom and knowledge of Gods word is the gospel armour, ephesians chapter 6 and James chapter 1.
What are consequences for worship antichrist??. Revelation chapter 14, Trip to sheol. It's holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked.
Those who embrace rapture theory will worship antichrist. They are biblically illiterate.
Second thessalonians chapter 2, God is sending strong delusions on those who love not the truth. Don't be in this group. Put on gospel armour and stand for something.

This post completely ignores what Paul wrote: that we would be CAUGHT UP to meet Christ in the air and in the clouds. HOW will we get up into the air and in the clouds UNLESS we fly. The "fly away" doctrine comes straight from 1 Thes. 4 & 5.
Many people are confused as to WHEN this will occur. There is no need for confusion, for Paul TELLS US WHEN: just three verses after his classic "fly away" doctrine of being caught up into the clouds, to meet Jesus, he wrote of the Day of the Lord.

Never forget Paul's order: rapture first, THEN the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of God's wrath. If we then look on Revelation's timeline, we find God's wrath and the start of the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. Further study reveals that the 70th week of Daniel or "the tribulation" as many call it, does not start until the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.
Since 6 always comes before 7 in counting, and since Paul tells us the rapture will come just before wrath, we know that the rapture will come pre-trib.

Many people do not know that God "marked" the 70th week with sevens: the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet (midpoint) and the 7th bowl.

 

[JulieB67]

This post completely ignores what Paul wrote: that we would be CAUGHT UP to meet Christ in the air and in the clouds. HOW will we get up into the air

Air in this verse does not mean air as in the sky or elevation. It means air as in the breathable air. There's a different Greek word for sky and elevation that's that's also translated "air". As for clouds, Paul used the singular version of this Greek word when describing a cloud of witnesses. He describes this event in the very next chapter -the day of the Lord. The subject hadn't changed. There were no chapters and the thought continues. And then goes on into 2nd Thes and chapter 2 discusses this very same subject - same day and our gathering back to him.

Never forget Paul's order: rapture first, THEN the start of the Day of the Lord

That is not the order. Paul was discussing our gathering back to him. He told them not to worry or be confused. If a pretrib rapture were possible in their lifetimes, why the strict warnings and why did he tell them not to be confused even by a letter from them? Paul nailed down the timing. He said do not be deceived by any means.

And just because you believe apostasy as a departure from the earth does not make it so. It's departure from the truth.

 

[iamlamad]

Air in this verse does not mean air as in the sky or elevation. It means air as in the breathable air. There's a different Greek word for sky and elevation that's that's also translated "air". As for clouds, Paul used the singular version of this Greek word when describing a cloud of witnesses. He describes this event in the very next chapter -the day of the Lord. The subject hadn't changed. There were no chapters and the thought continues. And then goes on into 2nd Thes and chapter 2 discusses this very same subject - same day and our gathering back to him.


That is not the order. Paul was discussing our gathering back to him. He told them not to worry or be confused. If a pretrib rapture were possible in their lifetimes, why the strict warnings and why did he tell them not to be confused even by a letter from them? Paul nailed down the timing. He said do not be deceived by any means.

And just because you believe apostasy as a departure from the earth does not make it so. It's departure from the truth.

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

If we just read it as it is written, clouds are up high in the air - the very air we breath. It is my guess, if we had a hundred 5th graders read this verse, they would picture Jesus stopping high in the air, and hidden by clouds to call up His people.

I understand, anyone can read into a verse according to their preconceptions.

 

[Matt5]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed under 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

We must see the fake Jesus (false prophet) first. He will force everyone to change religions (the falling away).

The real Jesus will not come until after the fake one, so do not become confused.

 

[JulieB67]

17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

You can't just stop with verse 17. We don't read other books like that and the bible is no different. We have to read chapter by chapter and verse by verse. There were no chapters and Paul continues this very subject -

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
"Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."
"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

He just tells us the name of the very event he's talking about -The day of the Lord. There was no change of subject.

I understand, anyone can read into a verse according to their preconceptions.

That's the thing, I have no preconceptions at this point. I once believed as you did but it's not biblical. If I had any preconceived notions when I first set out to study this years ago they would have been towards a pretrib rapture.
But Christ did not describe a pretrib rapture and neither did Paul. The mystery that Paul talks about is that "all are changed" at the last trump. We are meeting Christ at that moment in our spiritual bodies not flying away.