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You could torture a wongdoer forever, but doing that won't make him into an angel!
Does the Bible speak about Purgatory? My friend's that are Catholic has told me about this place between Heaven and Hell.
Matthew Chapter 12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
"Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place.
ST. MATTHEW - Chapter 12
The so-called “ purging “ took place 2000 years ago , but then maybe the precious Blood of our Saviour was inadequate to remove sin....kinda like goats that could “ cover” sin for a year, but could not remove it once and for all.Poor old misguided John the Baptist was wrong when he said “ Behold the Lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY the sins of the world”. I mean,we’ve all heard about that “Good News”, but this stuff is crazy! I “ insist that Jesus share some of His glory for all the stuff I did, you know...that “ purging” I endured.
No, I'm afraid you misunderstand. Sin is forgiven, yes. But we need to be actually transformed. Neither you nor I are yet prepared for standing before God. God doesn't want to just see us through Jesus-colored glasses ... His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin.
Repeat to yourself how a doctrine comes to be a doctrine in your church. Tradition? Scripture? Magisterium? You will search in vain for "If Augustine said it...."hmm...whose Scriptural interpretation should I consider more relevant.....one of the greatest minds the Church has ever known or a know anti-Catholic on CF?
Repeat to yourself how a doctrine comes to be a doctrine in your church. Tradition? Scripture? Magisterium? You will search in vain for "If Augustine said it...."
What is most interesting is that even some Catholics are downplaying the idea of Purgatory anymore, including even some in the cloth. .
Matthew Chapter 12
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
"Nor in the world to come. From these words St. Augustine (De Civ. lib. xxi. chap. 13.) and St. Gregory (Dial. iv, chap. 39.) gather, that some sins may be remitted in the world to come; and consequently that there is a purgatory, or a middle place. (Challoner) --- St. Augustine says these words would not be true, if some sins were not forgiven in the world to come; and St. Gregory says, we are to believe from these words in the existence of the fire of purgatory, to expiate our smaller offences, before the day of judgment. St. Isidore and Ven. Bede say the same. St. Bernard, speaking of heretics, says, they do not believe in purgatory: let them then inquire of our Saviour, what he meant by these words. --- It is well known that Ven. Bede, on his death-bed, bestowed several small tokens to the monks who were present, that they might remember to pray for his soul in the holy sacrifice of the mass. (Haydock)
ST. MATTHEW - Chapter 12
There's a pretty good explanation of the reality and need for Purgatory in this link.
Catholic Bible 101
If there is no Purgatory, then we have the absurd situation of a serial murderer (or an Adolf Hitler to take a more extreme example) who makes a sincere deathbed confession, and then waltzes straight into heaven, without in his life ever having made any attempt at personal sanctification.
Logical fallacy. Sin is sin, it only takes one sin to be apart from God. Serial killers and Hitler are no worse than me or you since both of us HAVE sinned. Even Jesus said "Why do you call me good, only God alone is Good" He knew that in our flesh there is no good.
Hitler's rages, his blaming of other people, his cruelty, his vindictiveness - all is suddenly sweetness and light, without his ever having made one ounce of effort to reform his character, other than a last minute realization of what a mongrel he'd really been.
No problem - just come straight in!
NOBODY gets into heaven unless they are literally perfect, and this means purification after death if necessary. Christ's death on the cross means we are not condemned - it doesn't mean we are automatically made pure. I don't know about you, but I think I sin every day, usually in a venial way, but sometimes more seriously.
Wrong. Purification from sins comes at the point when we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts that Jesus Christ died for our sins. At that moment we are washed clean from all of our sins, past, present and future by the blood of the Lamb of God. Purgatory suggests that Christ's death on the cross was insufficient. He died ONCE for ALL.
The man who wasn't even properly dressed for the heavenly wedding got thrown out on his ear. I believe that parable at least contained an inbuilt reference to Purgatory.
"All purgatory does is to detach you from your love of sin, and to pay your debt to God for all of the sins that you have committed while alive on earth. "
This is wrong. The sacrifice Christ made on the cross pays the sin debt IN FULL. "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
What is noteworthy is that the Catholic Purgatory might well have it's roots in Judaism, though that is probably uncertain. I did some research on Jewish views of the afterlife sometime back and found that most Jews who have believed in an Intermediate State have clung to the belief that God would not require anyone to spend more than a year there, before moving on to Heaven. Now I am not aware of Catholic teaching being specific on the length of time one might spend in Purgatory, but the implication is certainly there that some might be held in Purgatory for much longer than one year.
But everything we are given to believe is that we will stand before God as we are, and we'll face the music for what we did, and be judged accordingly. Your post makes it look like we'll be completely retooled (through suffering in the afterlife) and made blameless (and, as a result, undeniably deserving of Heaven) before we have to stand in front of God to account for our works. That would not really be any kind of "immediate judgment."
"No, I'm afraid you misunderstand. Sin is forgiven, yes. But we need to be actually be transformed. Neither you nor I are yet prepared for standing before God. God doesn't want to just see us through Jesus-colored glasses ... His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin."
This is untrue. I kneel before the living God daily, many times a day I stand before his throne. In fact when he looks at me he HAS to look at me through the blood of his son, Jesus Christ. That IS the ONLY way I can come before him to find grace and help in my times of prayer.
" His plan is to actually and really heal us from all of the effects of sin."
The effects of sin ARE consequences of our decisions to sin. We ARE responsible for the actions we take in life whether they are right or wrong.
The Purgatory doctrine would not be so bad if it was not tied in with indulgences and if it was not so connected to some form of punishment, plus the implication that some people might have to spend a very long time in Purgatory, before being allowed into Heaven.
"No desire to argue. And I'm aware of Protestant theology."
I don't know what Protestant theology is, I only speak from the word of God.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Timothy 3:16
"I would only ask ... do you expect to be further healed from the effects of sin, or do you expect to spend all eternity just as you are now, still subject to the effects of sin, only ... God won't notice or hold it against you?"
Have you not read? For it is written: 1 Corinthians
Chapter 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ
I don't suffer the "effects" of sin if I choose not to sin.
"We believe it will be better than that. That we will be perfectly and fully healed from all the effects of sin that we continue to experience, even after conversion.
God be with you."
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