A question about Purgatory.

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

Not in the least, as God's Word is not so.

It is the word of God for I refer to it!

Many of your quotes are from Jesus as He addressed the Jews. That is not our gospel, "Paul's gospel" as Jesus gave to him for us.

Yes my bible passages are from God. It is addressed to us! For the New Covenant is for Gentiles as well as Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah!

(The young Church) Pauls letters are actually Catholic letters addressed to the parishes. Before the Church became universal (Catholic, before the Church became universal). The epistles (Catholic letters).

If you believe what you have written about Paul's addressing those at Rome, then you, my friend have the contradictions to Scripture. Paul writes that a believer is justified by faith--- but faith in? In Jesus! Our justification comes not from works but through Christ. His expounding is of Jesus' Words to the Jews yes, but also to the Gentiles who are/can be grafted into the vine through belief.

There is the proof of your anti-Catholic intent.

 

[drjean]

Jesus did not address the Gentiles, nor the new covenant before His resurrection. This means the 4 "gospels" are only for the Jews; Jesus addressed only 2 Gentiles and that was for their faith in Him. He didn't come "originally" to us, but to give His covenant people an opportunity to "see the Light". They did not. But He addresses the Jews, the Hebrew law and their interpretation of it. When Paul quotes it, it is to show variance between what the Jews were taught and the way "it is now" with his (Paul's) gospel...delineating the difference, not that it was something he made up (he clearly states it is from Jesus.)

Where are your verses that are in concert with the gospel for the Gentiles?
I will admit it, I am anti-religion! (Just as Christ is.) Religion is man-made and often adds to the Words of God. Jesus explains that too. The true faith is Christianity...it is not a religion but the Faith of Jesus Christ.

If someone wishes to join a religion, that is their choice. Often it is for fellowship in like-believers, and rules are set forth for organization. But one cannot manipulate the Word of God to support their religion...as the Pharisees and Saducees did.

We are warned not to add to God's Word. There is nothing wrong with NOT believing in a purgatory... especially if you think there was one... but you cannot justify the gospel given to the gentiles with a purgatory after Christ "purged our sins". IF you truly believe that a purgatory is still needed, then, as Paul wrote, why would Christ have had to come? If man can be saved through his works (and ANYTHING man thinks he has to do for salvation other than accept Christ is works) then Christ's actions are null and void.

As for "once saved always saved" again I know this is a much discussed and some might say "controversial" subject here... but I personally cannot discount the Word of God when he says NOTHING shall take them out of my hand! What can separate us from the love of God? NOTHING not even ourselves, for if we truly believed and accepted Christ for salvation, any contrary thinking after that imo would be attributed to the oppression of the devil, who is not as strong as God but can make us think contrary things.

IF we are not "once saved always saved" then Christ would have to continually be crucified on the cross. His Word says "ONCE, for all". I believe that.

 

[drjean]

You do realize that "all Scripture" referenced in that letter was the OT? There was as yet no NT.

And all of the OT is indeed profitable. But it is not the full measure of knowledge we have received from God.

Rather, at the time of the Apostles ...

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God , which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15)

The Church was the Body through which the teaching of the Apostles was given, which verified their teaching, and eventually recognized so as to collect and canonize the NT.

There are no NT Scriptures which say the Bible is the ultimate authority, because there was no Bible. However for us (the Orthodox Church) I should point out that the Scriptures are indeed the central part of the deposit of faith received from the Apostles, and nothing may contradict them. So the Church can't and doesn't.

Are we to assume, then, that God did not know He would authorize what we call the "New Testament" and didn't know that it would be put into writing just as His "old testament" Words were? I believe the first writing of guidance was handed to Moses... I also believe that when God says "ALL SCRIPTURE" that He meant everything He gave for us to have, right? And that He had nothing to do with the New Covenant that was given to us through Christ? Are you truly saying that only the Old Covenant writings are the Word of God? If so, then you must live under the law as the Hebrews, only. So it is as if Christ had not come?

But of course there was a "Bible" in the strictest definition...but not in one that sees only a hardbound "book". I think we are above this rhetoric, your beliefs are understandable, but they too are based upon writings and not oral histories. It may be profitable to truly get into the Word, all of it, and compare and understand... this requires the study of Hebrew and the Jewish traditions so that the fullness and richness of His Word is enjoyable.

Then-what to do with that troublesome (for others) verse that says ALL scripture is given through the Holy Spirit?

2 Timothy 3: 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

There are many who have tried to discount the New Testament yet it bears up under the harshest scrutiny...and there are no errors in it, truly. The same Spirit is found through out, the gospel of salvation varies not. No other text has been found to be
infallible.

 

[drjean]

If there is no Purgatory, then we have the absurd situation of a serial murderer (or an Adolf Hitler to take a more extreme example) who makes a sincere deathbed confession, and then waltzes straight into heaven, without in his life ever having made any attempt at personal santification.

HItler's rages, his blaming of other people, his cruelty, his vindictiveness - all is suddenly sweetness and light, without his ever having made one ounce of effort to reform his character, other than a last minute realisation of what a mongrel he'd really been.

No problem - just come straight in!

NOBODY gets into heaven unless they are literally perfect, and this means purfication after death if necessary. Christ's death on the cross means we are not condemned - it doesn't mean we are automatically made pure. I don't know about you, but I think I sin every day, usually in a venial way, but sometimes more seriously.

The man who wasn't even properly dressed for the heavenly wedding got thrown out on his ear. I believe that parable at least contained an inbuilt reference to Purgatory.

I personally am delighted to hear of "deathbed conversions" as Jesus wants all to come to Him... and I am thankful for those who do this! I wonder why this would upset anyone...no, I can see where someone working to enter heaven is angry over someone who "did nothing but accept Jesus" and got in. Have you thought about this view?

What then do you do with the thief on the cross? Yes, yes, many use this as an example...but I believe God gave it to us specifically for an example. He was made pure immediately.

As for the improperly dressed person trying to gain his way into the wedding feast... ah... the analogy of those who have cried "Lord Lord have we not done many wonderful works in your name, and Jesus says Depart from me you who WORK iniquity, I NEVER knew you" we must be properly clothed---in the righteousness of Christ. We can't get there by our own "works".
ANYTHING that is added to believing / accepting Christ for salvation is a "work".

 

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

Jesus did not address the Gentiles, nor the new covenant before His resurrection. This means the 4 "gospels" are only for the Jews;

Luke was a gentile, for his target audience of Gentile Christians . St. Luke, the companion of St. Paul (Col 4:14; 2 Tim 4:11). The oldest references to Luke as the author of the third Gospel identifies him as from the Christian community of Sts. Paul and Barabbas in Antioch, Syria (Acts 12:19-26) and is found in an ancient Greek prologue stating "this is Luke the Syrian Antiochean" (estin ho Lukeas Antiocheus Sysros), and later in the Latin form Lucas Antiochensis Syrus. Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea in the Holy Land records the same tradition in his 4th century AD Church History where he writes: Loukas de to men genos on ton ap', "by descent Luke was of those from Antioch" (History Eccl., 3.4.6)

But He addresses the Jews, the Hebrew law and their interpretation of it. When Paul quotes it, it is to show variance between what the Jews were taught and the way "it is now"

Indeed the Mosaic Law. Not binding on Gentiles apart from the moral laws.

"it is now" with his (Paul's) gospel...delineating the difference, not that it was something he made up (he clearly states it is from Jesus.)

Yes New Covenant laws.

If someone wishes to join a religion, that is their choice. Often it is for fellowship in like-believers, and rules are set forth for organization. But one cannot manipulate the Word of God to support their religion...as the Pharisees and Saducees did.

Before the 16th century there was only one Christian Church. Not including the schism of 1054! One Church united in it's teachings.

We are warned not to add to God's Word. There is nothing wrong with NOT believing in a purgatory... especially if you think there was one... but you cannot justify the gospel given to the gentiles with a purgatory after Christ "purged our sins". IF you truly believe that a purgatory is still needed, then, as Paul wrote, why would Christ have had to come? If man can be saved through his works (and ANYTHING man thinks he has to do for salvation other than accept Christ is works) then Christ's actions are null and void.

Again Original sin. Not personal sin. Just look at the world, personal sin is rife. Yet 2,000 years ago Jesus came to undo it? No it was original sin. The sin of Adam & Eve. Personal sin is something quite different.

Again this once saved always saved, it is a Luther 16th century invention. Twist Scriptures to suit and contradictions appear elsewhere in Scripture.

 

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

There are many who have tried to discount the New Testament yet it bears up under the harshest scrutiny...and there are no errors in it, truly. The same Spirit is found through out, the gospel of salvation varies not. No other text has been found to be
infallible.

It is interesting you say this, for if you are a bible scholar you should know: 2 Tim. 3:14 - The likes of you usually use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 to prove that the Bible is the sole authority of God’s word. But examining these texts disproves your claim. Here, Paul appeals to apostolic tradition right before you Protestants’ often quoted verse 2 Tim. 3:16-17. Thus, there is an appeal to tradition before there is an appeal to the Scriptures, and Protestants generally ignore this fact.

2 Tim. 3:15 – Paul then appeals to the sacred writings of Scripture referring to the Old Testament Scriptures with which Timothy was raised (not the New Testament which was not even compiled at the time of Paul’s teaching). This verse also proves that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without the New Testament.

2 Tim. 3:16 – this verse says that Scripture is “profitable” for every good work, but not exclusive. The word “profitable” is “ophelimos” in Greek. “Ophelimos” only means useful, which underscores that Scripture is not mandatory or exclusive. You folks unbiblically argue that profitable means exclusive.

2 Tim. 3:16 – further, the verse “all Scripture” uses the words “pasa graphe” which actually means every (not all) Scripture. This means every passage of Scripture is useful. Thus, the erroneous Protestant reading of “pasa graphe” would mean every single passage of Scripture is exclusive. This would mean Christians could not only use “sola Matthew,” or “sola Mark,” but could rely on one single verse from a Gospel as the exclusive authority of God’s word. This, of course, is not true and even Protestants would agree. Also, “pasa graphe” cannot mean “all of Scripture” because there was no New Testament canon to which Paul could have been referring, unless Protestants argue that the New Testament is not being included by Paul.

2 Tim. 3:16 – also, these inspired Old Testament Scriptures Paul is referring to included the deuterocanonical books which the Protestants removed from the Bible 1,500 years later.

Let me remind you of an historical event: The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

 

[drjean]

It is the word of God for I refer to it!



Yes my bible passages are from God. It is addressed to us! For the New Covenant is for Gentiles as well as Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah!

(The young Church) Pauls letters are actually Catholic letters addressed to the parishes. Before the Church became universal (Catholic, before the Church became universal). The epistles (Catholic letters).



There is the proof of your anti-Catholic intent.

Parishes? Okay you'll just have to disagree --- because they were not called parishes! That is a FRENCH term the English picked up in a later---MUCH later--- century. We must be careful not to take our religious beliefs as gospel, because they were taught by someone supposedly 'called of God' . We are all called...and not take everything someone teaches as gospel.

I'm out of this discussion because it appears that only those who do not find "purgatory" in the Bible are supposed to be tolerant of another's beliefs. NO WHERE in God's Word is there a "purgatory" and there IS the doctrine that JESUS has PURGED our sins. How a religion can distort that is beyond me. I pray for your souls and understanding, and may I meet you in 100 years---in heaven!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Are we to assume, then, that God did not know He would authorize what we call the "New Testament" and didn't know that it would be put into writing just as His "old testament" Words were? I believe the first writing of guidance was handed to Moses... I also believe that when God says "ALL SCRIPTURE" that He meant everything He gave for us to have, right? And that He had nothing to do with the New Covenant that was given to us through Christ? Are you truly saying that only the Old Covenant writings are the Word of God? If so, then you must live under the law as the Hebrews, only. So it is as if Christ had not come?

But of course there was a "Bible" in the strictest definition...but not in one that sees only a hardbound "book". I think we are above this rhetoric, your beliefs are understandable, but they too are based upon writings and not oral histories. It may be profitable to truly get into the Word, all of it, and compare and understand... this requires the study of Hebrew and the Jewish traditions so that the fullness and richness of His Word is enjoyable.

Then-what to do with that troublesome (for others) verse that says ALL scripture is given through the Holy Spirit?

There are many who have tried to discount the New Testament yet it bears up under the harshest scrutiny...and there are no errors in it, truly. The same Spirit is found through out, the gospel of salvation varies not. No other text has been found to be
infallible.

Forgive me. I take from your words I may have offended you somehow, but I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying.

Most certainly I am not discounting the New Testament! Those ARE the writings of, by, and for the Church. They contain the revelation to us of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, through which we read the rest of the Scriptures, if we would understand them properly.

So if that's what you got from my post, I am not sure how to reply because that wasn't my meaning at all.

Peace to you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Most certainly I am not discounting the New Testament! Those ARE the writings of, by, and for the Church. They contain the revelation to us of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ, through which we read the rest of the Scriptures, if we would understand them properly.

Actually, (to understand properly as YHVH Grants understanding),
those are NOT the writings of, by, nor for the 'Church'.

YHVH Breathed His Word through men HE called and chose and set apart for Himself, ekklesia, quite different from the 'Church' that didn't appear until years later.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Actually, (to understand properly as YHVH Grants understanding),
those are NOT the writings of, by, nor for the 'Church'.

YHVH Breathed His Word through men HE called and chose and set apart for Himself, ekklesia, quite different from the 'Church' that didn't appear until years later.

Not to nitpick but ... the Church was begun at Pentecost. The writings followed years, decades later.

Yes, they are inspired by God. But I meant in the sense that a man held the pen, and the words are in the way the man understood - St. Luke writes from his particular perspective, St. Paul from his own, and St. John from his own.

And they were written to bodies (the Church) in particular places, to be read aloud, and circulated. That was part of the process whereby they became Scripture. The people were already taught the Truth, so they could recognize a true letter from a spurious document (of which there were many).

So I'm not sure if you agree or not, but that was my meaning. My apologies if I was unclear.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not to nitpick but ... the Church was begun at Pentecost.

It would be better if you do nitpick, and find out the difference between the ekklesia and later the 'Church'. There's probably not near enough time and space here to go into it- and if you don't want to know, just drop it then, until YHVH brings it up to Reveal the Truth, if He does.

 

[~Anastasia~]

.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

By all means, there is plenty of space here to go into the difference.

I don't think you have any idea how much tradition that is not Scripture is involved, not even close probably.... it is overwhelming just to think about, even knowing just a little about this.
Anyone who searches for the Truth and keeps searching, finds it, and they are set free, as God Promises in His Word , Scripture. Stick with Scripture, simple. Add tradition, oy vey...... For example, look into ekklesia only, without tradition and not from tradition but only from God's Word, and you will find much that most people never find. The 'bulk' of what there is not space nor time for (not worth it here), is tradition that contradicts Scripture. There's no need for someone seeking the truth to study tradition, but only seek YHVH, and keep seeking Him, in His Word with constant prayer, and listen. Trust Him. Listen more - it takes time, a lot of time listening to hear Him, both reading His Word frequently and taking time every day frequently to spend time with Him, and to learn what is not tradition.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't think you have any idea how much tradition that is not Scripture is involved, not even close probably.... it is overwhelming just to think about, even knowing just a little about this.
Anyone who searches for the Truth and keeps searching, finds it, and they are set free, as God Promises in His Word , Scripture. Stick with Scripture, simple. Add tradition, oy vey...... For example, look into ekklesia only, without tradition and not from tradition but only from God's Word, and you will find much that most people never find. The 'bulk' of what there is not space nor time for (not worth it here), is tradition that contradicts Scripture. There's no need for someone seeking the truth to study tradition, but only seek YHVH, and keep seeking Him, in His Word with constant prayer, and listen. Trust Him. Listen more - it takes time, a lot of time listening to hear Him, both reading His Word frequently and taking time every day frequently to spend time with Him, and to learn what is not tradition.

Do you know what Holy Tradition is, and what it includes, according to the Orthodox Church?

 

[~Anastasia~]

And while we are at it ... if you truly want to discuss, I'm up for it. But it's not as though I'm someone who knows nothing outside of the Orthodox Church.

I've been a seeker and follower of Christ since nearly 50 years ago. Not that I haven't had rough patches in there. I have. I spent a period of time in isolation being taught purely by the Holy Spirit. And I have since learned where He has sent me, and what He wants me to know. I am freer now than you can imagine, at least in the sense I think you mean.

I don't say any of this to brag. (Bragging and being sure of oneself is very dangerous spiritually.) Because at the same time, as we learn and grow, we become aware of the depths we don't know and can't fathom.

I am very thankful for all the great riches and help God has given me, and the love shared among His great family of children. I'm always happy to share any knowledge of that.

But I don't want to argue with anyone. It's not spiritually profitable. And I'm not offended by your words, because it's not profitable to allow oneself to be offended.

Whatever your desire is, we can talk or not. Ekklesia is the word we translate into Church. If it is done right, there is no difference. Though the Body then was at a different point of establishment than the Body today. But at least for the simple faithful, there need be no real differences.

But I don't wish to argue or spar, if that's what you're after. Nor am I seeking to change anyone's mind. People's minds are seldom changed against their will anyway. The information and experience is available, though admittedly not always easy to access, for anyone truly interested. And on any case, God loves every person and desires the salvation of each one, and can be trusted to lead us to what we are ready for. Sometimes that is different, one person to another. So far be it from me to think I might know what anyone else needs.

Peace to you.

 

[sdowney717]

Only those written in the Lamb's book of life can enter into the city. And how do we escape the judgement and immediately pass from death to life??
John 5:24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.


Revelation 21:22-27 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


And what does Paul say about to where Christ's believers, His church have come? To a purgatory of suffering?? No way, God said no, we do not come into judgement, He justifies us, so that were are just and then He perfects us, we shall be perfect. In that it says 'we have come', means it is a present realty, the same as Paul in Ephesians saying we are seated with Christ in heavenly places. So no protracted purgatorial suffering of us working off the sins committed in this life, such a thought is anti-christ in its very nature, a slap and evil challenge to God's own face against His truth and loving grace in Christ for His people.

Hebrews 12:18-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

 

[oOKnights TemplarOo]

Parishes? Okay you'll just have to disagree --- because they were not called parishes! That is a FRENCH term the English picked up in a later---MUCH later--- century.

The word parish merely describes the various Church communities.

We must be careful not to take our religious beliefs as gospel, because they were taught by someone supposedly 'called of God'

You say that then go on to say:

We are all called...

I'm out of this discussion because it appears that only those who do not find "purgatory" in the Bible are supposed to be tolerant of another's beliefs.

You do not have to be tolerant at all, you even say it yourself by being "out of this discussion".

Gen. to Rev. – Scripture never says that Scripture is the sole infallible authority for God’s Word. Scripture also mandates the use of tradition. This fact alone disproves sola Scriptura.

NO WHERE in God's Word is there a "purgatory"

I posted bible passages on purgatory. Refute them then.

JESUS has PURGED our sins.

Jesus has overcome original sin. That is why God tore the curtain in the temple from top to bottom when Jesus died on the cross. The gates of heaven thrown open once again that were closed when original sin entered the world.

The Old Covenant temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD as Jesus foretold. The New Covenant Church given to us from the cross. Our bodies are the New Covenant temples. I could go on, but that is going off topic.

2 Corinthians 5:10: For at the judgment seat of Christ we are all to be seen for what we are, so that each of us may receive what he has deserved in the body, matched to whatever he has done, good or bad.

Hebrew 9:27: Since human beings die only once, after which comes judgment, so Christ too, having offered himself only once to bear the sin of many, will manifest himself a second time, sin being no more, to those who are waiting for him, to bring them salvation. As soon as one dies, one faces one's particular judgment. Christ's First Advent was to directly deal with sin, but since redemption is complete, His Second Advent will only deal with the Final Judgment.