A question about Job.

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
Does God seriously answer Job's inquires at all? It is frustrating from a theological perspective.

God had already answered Job through Elihu.

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
Job: I thought I was righteous and did everything right why would you do this to me? I am faithful.

God: Who are you to question me? Were you there when I created everything? Can you do what I do?

Job: My bad. You're awesome. I am not. It won't happen again.

Does God seriously answer Job's inquires at all?

Here's you answer:

Job 35:1 (Elihu to Job) Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"? (HCS)

Within the context of Job chapter 35, Elihu says:

"So Job opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words." (Job 35:16)

In other words Job is self-deceived in his claims to righteousness.

The question is does God agree with what Elihu stated? Remember Elihu claims to speak in God's behalf (see Job 36:1).

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

This is the first time God speaks directly to Job. So when did God counsel Job?

Answer: Through Elihu!

God is in agreement with Elihu! Both of them tell Job that his claims to righteousness are words spoken without knowledge. What is Job's reply?

"Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.

What a difference we see in Job now. Before this Job claimed to be righteous before God. He claimed to be without sin. He claimed to be blameless.

But now we see a changed man. We see a humble Job who realizes that his righteousness was really self-righteousness and he realized that in comparison to God's righteousness he was actually "vile".

Not only did Job have a change of heart but he also repented of his self-righteousness:

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: .... 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.... 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

ChristsSoldier115 · Aug 9, 2014

Setyoufree said:
Here's you answer:

Job 35:1 (Elihu to Job) Do you think it is just when you say, "I am righteous before God"? (HCS)

Within the context of Job chapter 35, Elihu says:

"So Job opens his mouth with empty talk; without knowledge he multiplies words." (Job 35:16)

In other words Job is self-deceived in his claims to righteousness.

The question is does God agree with what Elihu stated? Remember Elihu claims to speak in God's behalf (see Job 36:1).

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: 2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge?"

This is the first time God speaks directly to Job. So when did God counsel Job?

Answer: Through Elihu!

God is in agreement with Elihu! Both of them tell Job that his claims to righteousness are words spoken without knowledge. What is Job's reply?

"Then Job answered the Lord and said: 4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth.

What a difference we see in Job now. Before this Job claimed to be righteous before God. He claimed to be without sin. He claimed to be blameless.

But now we see a changed man. We see a humble Job who realizes that his righteousness was really self-righteousness and he realized that in comparison to God's righteousness he was actually "vile".

Not only did Job have a change of heart but he also repented of his self-righteousness:

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: .... 3 You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.... 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Hmmm.. so you're saying Job is not as righteous as he thought, but does not God claim Job to be such in the opening narrative?

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 9, 2014

faroukfarouk said:
James 5.11: "Ye have heard of the patience of Job."

That word can also mean to "endure", as some Bible versions have it.........

Greek Lexicon :: G5281 (YLT)
Strong's Number G5281 matches the Greek ὑπομονή (hypomonē),
which occurs 33 times in 31 verses in the Greek concordance

Rev 1:9
I John, who also am your brother and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance G5281 , of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ;

5281. hupomone hoop-om-on-ay' from 5278; cheerful (or hopeful) endurance, constancy:--enduring, patience, patient continuance (waiting).
5278. hupomeno hoop-om-en'-o from 5259 and 3306; to stay under (behind), i.e. remain; figuratively, to undergo, i.e. bear (trials), have fortitude, persevere:--abide, endure, (take) patient(-ly), suffer, tarry behind.

steadfastness, constancy, endurance
1. in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
2. patiently, and steadfastly
a patient, steadfast waiting for
a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance

.

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
Hmmm.. so you're saying Job is not as righteous as he thought, but does not God claim Job to be such in the opening narrative?

Right, and that has been the argument of some on this subject.

Let's look at this again:

Job 1:6 (NAS) Now there was a day when the sons of God (hence folks from unfallen planets) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 "But put forth Your hand (that is, remove your protection) ....; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Well, we know what happened next. It wasn't pretty.

The story doesn't give a lot of details here. We have to develop the details as we read the book of Job.

But for starters some questions immediately come up:

For example why would God just allow all these terrible things to happen to Job? Surely not just to prove Himself right and Satan wrong? That sounds like God has an ego. It doesn't sound like the God I know in the NT through Jesus Christ. That's because Jesus said if you have seen Him you've seen the Father too.

How would you like it if Satan came to God and said the same and then Satan wiped your family out and in the process almost killed you? Wouldn't you question why? And let's say it was just so God would win an argument with Satan...kind of betting to see if you would reject Him or not? How would you like a God like that?

That's just not the way I see God. He doesn't play childish games. So my take (especially after reading the whole book of Job) is that God was presenting Job's view of himself before Satan. Job's view was that he was blameless. Since Job wasn't there, God simply spoke for Job.

Now why would God do that?

Because Satan is the accuser of the brethren. He accuses us day & night before God. His accusation is always the same, i.e., "God, what right do you have to take these believing sinners to heaven? After all you banded me!!!"

You know what God does? He, through our faith in Him, presents us perfect and blameless in Himself. So we are righteous in Christ!!

But, what if you are self-righteous? What then??? Then you would present yourself before God as a blameless man. What is that essentially stating? That you don't need God's righteousness because you have your own.

This was Job's problem. That's why God retreats and Satan comes in. God allowed Satan to come in because Job had a lesson to learn and that lesson is that, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble". Job was very proud of his own self-righteousness and in order to save him from himself, God intervened.

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
That word can also mean to "endure", as some Bible versions have it..........

That sounds more accurate.

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

Setyoufree said:
So my take (especially after reading the whole book of Job) is that God was presenting Job's view of himself before Satan. Job's view was that he was blameless. Since Job wasn't there, God simply spoke for Job..

Job's self-righteousness:

"Let God weigh me (Job) in honest scales and he will know that I am blameless" [Job:31:6]

Now the problem is, if Job were truly righteous then why did he repent?

Job's repentance:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said , 4 "Behold, I am vile..." Job 42:6 "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes"...

Which is it, Job...are you blameless or vile?

Why did Job's view change?

Because after going through hell & back he learned a very valuable lesson:

"God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ"

Job's self-righteousness got so bad that God no longer could present him in His coming Son, blameless and without spot. Therefore Satan accusations were right and God, in a limited fashion, allowed the accuser to come in.

Once Job was humbled, God came back into his life. Only this time it was better than before!

Job 42:12 "The LORD blessed the latter part of Job's life more than the first."

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

I found this video....I haven't viewed it yet, so I don't know if I agree or not.

The Self-Righteousness of Job (1 of 2) - The Trumpet Daily - YouTube

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFcqBxoahxc

Setyoufree · Aug 9, 2014

I'll give these two videos a B minus.....I differ on somethings, but this guys makes some of the same points that I do.

brinny · Aug 11, 2014

Interesting words, (patience and endurance) and great Bible verses farouk and LLOJ.

Reminds me of this verse:

"God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him." ~James 1:12

These are some verses that apply also, and what stands out is verse 11, which is remarkably similar to the verse in the beginning of Job:

"10For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

11Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?

14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ." ~1 Peter 3:10-16

Similarities of verse 11 in 1 Peter 3:11 and Job 1:1

"Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it." ~1 Peter 3:11

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." ~Job 1:1

ChristsSoldier115 · Aug 11, 2014

God said Job was righteous. He is right. Job thought he was very righteous because of what he did, but God knew Job was righteous because of what He did.

A fine example for today's christian if anything.

brinny · Aug 11, 2014

ChristsSoldier115 said:
God said Job was righteous. He is right. Job thought he was very righteous because of what he did, but God knew Job was righteous because of what He did.

A fine example for today's christian if anything.

Job had a clear conscience. He knew that God counted him as righteous because of his standing before God. God Himself defines why He defined Job as righteous. It was because of this:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." ~Job 1:1

Thank you kindly for sharing your thoughts.

ChristsSoldier115 · Aug 11, 2014

brinny said:
Job had a clear conscience. He knew that God counted him as righteous because of his standing before God. God Himself defines why He defined Job as righteous. It was because of this:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." ~Job 1:1

Thank you kindly for sharing your thoughts.

Do you believe setusfree's argument that Job was self-righteous is wrong? Just curious.

brinny · Aug 11, 2014

Originally Posted by brinny View Post
Job had a clear conscience. He knew that God counted him as righteous because of his standing before God. God Himself defines why He defined Job as righteous. It was because of this:

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." ~Job 1:1

Thank you kindly for sharing your thoughts.

ChristsSoldier115 said:
Do you believe setusfree's argument that Job was self-righteous is wrong? Just curious.

God's Word can speak for itself. God Himself defines Job, in the very beginning of the book of Job. According to God, Job was not guilty of "self-righteousness" which is akin to "pride" and the very "root" of all sin. It is not possible to be a man of God and to have "self-righteousness" in yer heart. Any man who "fears" God has already laid all self-righteousness and pride at the feet of God, otherwise he could not be defined as "fearing God", for he has no regard for God whatsoever, and in essence, "hates" God.

The question is, does God say that Job was self-righteous?

Thank you kindly.

ChristsSoldier115 · Aug 11, 2014

brinny said:
God's Word can speak for itself. God Himself defines Job, in the very beginning of the book of Job. According to God, Job was not guilty of "self-righteousness" which is akin to "pride" and the very "root" of all sin. It is not possible to be a man of God and to have "self-righteousness" in yer heart. Any man who "fears" God has already laid all self-righteousness and pride at the feet of God, otherwise he could not be defined as "fearing God", for he has no regard for God whatsoever, and in essence, "hates" God.

The question is, does God say that Job was self-righteous?

Thank you kindly.

Touche'...

well thanks for putting me at square one again for Job.

brinny · Aug 11, 2014

hahaaaaaa bless yer heart, it's one of the most difficult studies i've ever done and one of the most difficult-ly painful books to begin reading.

Thank you kindly for sharing

Setyoufree · Aug 11, 2014

You have to read the whole book of Job, not just the introduction, to come to an accurate conclusion.

brinny · Aug 11, 2014

This is an excerpt from an article that details what it means to be "righteous" in God's eyes, and why God defined Job as righteous:

Summary: Everyone has heard of the patience or endurance of Job. However, we often forget that Jobs greatest attribute, according to God, was his righteousness. In this study, we will examine Jobs righteousness and see how we can and should imitate it.

The Righteousness of Job sermon, The Righteousness of Job sermon by Scott Coltrain, Job, Proverbs - SermonCentral.com

bmjackson · Aug 12, 2014

Thank you brinny for that sermon which shows that a man who fears God cannot be self righteous. One cannot fear God if one is fooling oneself. Fear comes with knowledge of the Most high.

The righteousness that Job had, moreover, was not his own righteousness because we can see when he goes through the trial of losing the light and presence of God, a trial that is only experience d by righteous men, he is left with only his flesh which cannot see the cause of the dark night that all men must pass through for complete union with the Divine, and he cries out with the perceived injustice of God seemingly deserting him and indeed is not submitting at that point.

But that does not distract from the point of the narrative which is meant for those who are also going through the furnace and have started from a point of holiness.

A question about Job.

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